The world's most succinct argument against minimum wage laws

[Nickyjo]

View attachment 67319977



That's it. As you can see, making low paying jobs illegal only hurts those with low skills. It does not help them in any way.


This is a follow-up to last month's attempt where I tried, apparently in vain, to show how minimum wage laws hurt those at the bottom of the economic ladder:

The concise argument against minimum wage laws

The claim from the left is that imposing a minimum wage law helps people at the bottom of the economic ladder. Those of us on the right say it does the opposite - it harms people on the bottom. Here's the short version why: Suppose you wanted to help people who own older, low-value cars by...

debatepolitics.com

I repeat what I have posted before. Conservatives, who have at various times opposed Medicare, the ACA, unions, equal pay laws in many cases, anti-discrimination statutes, most all employee benefits in their support of management, get all weepy for workers when the topic of raising the minimum wage comes up. There is a reason why the Chamber of Commerce opposes an increase and the AFL-CIO supports it: cui bono?

 

[Montgomery]

Look at California .....................

I don't look at any part of America for examples on anything. It's completely corrupted by greedy capitalism. It's failing throughout.

 

[Montgomery]

And 80% of that 3% are part-time jobs.

What I'm hearing Liberals say is that people who are too damn lazy to get a full-time job should be paid full-time wages.



What I'm hearing is you advocate increasing the over-use, over-consumption or depletion of goods, services and resources and screw the environment so that some people can feel better about themselves.

The CPI is a composite of all forms of Inflation: Monetary, Wage, Demand-pull and Cost-push.

Wages rise when Monetary or Wage Inflation exists, but not when Demand-pull or Cost-push Inflation exist and there's a very good reason why they don't and that's because it only accelerates continued price rises.

America and the American way is failing the people. You can argue economics on either side of the coin, both Supplyside and Keynesian but neither is showing any relief to the long-suffering American.

A new fair minimum wage would represent a change in the right direction but would be next to insignificant for solving the income inequality that is the status quo American way.

Is there another country in the entire world that is as capable of providing the highest quality of life for the people as would be America?

 

[NWRatCon]

I had a good laugh a minute ago. I realized the OP was correct. It is a succinct argument, because it has no substance. Can't get more succinct than that.

 

[frontline grunt]

Why the U.S. needs a $15 minimum wage: How the Raise the Wage Act would benefit U.S. workers and their families

This fact sheet was updated February 19 with a new section on tipped workers. The federal minimum hourly wage is just $7.25 and Congress has not increased it since 2009. Low wages hurt all workers and are particularly harmful to Black workers and other workers of color, especially women of...

www.epi.org

One problem with this article and the rationale of some politicians like Sanders and Warren that are pushing so hard for this is that it looks like it is mostly based on pure theory, not practical business experience. It's like they are playing checkers not chess and basically assuming that if we just go ahead and double the minimum wage then everything else will stay more or less the same like prices, and that businesses will just happily pay more instead of cutting jobs and hours, closing down, etc.

In reality, it doesn't look nearly so simple and easy to assume that it would be a net positive, especially nationwide. For example, many union wages are directly related to the minimum wage and would be increased significantly even though already well above the minimum. Also, does it make sense to pay the dishwashers and bus-boys the same as the cooks and managers?

I don't see how this wouldn't quickly increase prices nationwide and drive some small businesses to close especially in smaller towns with fewer economic opportunities and actually end up hurting many of the poorest people it was intended to help most of all but also the middle class in the form of increased prices. Even places like Seattle can at least still buy meat from packing plants in North Dakota or wherever where the labor and cost of living is much cheaper so that's why I don't believe it's safe to assume that even if it wasn't the end of the world there that then that means it would be a good idea to impose a doubled minimum wage nationwide.

 

[vegas giants]

One problem with this article and the rationale of some politicians like Sanders and Warren that are pushing so hard for this is that it looks like it is mostly based on pure theory, not practical business experience. It's like they are playing checkers not chess and basically assuming that if we just go ahead and double the minimum wage then everything else will stay more of less the same like prices, and that businesses will just happily pay more instead of cutting jobs and hours, closing down, etc.

In reality, it doesn't look nearly so simple and easy to assume that it would be a net positive, especially nationwide. For example, many union wages are directly related to the minimum wage and would be increased significantly even though already well above the minimum. Also, does it make sense to pay the dishwashers and bus-boys the same as the cooks and managers?

