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The scientific case for a common ancestor of humans and monkeys

I have a summer internship in a genetics lab at Northwestern University, one of the most prestigious educational institutions in the country, so I believe that I can have a little input here.

Genomic mutations CERTAINLY can be passed down from one generation to the next. I work with 48 strains of inbred Mus Musculus (aka mice). Mice are mammals and very complex organisms (definitly have organs). Inbred mice are forced to breed with only mice of the same strain, thus abstaining from genetic contamination from other strains. The strains' ancestral lineage can be traced back to one or two sources dating back to the 17th century. One of the main objectives of my research is to determine genetic Single Nucleotide Polymorphisms (or tiny genetic differences) between these strains to test whether they influence diabetic-susceptibility.

The fact of the matter is, though all of the mice originated from the same one or two strains, there are now 48 strains of mice, each with a different genetic structure. How did this happen? SNPs are mutations. They developed for some reason or another (a completely different question).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/About/primer/snps.html

http://may2005.archive.ensembl.org/Mus_musculus/genesnpview?db=&gene=ENSMUSG00000004056
(if you are adventurous)
 
thanks for this input saveChief. Working in the lab really gives perspective on how these theories come together. Napoleanic Nightingale, you should really try it... I did mine at UT Southwestern the last two years, and I saw those sometimes boring theories you read in your science book finally in action as you conduct the experiments.
 
nkgupta80 said:
thanks for this input saveChief. Working in the lab really gives perspective on how these theories come together. Napoleanic Nightingale, you should really try it... I did mine at UT Southwestern the last two years, and I saw those sometimes boring theories you read in your science book finally in action as you conduct the experiments.

:lol: No thanks, science isn't my thing. We're obviously not going to agree with eachother and I'm tired of arguing about this. I will say this...why is it that humans are so focused on wanting to know the why and how of the universe..it's not like knowing why is going to change anything.
 
why is it that humans are so focused on wanting to know the why and how of the universe..it's not like knowing why is going to change anything.

An interesting question much more in the realm of philosophy. I personally think it gives us not only purpose in life to find the truth, but it is just our inherent nature to be curious.
 
nkgupta80 said:
An interesting question much more in the realm of philosophy. I personally think it gives us not only purpose in life to find the truth, but it is just our inherent nature to be curious.

Makes me think of Franklins experiance with lighting and the kite. Wonder if he got electrocuted :lol:
 
Do any creationists here actually want to discuss this evidence?
 
no, once it becomes clear that evidence does point towards evolution, or atleast discounts creationism, they stop debating...
 
Napoleon's Nightingale said:
it's not like knowing why is going to change anything.

Aure it cahnges something. Without the whole theory of evolution it would be impossible for scientist to find a cure for some deseases. So it changes something if you know the process and the rules or laws of nature.
 
Napoleon's Nightingale said:
:lol: No thanks, science isn't my thing.
Yet, you agree against a Scientific Theory? Based on what? based on it contradicting your wishful thinking? Do you really think that is honest?
 
A senator on larry king for the creationism theory to be tought in school suggested he thought that the earth was perhaps 10 million years old. With people like that on my side id shoot myself.
 
Napoleon's Nightingale said:
I will say this...why is it that humans are so focused on wanting to know the why and how of the universe..it's not like knowing why is going to change anything.

That is the purpose of science. To find out the whys and hows of the universe, and all other things great and small.

Knowing the whys and hows does change things. Think of all the diseases that have been cured because scientists wanted to know why they occured and how to cure them.

The only reason that evolution is being challenged so much is that it contradicts what the Bible says, and Christians believe that everything in the Bible is the truth.

The truth of the matter is Creationism is a belief that is made true by a person's individual faith, and Evolution is a science that is backed up by research involving the scientific method.

:newhere:
 
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Napoleon's Nightingale said:
God created the universe therefore created the laws associated with it. He makes the laws and can break them.

If God is all powerful and all knowing, then why would he need to break one of his own rules. This would imply that one of his rules was fallible. So why would an all knowing God make a fallible rule? :confused:
 
Napoleon's Nightingale said:
1. Interesting of you to say that. Achems razor is a widely used and accepted scientific principle until someone uses it to disprove a scientific theory..then it becomes invalid. Strange isn't it? Your refutation is incorrect though given observations of the sun. It's a big round object in the sky which rises and falls so whats more likely? It rises and falls on its own or somehow someone attached a little chariot to it and and lugs it around the earth. The reason why creationism is the simplest explaination is because it only requires 1 variable..a divine being while evolution requires an incalculable number of variables making it the most complex explaination.

2.Hmmm I believe evolution is the only instance inwhich scentists use an unprovable theory to substantiate scientific and genetic claims even though they are contradictory. It is a proven fact that mutations are NOT pased on through offspring and the idea of having the exact same mutation in two beings is an astromical improbability. Even if a human did manage to pop out of another species or genus let alone millions it wouldnt' matter because that mutation would die with that being. Perhaps creationism does defy scienctific thought however the first job of a scientist is to discover the TRUTH whatever that may be not to rule something out simply because it is less desirable and/or would turn the scientific world on it's head.

