There is effectively no 'far left' in the US

[Yes_Minister]

Trump is not a classic liberal, nor did he ever claim to be. He's a former Democrat, ffs.

Here he is advocating for gun confiscation without due process:

So do social conservatives count as right wingers or not? Because that is who he is pandering to. Just saying he is a former Democrat or supported gun control ignores the role social conservatism plays in this race.

 

[Craig234]

"Classical liberal" is a phrase invented by the Right, for the Right.

We should probably explain that 'classic conservative' is someone who is like a modern 'liberal', who respects individual rights and the state caring for people.

 

[Phys251]

We should probably explain that 'classic conservative' is someone who is like a modern 'liberal', who respects individual rights and the state caring for people.

We should make that a thing.

 

[Hamish Howl]

Can anyone point me to one American who says they want the US to adopt Stalinism? To adopt Maosim? To even adopt Castroism? One. Single. American? I don't think so.

Haven't been on Facebook, I see.

 

[vanceen]

No, you've got it exactly backwards.

Suppose we had a free market in auto manufacturing across the entire USA. Explain how one auto manufacturer could prevent others in the entire country from making and selling cars, without government regulation.



Here's a real-world example of a thriving market with no monopolies, and no regulation.

Laws forbidding price-fixing are regulations, yes?

Are you suggesting that markets work better when producers can collude on prices at will?

If so, I think you're very mistaken.

 

[Hamish Howl]

Laws forbidding price-fixing are regulations, yes?

Are you suggesting that markets work better when producers can collude on prices at will?

If so, I think you're very mistaken.

Everything anarchists need to know about economics, they learned reading Ayn Rand novels.

 

[aociswundumho]

Laws forbidding price-fixing are regulations, yes?

Yes.

Are you suggesting that markets work better when producers can collude on prices at will?

Collusion regarding prices only works when the state limits entry into the market. Other than that, there is no way to collude on pricing, because it's impossible to monitor everyone, and it's impossible to prevent new competitors from coming in and undercutting you.

If so, I think you're very mistaken.

 

[soylentgreen]

Everything anarchists need to know about economics, they learned reading Ayn Rand novels.

Rand was a right wing libertarian. Anarchists are Libertarian socialists. All you're doing here is advertising your ignorance.

 

[Hamish Howl]

Rand was a right wing libertarian. Anarchists are Libertarian socialists. All you're doing here is advertising your ignorance.

Anarchists of all stripes have one thing in common that overshadows any differences.

They don't understand how humans work.

I fail to see any difference between two ideological failures, regardless of how you dress them up.

 

[soylentgreen]

Anarchists of all stripes have one thing in common that overshadows any differences.

They don't understand how humans work.

I fail to see any difference between two ideological failures, regardless of how you dress them up.

Is it a failure? Only in the sense that they failed to defend themselves when they sent such fear through the european governments that they allowed hitler to rebuild the german army.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

They have a website:
https://www.workers.org/

That is Worker's World, a site which is run by the Worker's World Party, a American Marxist- Leninist party founded back in 1959. Just because they are very few, doesn't mean they are none.

For some reason you seem to believe that "Stalinism" and "Marx-Leninism" are the same thing.

I suspect that the reason why you believe that is that you don't know what either one of them actually is.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

In an American context, I don't see the 'far left' as inherently undemocratic. I think the term can refer to undemocratic (communist vanguardist) and democratic (Green/socialist) left wing ideologues. Now if we are talking about 'radical left wing', we are definitely discussing an undemocratic leftish group which either uses force or coercion to gain or maintain political power. The ideological tape measures in Europe, Asia and South America use different labels and measure things quite differently.

Ummm, the only country that uses the "American Tape Measure"

​

is the United States of America, the rest of the world is simply out of step.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Regulation is in the Constitution. Long before Marx birth.

Maybe the US should finally admit the truth and officially announce that it is a

​

Marxist-Leninist country.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

We should probably explain that 'classic conservative' is someone who is like a modern 'liberal', who respects individual rights and the state caring for people.

A "Classic Liberal" is someone who wants to retain the good bits of society and improve the bad bits, even though doing so might not be the best thing to do for the societal subset that they belong to.

A "Classic Conservative" is someone who wants to retain every bit of society and change the bits that are good for the societal subset that they belong to, and those above it, to so that they benefit more than they already do (although they won't admit that in public).

