The Ryan/Republican Budget - 2012 elections

Barbbtx · Apr 19, 2011

Redress said:
Ryan's bill specifically does take from programs that benefit those people, and does reduce tax costs of the wealthy. That is part of his bill Barb.

It takes Medicaid and gives it to the states. I believe they would be better able to spend it wisely than the fed government.
The taxes he is proposing would bring corporate taxes inline with the rest of the world and would encourage American jobs. The loop holes being taken out for special interest like GE enjoys would make up for the cuts. What's the difference from 35%-25% when those like GE pay nothing due to those loopholes?

Redress · Apr 19, 2011

Barbbtx said:
It takes Medicaid and gives it to the states. I believe they would be better able to spend it wisely than the fed government.

No it does not. It turns Medicare into a voucher program that seniors can use to buy private insurance from state sponsored pools. This is entirely and completely not what you just said.

The taxes he is proposing would bring corporate taxes inline with the rest of the world and would encourage American jobs. The loop holes being taken out for special interest like GE enjoys would make up for the cuts. What's the difference from 35%-25% when those like GE pay nothing due to those loopholes?

No. Here is what the Ryan plan, as per the plan itself that I linked to says on corporate taxes:

This new rate is roughly half that of the rest of the industrialized world.

One of us is misrepresenting Ryan's plan, and it ain't me Barb.

Hicup · Apr 19, 2011

lpast said:
There were people that were gungho teaparty Nov2nd that arent for them any longer..I am one and I know others and im sure theres more middleclass republicans that are becoming aware of what the teaparty is about.
I have no crystal ball but the Ryan plan has more potential to hurt republicans than democrats with ANOTHER huge tax reduction just for the wealthiest and corporations and of course having the middle class pay through the nose for debt reduction while they enjoy another windfall. Middleclass is going to wake up to that

If the Tea Party can "stay on topic" they will gain support. That is, stay non partisan. The first thing the Tea Party needs to realize is that the GOP is full of the same kind of idiots the Democratic party has. Support fiscally responsible candidates no MATTER what color their badge says. Oh, and to be honest, if America could get away from electing lawyers, we'd do ourselves a HUGE favor..

Tim-

Barbbtx · Apr 19, 2011

Redress said:
Ryan's bill specifically does take from programs that benefit those people, and does reduce tax costs of the wealthy. That is part of his bill Barb.

Review & Outlook: Paul Ryan and His Critics - WSJ.com

• Tax cuts for "the rich." The Ryan budget outline by design does not provide many tax specifics, aside from an instruction to the Ways and Means Committee to propose a reform plan that would swap lower rates for fewer loopholes and special exclusions. This overhaul is not even a net tax cut—the instructions are to design a reform that is revenue neutral. It would hold tax receipts to their post-World War II average of between 18% to 19% as a share of the economy.

The liberal claim that this means a tax cut for the wealthy is based entirely on the fact that marginal tax rates would decline, even though the loopholes primarily benefit higher-income taxpayers. At any rate, Mr. Obama's own deficit commission also favored lowering the rates and broadening the base for a more efficient and competitive tax code.• Medicare "cuts." The Mediscare machinery is grinding into gear, and the same people who say Mr. Ryan is imposing too much pain on seniors by requiring them to pay a larger portion of their health costs also claim that he's a coward for exempting everyone in or near retirement. In other words, the soup is terrible and the portions are too small.
Mr. Ryan's plan, known as premium support, would gradually bring down health costs and spending, but it's a "cut" only in the sense of slowing the rate of growth. The premium support subsidy—for seniors to choose from a list of regulated private health plans—would start at $15,000 a year and increase annually. It is also means-tested to provide more help for lower-income seniors.

Redress · Apr 19, 2011

Barbbtx said:
Review & Outlook: Paul Ryan and His Critics - WSJ.com

Barb, that is an opinion piece. I quite specifically listed why it is in fact a tax cut for the wealthy. Note my specifics and actually linking to Ryan's plan.