3. This only proves my point. A tree grows from a seedling but they are the same species it's simply a process of metamorphosis not a result of an evolution. A seedling can't be produced by a rock..only by a tree. And the seedling of an oak tree can only be produced by an oak tree not a maple tree. Species do not evolve into other species..they simply adapt becomming different genus' within the species.

1) "God Made It" isn't a SCIENTIFIC answer to ANY question. Therefore the assumption that it could fall under the principle of Occam's Razor is false to begin with. While it is very possible that god made everything, this assumption can not be tested or falsified. The question of wether or not god created the universe and everything in it is not a question that science can or was ever intended to answer. This is something left for philosophy, humanities, theology, and personal belief.

Despite your claims, evolution does not "require an incalculable number of variables". All that is necessary is external environmental pressure and a population of breeding organisms that exchange genetic information.

2) Your second statement is the crux of the matter. Your real problem is that you have NO real understanding of evolution. That's okay, because most people don't. It isn't a difficult concept to understand, people just don't care to learn. Your ignorance is forgiveable. However, arguing that something is false without having any understanding of it isn't.

Darwin based his theory of "Descent With Modification" (the theory which later came to be known as Evolution) on the idea of natural selection. The fact that organisms adapt to surrounding environmental pressure has been observed time and time again. At this point even most proponents of ID and Creation Science acknowledge this. Well known examples of natural selection include the pepper moth, adaptation to antibiotics by bacteria, beak sizes of "Darwin's Finches", clinal species in plants, morphological and physiological adaptations by members of the same species of animals in differing environmental conditions, and ring species. All of these have come under attack by opponents of natural selection and have successfully been refuted by experiments conducted within the framework of the scientific method. That doesn't mean that you as an individual have to accept these findings. Its a free country and you have the right to believe what you want. However, it doesn't change the fact that these adaptations have been scientifically tested and confirmed. Therefore making the process of natural selection (a component of the theory of evolution) a sound Scientific idea.

Your misunderstanding of genetics (mutation in particular) is typical and sad. Even though it isn't true, the idea that evolutionary change is driven solely by deleterious point mutations is common among detractors. However, you guys never seem to take into account neutral mutation, chromosomal translocation, sexual reproduction, sexual selection, random genetic drift, and immigration and emigration of organisms into and out of a population. All of which change gene frequency and gene pool makeup (the ingredients that natural selection operates on).

Contrary to popular thought, scientists aren't looking for missing links and "hopeful monsters" to provide the norm or the proof for evolution, in fact the exact opposite is true. The theory of Evolution is based on gradual, adaptation and change to surrounding environmental pressure, not freakish immediate transitions from one organismal class to the next. While it is true that there are currently no fossils showing half reptile and half mammal, there are thousands if not millions that show gradual transitions from common ancestors to both modern day reptiles and modern day mammals. Although fundamentalists will tell you that this is a lie, it isn't. Go to a natural history museum and you can see them for yourself.

3) Most of your third statement makes no sense. But I am agoing on the assumption that it is a response to another post that I wasn't able to read. I don't know where the idea of a rock turning into a tree came from. I am hoping that it is just a bad analogy. You are correct when you say that an Oak tree seedling can not be produced by a Maple tree. However, what you apparently don't know is that NOBODY has ever said that they do. I am assuming that this is also a bad analogy, attempting to draw incorrect conclusions regarding speciation. Your right, Oak trees can't become maple trees. However oak trees and maple trees are likely descended from a common ancestor. And at some point in the future, through many years of gradual change, Oak trees and maple trees will likely be the ancestors of tree types that don't currently exist.
 
Monkeys? Sweet. I've a army of monkeys. And I'm their leader. So much for science. Cheetah tries me sometimes. But he just ain't got that thing we humans call smack. But then neither do most of you. Ungowa.
 
Napoleon's Nightingale said:
2. THE EXACT SAME mutation CAN"T be passed down from generation to gerneration. Similarities possibly but not the exact same mutation. Your example is invalid anyway because it involves human interevetion..not an occurance of the natural world. Besides, things don't evolve into seperate species they adapt into another variation of itself/a genus. A flu virus can adapt but it's still a flu virus..not a polo virus a flu virus.

You don't even know what you are talking about. You are absolutely incorrect. What do you think genetically inherited illnesses are? Where do you think male-pattern baldness comes from? How about dwarfism, trisomy 21, sickle cell anemia or MD? GOSH Nevermind the diseases. By your rationale NOTHING could be passed down from generation to generation.

Are you kidding me!?!?!?
 
zk655 said:
You don't even know what you are talking about. You are absolutely incorrect. What do you think genetically inherited illnesses are? Where do you think male-pattern baldness comes from? How about dwarfism, trisomy 21, sickle cell anemia or MD? GOSH Nevermind the diseases. By your rationale NOTHING could be passed down from generation to generation.