A "Classic Revolutionary" is someone who wants to chuck out one or more of the societal subsets that rank above them and replace the chucked out bits with the societal subset that they belong to (although they won't admit that in public).

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Everything anarchists need to know about economics, they learned reading Ayn Rand novels.

More correctly "Everything anarchists need to know about economics, they learned reading Ayn Rand novels until their lips got tired."

 

[joluoto]

For some reason you seem to believe that "Stalinism" and "Marx-Leninism" are the same thing.

I suspect that the reason why you believe that is that you don't know what either one of them actually is.

Stalinism is one version of Marxism- Leninism. Marxism- Leninism was the ideology of the USSR throughout it's existence, while Stalinism was the ideology under Stalin, thus Stalinism is a subtype of Marxism- Leninism. Marxism- Leninism is the most usual version of Communism you will run into. For example Maoism and Titoism are both subtypes of Marxism- Leninism as PRC is officially Marxist- Leninist state, and so was Tito's Yugoslavia. All Communist States that has existed has been Marxist- Leninist. And talking about Stalin: he was the one who invented the term Marxism- Leninism.

 

[Craig234]

I've met two people who grew up in Tito's Yugoslavia, and they both passionately praise it.

 

[Yes_Minister]

Yes.



Collusion regarding prices only works when the state limits entry into the market. Other than that, there is no way to collude on pricing, because it's impossible to monitor everyone, and it's impossible to prevent new competitors from coming in and undercutting you.

Yeah, it's not like corporations ever teamed up to do price fixing before:

Companies are using inflation to price-gouge Americans – and making it worse | Robert Reich

Thanks to near-monopolies in many industries, corporations are seeing record profits as consumers struggle with high prices

www.google.com

Price fixing - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Also, what do you think corporations have no actual agency and can't be held responsible for their actions?

What about what the East India company and their actions in India?

East India Company - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

What about companies that use slave labor?

Redirect Notice

What about companies that poison a bunch of people?

Hawks Nest Tunnel disaster - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Hinkley groundwater contamination - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Anderson v. Cryovac, Inc. - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

What about companies that commit fraud?

Enron scandal - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

What in the Glided Age when companies allowed their workers to burn to death in a fire?

Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Also, guess what, the gas that the Nazis to commit mass murder, was developed and sold by a corporation:

IG Farben - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

What, are we not free if a corporation is not allowed to dump toxic waste into a river?

Seems like letting corporations do whatever they want doesn't promote freedom for the majority of people. Unless you are going to argue that the state put a gun to these corporations head and made them do all these terrible things.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

I've met two people who grew up in Tito's Yugoslavia, and they both passionately praise it.

As I recall (and if I'm incorrect, I'd be more than pleased to see the evidence that I am) Tito's government had a program whereby

• anyone who could produce a reasonably viable business plan could get government assisted financing to put that business plan into effect.

That financial assistance was a straight loan that had to be repaid with interest, but

• was accompanied by a rider that provided that,
  • as the new business' market share (on the national scale) increased,
  • the share of the voting (and dividend paying) stock which was owned by the government increased so that,
  • by the time the business was large enough to have an actual effect on the economy of the country the government
    • had the largest share of the business' voting (and dividend paying) stock and
    • could prevent the business from engaging in activities which were detrimental to the national welfare.
  • that share of the voting (and dividend paying) stock never exceeded 51%

How many people who have reasonably viable ideas for starting and running their own business (you know "entrepreneurs") in the US today would be more than pleased with such an arrangement?

PS - Commercial business leases very often contain clauses which tie the rental rate to the profitability of the tenant's business and those "Capitalist" clauses function in a manner very similar to the above (except that the landlord doesn't get to stop the tenant from destroying the business of other tenants or ruining the economic viability of the whole complex simply so that the tenant can make more money for themselves.

 

[Hamish Howl]

Is it a failure? Only in the sense that they failed to defend themselves when they sent such fear through the european governments that they allowed hitler to rebuild the german army.

Can you describe any successes?

 

[soylentgreen]

Can you describe any successes?

I just did, the spanish anarchists
https://www.britannica.com/topic/anarchism/Anarchism-in-Spain

The reconciliation of anarchism and syndicalism was most complete and most successful in Spain; for a long period the anarchist movement in that country remained the most numerous and the most powerful in the world.

Worked right up until franco got hitler to invade.