Barbbtx · Apr 19, 2011

Whovian said:
something has to give people. Somethign has to be cut... someplace. We cannot tackle the debt and deficit issues by just taxing rich people, it won't work. We cannot even do it by taxing everybody (see other thread). There will HAVE to be changes in taxation, yes. But coupled with drastic spending cuts... yes, some popular programs will suffer. That's just the reality of the situation.

If Dems don't get onboard and start taking this seriously, we're in big trouble.
U.S. warned of risk of losing credit rating | The Columbian

WASHINGTON — A key credit agency issued an unprecedented warning to the United States government Monday, urging Washington to get a grip on its finances or risk losing the nation’s sterling credit rating.
For the first time, Standard & Poor’s lowered its long-term outlook for the federal government’s fiscal health from “stable” to “negative,” and warned of serious consequences if lawmakers fail to reach a deal to control the massive federal deficit.

lpast · Apr 19, 2011

Redress said:
To an extent I agree with this. One of the strengths of Bill Clinton was he took republican ideas and made him his own(see for example NAFTA), pissing off both sides in the process. What I think happens is that we have republican ideas and democratic ideas, and no one wants to look for the good in the other sides ideas.

They used to have the ability to compromise..before OBAMA and Pelosi and Reid..the liberals have caused all this vitriole, they started it last congress and when Obama took office...Obamacare was the most disgusting abuse of Power ive ever seen in my lifetime. The glaring gloating sneering face of Pelosi every step of the way made america vomit. Those 3 created the Teaparty Brats and they alone share the blame for this uncompromising assault by the teaparty...and us middleclass are stuck in the middle of it...we need to rise up and shut both sides the hell up.
The teaparty is just as bad as the far left and so are some of the CONSERVATIVES on this board and others...every republican that doesnt totally follow their creed is a <gasp> RINO to be dragged into the middle of the street and killed...

lpast · Apr 19, 2011

Redress said:
Barb, that is an opinion piece. I quite specifically listed why it is in fact a tax cut for the wealthy. Note my specifics and actually linking to Ryan's plan.

You are totally correct Redress ive read the entire ryan proposal twice and its literally a candy store of tax gimmes to the wealthiest of americans and a direct vicious assault on the quality of life for the middle class and those that can least afford it..and I doubt it will pass and ryan knew that, thats why he threw every tax deduction imaginable and the kitchen sink in there in the hopes he'll net some tax cuts FOR HIMSELF.

Redress · Apr 19, 2011

lpast said:
They used to have the ability to compromise..before OBAMA and Pelosi and Reid..the liberals have caused all this vitriole, they started it last congress and when Obama took office...Obamacare was the most disgusting abuse of Power ive ever seen in my lifetime. The glaring gloating sneering face of Pelosi every step of the way made america vomit. Those 3 created the Teaparty Brats and they alone share the blame for this uncompromising assault by the teaparty...and us middleclass are stuck in the middle of it...we need to rise up and shut both sides the hell up.
The teaparty is just as bad as the far left and so are some of the CONSERVATIVES on this board and others...every republican that doesnt totally follow their creed is a <gasp> RINO to be dragged into the middle of the street and killed...

I do not agree that it is all the democrats. They have played their part, but republicans have done their share to see that compromise is as difficult to reach as possible.

Harry Guerrilla · Apr 19, 2011

Redress said:
Ryan's plan does do the following(source:A Roadmap for America's Future | The Budget Committee Republicans):

Eliminates the Alternative Minimum Tax. This benefits only the rich

Eliminates taxes on capital gains, interest, and dividends. This benefits the rich much more than any one else.

Eliminates the socalled death tax. This benefits only the rich.

Massively reduces corporate taxes.

The AMT removal does not benefit only the rich, it hits middle class people to.
It was never indexed for inflation, so it was originally meant for the rich but it eventually started hitting middle class people because of the lack of the inflationary adjustments.

Corporate taxation represents double taxation on those who invest with a company.
Corporation pays taxes on it's profits and then the investor pays taxes on their profits after the corporation.

Redress · Apr 19, 2011

Harry Guerrilla said:
The AMT removal does not benefit only the rich, it hits middle class people to.
It was never indexed for inflation, so it was originally meant for the rich but it eventually started hitting middle class people because of the lack of the inflationary adjustments.