I don't see how this wouldn't quickly increase prices nationwide and drive some small businesses to close especially in smaller towns with fewer economic opportunities and actually end up hurting many of the poorest people it was intended to help most of all but also the middle class in the form of increased prices. Even places like Seattle can at least still buy meat from packing plants in South Dakota or wherever where the labor and cost of living is much cheaper so that's why I don't believe it's safe to assume that even if it wasn't the end of the world there that then that means it would be a good idea to impose a doubled minimum wage nationwide.

We should not double the min wage overnight. We should gradually increase it over a number of years. It should be tied to inflation

 

[frontline grunt]

We should not double the min wage overnight. We should gradually increase it over a number of years. It should be tied to inflation

I don't have a problem with occasional increases to the minimum wage to follow inflation but I worry the planned timeline would actually mostly accelerate inflation and lead to increased unemployment and underemployment overall. What is so magical about $15/hour?

It looks like it is mostly about trying to score political points more than really thinking about realistic ways to help the poor long-term. What difference does it make to them if it doesn't work very well? Unemployed voters are probably just as likely to vote for them if not more-so than anyone actually helped by this. They can easily blame any failures on the supposedly greedy businesses instead of their own half-baked policies.

If this goes through as proposed I would mostly expect to see in 2025: 1. A higher percentage unemployed (at least compared to before COVID). 2. Significantly higher prices, rents, etc. so that $15 would now be worth more like 12$ was before. 3. Relatively fewer small businesses still open, and 4. $15/hour will still not be a livable wage in many markets and they will already be talking about jacking it up even more.

 

[vegas giants]

I don't have a problem with occasional increases to the minimum wage to follow inflation but I worry the planned timeline would actually mostly accelerate inflation and lead to increased unemployment and underemployment overall. What is so magical about $15/hour?

It looks like it is mostly about trying to score political points more than really thinking about realistic ways to help the poor long-term. What difference does it make to them if it doesn't work very well? Unemployed voters are probably just as likely to vote for them if not more-so than anyone actually helped by this. They can easily blame any failures on the supposedly greedy businesses instead of their own half-baked policies.

If this goes through as proposed I would mostly expect to see in 2025: 1. A higher percentage unemployed (at least compared to before COVID). 2. Significantly higher prices, rents, etc. so that $15 would now be worth more like 12$ was before. 3. Relatively fewer small businesses still open, and 4. $15/hour will still not be a livable wage in many markets and they will already be talking about jacking it up even more.

Min wage does work. It pulls people out of poverty and encourages them to work for it rather than rely on government benefits. Gradual increases have little impact on inflation or unemployment.

 

[screenwriter]

Min wage does work. It pulls people out of poverty and encourages them to work for it rather than rely on government benefits. Gradual increases have little impact on inflation or unemployment.

"It" doesn't "pull" people out of poverty - "it" doesn't have that power. Poverty is a mindset and until the mindset is changed the person is going to remain in poverty. When the mindset changes they will do what is necessary to get out of poverty. Like the lottery winners who go broke - they never adopted the mindset to have money.

 

[vegas giants]

"It" doesn't "pull" people out of poverty - "it" doesn't have that power. Poverty is a mindset and until the mindset is changed the person is going to remain in poverty. When the mindset changes they will do what is necessary to get out of poverty. Like the lottery winners who go broke - they never adopted the mindset to have money.

Poverty is simply a lack of money. Good pay for a hard days work does wonders to make the lives of people better

 

[SCrider]

is the OP really saying that if we raise the minimum wage that way over half our work force will be illegals???


isn't it currently like 8%?

Basically he found an uncredited meme the matched his uneducated bias and posted it as some sort of fact.

 

[cpwill]

I don't have a problem with occasional increases to the minimum wage to follow inflation but I worry the planned timeline would actually mostly accelerate inflation and lead to increased unemployment and underemployment overall. What is so magical about $15/hour?

It's alliterative. That seems to be about it.

 

[screenwriter]

Poverty is simply a lack of money. Good pay for a hard days work does wonders to make the lives of people better

So how do you explain impoverished lottery winners going broke? They certainly had lots of money when they won. And how do you explain people who rise up out of poverty without someone giving them money? And just how do you define "good pay"? Or "hard days work" for that matter? "Good pay" and "hard days work" are as individual as DNA - I'm sure a Kardashian type would laugh at the thought of doing anything for even $30 an hour where someone else would be thrilled to make that. Same with work - two people working side by side doing the same job. One has the attitude that this is a piece of cake and the other is stretched to their capacity to keep up. We should have learned by now that throwing money at it won't change it.

