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The Senate Committee's Torture Report[W:55]

Re: The Senate Committee's Torture Report

Henry David said:
In theory, it would serve the purpose of beginning to atone for the sins of the past, if one wants to view it in a traditionally Christian sort of way.

In theory it would allow the details to be examined, the offenders prosecuted and punished, and the law tuned up, if necessary, to prevent such barbarism in the future, assuming we lay claim to being a civilized country.

You know, like the Church Committee and a number of other government investigations into crimes committed by government agents.
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Yet, HD, would the additional violence and deaths be justified in what is already suspected the US did?

Seems the additional deaths can be on the ones who released the report.
 
Re: The Senate Committee's Torture Report

Jango said:
It absolutely was a pipedream. I have attributed anarchism and torture to you for logical reasons -- 1) you chastise government for doing its functions I.e. regulating the social contract with force, which is what you're criticizing. Now, boil that argument down to what it truly entails -- no government whatsoever. Why? 'Cause no government can satisfy yer requirements so only anarchism can satisfy your idealistic notions of how we should exist & 2) you would use torture to save someone's life that is near-and-dear to you.
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A torrent of gish. You're trying to convolute what I post into something you'd like it to be. What is your purpose?

In any case, this thread is not about me or you, as it seems to be degenerating into, it's about the Senate Committee's Torture Report.
 
Re: The Senate Committee's Torture Report

Bob0627 said:
A torrent of gish. You're trying to convolute what I post into something you'd like it to be. What is your purpose?

In any case, this thread is not about me or you, as it seems to be degenerating into, it's about the Senate Committee's Torture Report.
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Pulling the Officer Barbrady routine, eh?

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Re: The Senate Committee's Torture Report

mike2810 said:
What makes you think I am afraid?
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Because you used the indoctrinated term "enhanced interrogation", not torture. Even in this post you can't bring yourself to call it what it is, TORTURE. This thread is about the Senate TORTURE report, not about the Senate "enhanced interrogation" report. Even the President admitted "we tortured some folks", even though it's not WE, it's the US government that tortured many folks.

So you know the US did enhanced interrogation.
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No, the US did not do "enhanced interrogation", they did TORTURE. Some were permanently physically maimed under TORTURE, some were murdered through TORTURE, ALL were psychologically maimed through TORTURE, ALL who were TORTURED were not charged with any crimes before they were TORTURED and the vast majority were released with NO charges after being TORTURED and confined for years.

Other govt around the world have stated releasing such a report will most likely cause violence and deaths.
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And?

Glad to see your ok with that.
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Actually what I'm not ok with is that the report is going to be a white wash and no one will be prosecuted for committing TORTURE. a crime against humanity, a war crime and one that requires the prosecution of all those involved, as required by the Nuremburg Principles and other international treaties that the US is a signatory to.
 
Re: The Senate Committee's Torture Report

Bob0627 said:
Over 500 pages to read. I guess that's better than 6,700 pages but it is only the Senate Committee's "summary" as they see it.
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I'd prefer the larger version myself.
 
Re: The Senate Committee's Torture Report

Jango said:
I'd prefer the larger version myself.
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But even the toned down version is pretty scathing. It says (just from some of the paragraph titles - I haven't read it yet) the CIA used brutal and illegal torture techniques (not that any torture is legal) and that the torture yielded completely unreliable information (which is exactly what I said and you disagreed with). But you see no one is or is going to be held accountable for these blatant crimes that deceived Congress. And this is a huge problem. The message is that those in government positions can commit virtually any crime with impunity. This is the same issue with police murdering innocent people and getting away scott free. This makes this government no different than a Nazi form of government operating under the false umbrella of "democracy" as it likes to peddle itself.
 
Re: The Senate Committee's Torture Report

Bob0627 said:
A torrent of gish. You're trying to convolute what I post into something you'd like it to be. What is your purpose?

In any case, this thread is not about me or you, as it seems to be degenerating into, it's about the Senate Committee's Torture Report.
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Incorrect usage of the term....
 
Re: The Senate Committee's Torture Report

Bob0627 said:
But even the toned down version is pretty scathing. It says (just from some of the paragraph titles - I haven't read it yet) the CIA used brutal and illegal torture techniques (not that any torture is legal) and that the torture yielded completely unreliable information (which is exactly what I said and you disagreed with). But you see no one is or is going to be held accountable for these blatant crimes that deceived Congress. And this is a huge problem. The message is that those in government positions can commit virtually any crime with impunity. This is the same issue with police murdering innocent people and getting away scott free. This makes this government no different than a Nazi form of government operating under the false umbrella of "democracy" as it likes to peddle itself.
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They were granted immunity IIRC 2 years ago by the DOJ.
 
Re: The Senate Committee's Torture Report

mike2810 said:
Yet, HD, would the additional violence and deaths be justified in what is already suspected the US did?

Seems the additional deaths can be on the ones who released the report.
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It's already KNOWN what the US did Mike. Where ya been?
 