Corporate taxation represents double taxation on those who invest with a company.
Corporation pays taxes on it's profits and then the investor pays taxes on their profits after the corporation.

A very small amount.

Harry Guerrilla · Apr 19, 2011

Redress said:
A very small amount.

Errr no.

"The AMT exemption for 2009 is $70,950 for joint returns ($35,475 for married couples filing separately) and $46,700 on single returns. That is an increase over 2008. That means if your taxable income (plus some adjustments) is less than these amounts, you're not subject to the tax."

Your tax return, the IRS and the alternative minimum tax (AMT) - MSN Money

Zyphlin · Apr 19, 2011

Redress said:
Barb, that is an opinion piece. I quite specifically listed why it is in fact a tax cut for the wealthy. Note my specifics and actually linking to Ryan's plan.

Its an indisputable fact that Ryans plan cuts the tax rate on the wealthy. This just cant be honestly argued against and you're correct to say it.

Whether or not it significantly benefits the rich more than the poor or the middle class with regards to taxes that are actually paid, or if this will raise or lower the amount of taxes paid rather than the base rate, however is far from an open and shut case. There is a legitimate argument about those things.

So saying Ryans plan lowers the tax rate on the wealthy is correct. Suggesting that it decreases the taxes the wealthy will ultimately pay, or far more significantly benefits the rich when it comes to taxes is a far more questionable claim.

lpast · Apr 19, 2011

Harry Guerrilla said:
The AMT removal does not benefit only the rich, it hits middle class people to.
It was never indexed for inflation, so it was originally meant for the rich but it eventually started hitting middle class people because of the lack of the inflationary adjustments.

Corporate taxation represents double taxation on those who invest with a company.
Corporation pays taxes on it's profits and then the investor pays taxes on their profits after the corporation.

Corporations pay no taxs as it is GE proves that

liblady · Apr 19, 2011

Harry Guerrilla said:
Errr no.

"The AMT exemption for 2009 is $70,950 for joint returns ($35,475 for married couples filing separately) and $46,700 on single returns. That is an increase over 2008. That means if your taxable income (plus some adjustments) is less than these amounts, you're not subject to the tax."

Your tax return, the IRS and the alternative minimum tax (AMT) - MSN Money

we make a lot more than 70k and have never had to pay amt.

Harry Guerrilla · Apr 19, 2011

lpast said:
Corporations pay no taxs as it is GE proves that

You can thank all the awesomeness that is green energy credits, early write offs and other such things.
GE has been a pet of the state for some time now.

Not all corporations get to pay 0 taxes.

Harry Guerrilla · Apr 19, 2011

liblady said:
we make a lot more than 70k and have never had to pay amt.

Is your taxable income after deductions and itemization 70k?
If not that may explain it, otherwise I don't know.

Redress · Apr 19, 2011

Harry Guerrilla said:
Errr no.

"The AMT exemption for 2009 is $70,950 for joint returns ($35,475 for married couples filing separately) and $46,700 on single returns. That is an increase over 2008. That means if your taxable income (plus some adjustments) is less than these amounts, you're not subject to the tax."

Your tax return, the IRS and the alternative minimum tax (AMT) - MSN Money

What you are not including is the exemption, which is phased out starting at 112.5k for a single person.

liblady · Apr 19, 2011

Harry Guerrilla said:
Is your taxable income after deductions and itemization 70k?
If not that may explain it, otherwise I don't know.

yes, it is.

Harry Guerrilla · Apr 19, 2011

Redress said:
What you are not including is the exemption, which is phased out starting at 112.5k for a single person.

AMT hits some middle class people, admitting that it's the upper end of the middle class but still.

Redress · Apr 19, 2011

Zyphlin said:
Its an indisputable fact that Ryans plan cuts the tax rate on the wealthy. This just cant be honestly argued against and you're correct to say it.

Whether or not it significantly benefits the rich more than the poor or the middle class with regards to taxes that are actually paid, or if this will raise or lower the amount of taxes paid rather than the base rate, however is far from an open and shut case. There is a legitimate argument about those things.