 

[Wayne Jr]

View attachment 67319977



That's it. As you can see, making low paying jobs illegal only hurts those with low skills. It does not help them in any way.


This is a follow-up to last month's attempt where I tried, apparently in vain, to show how minimum wage laws hurt those at the bottom of the economic ladder:

The concise argument against minimum wage laws

The claim from the left is that imposing a minimum wage law helps people at the bottom of the economic ladder. Those of us on the right say it does the opposite - it harms people on the bottom. Here's the short version why: Suppose you wanted to help people who own older, low-value cars by...

debatepolitics.com

The jobs are not made illegal tho. Nice try but this argument falls flat on its face.

 

[aociswundumho]

The jobs are not made illegal tho. Nice try but this argument falls flat on its face.

A minimum wage law makes every job below the minimum wage illegal. That's the point of it.

 

[cpwill]

The jobs are not made illegal tho. Nice try but this argument falls flat on its face.

Feel free to go out and try to get or create a job that makes $4 an hour, but, as a legal matter, I can't recommend it.

 

[Wayne Jr]

A minimum wage law makes every job below the minimum wage illegal. That's the point of it.

Those jobs are not made illegal. Those jobs just get automated. If the job were illegal then not even a machine would be allowed to do it.

 

[Wayne Jr]

Feel free to go out and try to get or create a job that makes $4 an hour, but, as a legal matter, I can't recommend it.

Pro-bono and charity work are not illegal. I regularly do free-lance work for a local charity. It's less than $4, in fact, it's $0. Well below minimum wage and perfectly legal.

 

[cpwill]

Pro-bono and charity work are not illegal. I regularly do free-lance work for a local charity. It's less than $4, in fact, it's $0. Well below minimum wage and perfectly legal.

But "can you volunteer at a soup kitchen" was not the question, was it? Twas if you can get out create a job paying $4. The kind that is illegal, because we decided to make criminals out of the poorest and most economically vulnerable among us.

 

[Wayne Jr]

But "can you volunteer at a soup kitchen" was not the question, was it? Twas if you can get out create a job paying $4. The kind that is illegal, because we decided to make criminals out of the poorest and most economically vulnerable among us.

No the task is $0. I am not paid for it.

 

[cpwill]

No the task is $0. I am not paid for it.

Indeed, but, that's not the question, is it.

 

[Wayne Jr]

Indeed, but, that's not the question, is it.

There is no question. OP claims that jobs that pay less than minimum wage are illegal. They are not. OP is wrong.

/thread.

 

[cpwill]

There is no question. OP claims that jobs that pay less than minimum wage are illegal. They are not. OP is wrong.

/thread.

Volunteer is not employment, not least as there is no pay. You are trying to conflate unlike things to avoid OPs point, which is why you will not address the $4 per hour job.

 

[frontline grunt]

Min wage does work. It pulls people out of poverty and encourages them to work for it rather than rely on government benefits. Gradual increases have little impact on inflation or unemployment.

All changes to the federal minimum wage since about 1980 have been fairly small. It looks like they were mostly adjusting for several year's worth of inflation that had already happened. So it makes sense why they wouldn't have a huge impact on inflation or unemployment so far.

This proposed change is different because it involves more than doubling the minimum wage and basically trying to change the whole meaning from basically the floor for the most basic entry-level unskilled jobs that are already only 2-3 percent of all jobs, mostly part-time and often held by teenagers or people in their early twenties only for a few years, not a permanent career, to now it's supposed to all of a sudden be more of a living wage.

It is uncharted territory on a national scale so I wouldn't have any confidence in it not resulting in increased unemployment, inflation, and small business closures even if it is gradually increased over five years. I would need to see it to believe it.

If the minimum wage can pull people out of poverty then why don't people making less than $14-15/hr that really think this will help just move to one of the cities or states that already have higher minimum wages or are planning on it? I suspect it would be a wash at best and likely only increase their level of poverty due to the higher cost of living in most cases.

 

[aociswundumho]

Those jobs are not made illegal. Those jobs just get automated. If the job were illegal then not even a machine would be allowed to do it.

The machine isn't doing the job. The operator of the machine is doing the job, in the same way the operator of a backhoe digs a hole.