Re: The Senate Committee's Torture Report

I haven't checked the more political threads here at DP yet, but Anthony Romero's editorial/suggestion in NYT this morning makes it clear that I will no longer support ACLU.
 
Re: The Senate Committee's Torture Report

Henry David said:
I haven't checked the more political threads here at DP yet, but Anthony Romero's editorial/suggestion in NYT this morning makes it clear that I will no longer support ACLU.
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The ACLU is a double-edged sword. I support many of its causes but on occasion, it shoots itself in the foot. IMO, I'd rather there be an ACLU than not because it does bring many issues to the table (and the court) that must be exposed.
 
Re: The Senate Committee's Torture Report

mike2810 said:
Yet, HD, would the additional violence and deaths be justified in what is already suspected the US did?

Seems the additional deaths can be on the ones who released the report.
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With all due respect, that is a foolish mentality for the world's dominant military superpower that the taxpayers shell over hundreds of billions for. If some piss ant has a problem with the report and feels inspired to kill some Americans, then our multi-hundred billion dollar security apparatus will just have to do their job and might have their blank check cashed so their country can be open, honest and transparent about an unsavory aspect of our collective past, just as any liberal democracy should do. Besides, this falls into the realm of having an informed citizenry. How are we supposed to get legitimately involved in the debate without being cognizant of the relevant facts? We should not be kept in the dark, not when it comes to things like this by our shadowy compatriots.
 
Re: The Senate Committee's Torture Report

Jango said:
They were granted immunity IIRC 2 years ago by the DOJ.
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That may be but the DOJ has no constitutional authority to grant anyone immunity for committing crimes.
 
Re: The Senate Committee's Torture Report

Jango said:
With all due respect, that is a foolish mentality for the world's dominant military superpower that the taxpayers shell over hundreds of billions for. If some piss ant has a problem with the report and feels inspired to kill some Americans, then our multi-hundred billion dollar security apparatus will just have to do their job and might have their blank check cashed so their country can be open, honest and transparent about an unsavory aspect of our collective past, just as any liberal democracy should do. Besides, this falls into the realm of having an informed citizenry. How are we supposed to get legitimately involved in the debate without being cognizant of the relevant facts? We should not be kept in the dark, not when it comes to things like this by our shadowy compatriots.
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Every once in a while you post something I can agree with (for the most part). The only change I would make to the above is that transparency has nothing to do with US military power and everything to do with its constitutional mandate.
 
Re: The Senate Committee's Torture Report

Bob0627 said:
That may be but the DOJ has no constitutional authority to grant anyone immunity for committing crimes.
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Didn't stop 'em from doing it -- which if you've been paying attention at all would recognize it is a reoccurring theme: you rail against something because it is unconstitutional, I agree with you but point that that is just the way business is done in government.
 
Re: The Senate Committee's Torture Report

Bob0627 said:
The ACLU is a double-edged sword. I support many of its causes but on occasion, it shoots itself in the foot. IMO, I'd rather there be an ACLU than not because it does bring many issues to the table (and the court) that must be exposed.
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I essentially agree with you Bob, but Romero's letter is just a bridge too far IMO. I'm disgusted that he advocates pardon for Bush while at the same time complaining about no indictments in Ferguson and NYC.

No more money from me.
 
Re: The Senate Committee's Torture Report

Bob0627 said:
That may be but the DOJ has no constitutional authority to grant anyone immunity for committing crimes.
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Recall that with FISA II, the Congress granted immunity after the fact to the telecoms for the dirty work they did for NSA and the White House in 2002 in San Francisco and elsewhere.
 
Re: The Senate Committee's Torture Report

Bob0627 said:
Every once in a while you post something I can agree with (for the most part). The only change I would make to the above is that transparency has nothing to do with US military power and everything to do with its constitutional mandate.
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I would say that that change would be an incorrect one. Without the overwhelming advantage of military superiority, it is generally unwise to be transparent with certain activities because stronger folks might just get angry enough to come across your border with a million men I.e. bad national security strategy, which would be unconstitutional itself.
 
Re: The Senate Committee's Torture Report

Jango said:
Didn't stop 'em from doing it -- which if you've been paying attention at all would recognize it is a reoccurring theme: you rail against something because it is unconstitutional, I agree with you but point that that is just the way business is done in government.
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Or by a bunch of criminals. If I wasn't paying attention I wouldn't know anything about that, would I? I rail against every unconstitutional act (that I'm aware of) committed by the criminals in charge, and that happens just about 24/7.
 
Re: The Senate Committee's Torture Report

Jango said:
I would say that that change would be an incorrect one. Without the overwhelming advantage of military superiority, it is generally unwise to be transparent with certain activities because stronger folks might just get angry enough to come across your border with a million men I.e. bad national security strategy, which would be unconstitutional itself.
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It's irrelevant, the constitutional mandate requires transparency, as well as securing the individual rights of The People (with a proper defense against enemies). Remember the Jefferson quote:

"The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first."
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So the most dangerous enemy of The People is their government, not a foreign power. Without transparency, The People have no clue what these criminals may be up to and it's usually NFG.
 
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