Are you kidding me!?!?!?


I said a mutation not a missing chromosome etc. There is an exception to the law of inheiritance anyway so that puts a stopper on evolutionary theory. You provided examples of adaptation..entirely different than evolution.
 
I said a mutation not a missing chromosome etc. There is an exception to the law of inheiritance anyway so that puts a stopper on evolutionary theory. You provided examples of adaptation..entirely different than evolution.

Evolution IS adaption. Evolution is the formation of new species (defined as a popultion of animals that can no longer breed with the original population) through the process of "natural selection" or adaptation. Evolution is simply adaption on a grand time scale.

FYI: its Occam's Razor, and don't it just make the cutting clean?
 
Napoleon's Nightingale said:
I said a mutation not a missing chromosome etc. There is an exception to the law of inheiritance anyway so that puts a stopper on evolutionary theory. You provided examples of adaptation..entirely different than evolution.


1) Missing chromosomes, translocations, changes in base pairs, frame shift mutations. These are ALL forms of mutation. THEY ARE THE SAME THING. :doh

2) Please enlighten me with this exception to inheritance as I don't believe anybody but YOU has heard of it. Perhaps you have just not phrased your statement in a form that can be understood. :3oops:

3) Of course I provided examples of adaptation. Do you know why? BEcause adaptation is a MAJOR component of EVOLUTION. Where did you get the idea that these were two seperate entities? :confused:

I feel bad for you. You have spent alot of time decrying something as being false and you have absolutely no clue or idea of how it operates. It makes as much sense as trying to perform brain surgery by reading a Reader's Digest article on planting tulips. :(

I'm not trying to pick on you. I'm sure you are a very nice person, but you have absolutely no clue or idea what you are talking about. Everything you say is ALWAYS completely 100% false. If you are really that ignorant and want to argue against evolution, you should really take a biology class, read some books on the subject, visit a museum of natural history, or talk to a biology instructor. At least you would have a little knowledge. If you know you are ignorant and are just saying these things because you want to trick people into believing what you believe, well that's just dishonest and kind of lame.
 
zk655 said:
Please enlighten me with this exception to inheritance as I don't believe anybody but YOU has heard of it. Perhaps you have just not phrased your statement in a form that can be understood. :3oops:

An experiment was done in a variety of plants. The parents had the mutation but it only lasted 1 generation. The 3rd generation rejected the mutated genes and reverted back to the genetic structure of the first generation.
 
An experiment was done in a variety of plants. The parents had the mutation but it only lasted 1 generation. The 3rd generation rejected the mutated genes and reverted back to the genetic structure of the first generation.

And this proves what? The mutation was obviously not beneficial. I certainly hope that you are not suggesting that the mutation occured simultaneously in an entire generation of plants and then reverted (in what would be another mutation if the entire generation of plants had the new gene) back to the way they were in the next generation of plants. Its damn near a statistical impossibility.

OR: If we are talking one plant with the new gene (allele in this case?) then the plant could have been mated with another plant that has a the dominant allele for the gene, which would have eliminated signs of the mutation. Hum, I should stop trying to draw upon freshman Biology class, I think I just confused my self..... <Disregard (unless of course, I turn out to be right :mrgreen: )
 
OdgenTugbyGlub said:
And this proves what? The mutation was obviously not beneficial. I certainly hope that you are not suggesting that the mutation occured simultaneously in an entire generation of plants and then reverted (in what would be another mutation if the entire generation of plants had the new gene) back to the way they were in the next generation of plants. Its damn near a statistical impossibility.

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,66995,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_7
 
Napoleon's Nightingale said:
An experiment was done in a variety of plants. The parents had the mutation but it only lasted 1 generation. The 3rd generation rejected the mutated genes and reverted back to the genetic structure of the first generation.

What was the genetic make up of the parents? Did the parents display the mutation, or were they just carriers? Did all resulting offspring of the 2nd generation display this trait? How many offspring made up each of the successive generations? Did any of them have the trait?

Just because the 2nd generation displayed the trait doesn't guarantee that their resulting offspring (3rd Generation) would express it as well, especially if the mutation required a heterozygous condition to be expressed. In fact it would only have a 50% chance of being expressed. Did the experiment follow up with the 4th, 5th, and 6th generation?

Did the study mention whether or not these plants were polyploid (a common condition in plants that increases number of Chromosomes). If this is the case it could have theoretically masked expression of the mutation for one or several generations.

If you have the journal article or a published copy of the experiment. I would love to get a link or a copy.

Regardless: I don't really see how this provides a "stopper" for evolution. In reality it shows that organisms undergo change, and are not tied down to a fixed "perfect design".
 
Napoleon's

Thanks for the link, its pretty cool stuff.

However, I still don't see how this disproves evolution. If the plants with the "hothead" ability can correct damaging mutations, wouldn't this be an arguement FOR evolution? These plants are more likely to survive a strange mutation and breed more healthy plants.
 
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