So saying Ryans plan lowers the tax rate on the wealthy is correct. Suggesting that it decreases the taxes the wealthy will ultimately pay, or far more significantly benefits the rich when it comes to taxes is a far more questionable claim.

Very little of the tax rate cuts effect middle and lower class people. They get almost no gain from it, as well as for the other changes. Some of the deduction's removed(ie for mortgages) however do affect middle class people, who do not have the lower tax rate to benefit from in return.

Without knowing all the details which are not in place yet, you are technically correct, but all the evidence so far indicates that upper class people will receive tax reductions, while the middle class will ultimately pay more and lower class and the elderly will get fewer benefits from the government. While the reduction in benefits does need to happen, assuming that it is done to benefit the higher incomes, it is both a mistake, and a huge PR gain for democrats.

Again, looking at the information that Ryan himself presents, it does appear from his own words that this will benefit the wealthy. While I think down the road further tax cuts will be a good thing, and those should favor the wealthy(they do pay a larger share of taxes now on average), I do not think it is a good idea to mess with taxes or the tax system until the deficit problem is handled, and not by shifting the burden.

liblady · Apr 19, 2011

Harry Guerrilla said:
AMT hits some middle class people, admitting that it's the upper end of the middle class but still.

it does for those with specific deductions.

Harry Guerrilla · Apr 19, 2011

Redress said:
Very little of the tax rate cuts effect middle and lower class people. They get almost no gain from it, as well as for the other changes. Some of the deduction's removed(ie for mortgages) however do affect middle class people, who do not have the lower tax rate to benefit from in return.

Without knowing all the details which are not in place yet, you are technically correct, but all the evidence so far indicates that upper class people will receive tax reductions, while the middle class will ultimately pay more and lower class and the elderly will get fewer benefits from the government. While the reduction in benefits does need to happen, assuming that it is done to benefit the higher incomes, it is both a mistake, and a huge PR gain for democrats.

Again, looking at the information that Ryan himself presents, it does appear from his own words that this will benefit the wealthy. While I think down the road further tax cuts will be a good thing, and those should favor the wealthy(they do pay a larger share of taxes now on average), I do not think it is a good idea to mess with taxes or the tax system until the deficit problem is handled, and not by shifting the burden.

The wealthy benefit from the mortgage tax deduction more so than any other group.
They typically have the highest cost homes with the highest amount of deductible interest.

Redress · Apr 19, 2011

Harry Guerrilla said:
The wealthy benefit from the mortgage tax deduction more so than any other group.
They typically have the highest cost homes with the highest amount of deductible interest.

Yes, and certainly not debatable. However, let's look at a nice real world situation. My brother and my brother in law. My brother in law makes about 500k a year, while my brother makes 50k. The tax rate changes will not benefit my brother much if at all. My brother in law will pay significantly less based solely on the rate change, plus benefits much more from the interest and capital gains tax elimination. Both are buying houses, with my brother in laws house being about 3 times the cost of my brothers(100k vs 300k). My brother ends up, looking strictly at these things, paying more in tax, my brother in law, less.

Now, as Zyphlin points out, we do not know the details yet of the deductions that will be eliminated, even to the point of whether or not deductions for mortgage payments will be deductible for sure, though it is one I have heard is gone. However, eliminating deductibles will effect the middle class(in some cases dramatically), and they do not receive much if anything from the tax rate cuts and the elimination of interest and capital gains taxes.

What if...? · Apr 19, 2011

Hicup said:
If the Tea Party can "stay on topic" they will gain support. That is, stay non partisan. The first thing the Tea Party needs to realize is that the GOP is full of the same kind of idiots the Democratic party has. Support fiscally responsible candidates no MATTER what color their badge says. Oh, and to be honest, if America could get away from electing lawyers, we'd do ourselves a HUGE favor..

Tim-

I have GOT to find that Washington speech where he lists the reasons he despised political parties and describes in detail the problems resulting from a two party system.

Because DAMNED if almost all of the acrimony and divisiveness we are currently attempting to deal with wasn't predicted in considerable detail in that speech.

I'll be back!:2wave:

The Ryan/Republican Budget - 2012 elections

w will this budget affect the 2012 election?

It will help Obama/Democrats

It will help Republicans

Don't know

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