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alex said:Do these seem logical? Are they valid pointsGod gave us free will. Otherwise he'd be putting on a puppet show to amuse himself. Fine for little girls having tea parties. Nah. No logic at all. What's your point?
Gandhi>Bush said:So he is malevolent?
nkgupta80 said:assuming that an omnipotent god does exist,
i don' t think He created good or evil.
In the end good and evil are just actions with different causes and effects. It just happens so that in the human race, commiting actions that disrupt peace and happiness, nearly always leads to destruction and suffering (thus evil), while commiting actions that create peace and happiness usually leads to a better life (thus good).
Real_American15 said:Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light.
No it doesn't mean you are evil but lost in the darkness...But, with all respect, you will have to deal w/ that during Armageddon, now won't you?9TH said:So, does that mean that, since I do not have God's love present in my heart I am evil and everything I do is such?
Funny, I'm an atheist and I feel neither evil, nor cold, nor trapped in darkness.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
I totally agree with you on that.......sebastiansdreams said:The problem is that this does not take into consideration that sometimes the greatest act of love is giving one the ability to choose to love. Like a truly loving parent, there are often times when you can prevent a child from making a choice, but allow them to make that choice because you love them enough to not prevent them from their will. Free will is a gift. And it makes the fact that we love God all the more meaningful to Him, because we can choose not to.
Real_American15 said:No it doesn't mean you are evil but lost in the darkness...But, with all respect, you will have to deal w/ that during Armageddon, now won't you?
sebastiansdreams said:Like a truly loving parent, there are often times when you can prevent a child from making a choice, but allow them to make that choice because you love them enough to not prevent them from their will. Free will is a gift.
But unlike a parent, who may be wrong in their foresight and may have to watch a child's apparently poor choice come out well, God is supposed to be perfect. If God's foreknowledge is perfect, where is free will. You can only "choose" that which is foreseen and the outcome cannot be different than what is foreseen. Is this not so?
9TH said:Don't backpedal - You said that evil is what happens when there's an absence of God's love in people's hearts. How can I not be evil if I have this absence?
But unlike a parent, who may be wrong in their foresight and may have to watch a child's apparently poor choice come out well, God is supposed to be perfect. If God's foreknowledge is perfect, where is free will. You can only "choose" that which is foreseen and the outcome cannot be different than what is foreseen. Is this not so?
This explicit theology also condems the beautiful spirituality of those who venerate the earth and nature.Real American15 said:OK...I might be back-pedaling but the point I am tying to make is that without the love of God in your heart you are lost, spiritually at least.
Another prime exemplar of a self-declared theological and moral superiority. It astounds me that those who believe in God and also believe that God is the ultimate and final arbiter of good and evil... fail to recognize the inherent hypocracy of judging precisely who among us is good or evil. Either God alone determines our individual righteousness on Judgement Day, or He allows His earthly minions to pronounce verdict based on their *understanding* of the mind of God.Real American15 said:So yes i do think that those who have the absence of God's love are evil, but not the whole of them. You choose to be evil or good but if you dont beleive or at least have faith in God than your soul is "rotted with evil".
I beleive that we all have a little peice of God inside us which gives us a little bit of an ability to judge, but, with all to respect, for those who don't beleive in God than what's it to them?Tashah said:This explicit theology also condems the beautiful spirituality of those who venerate the earth and nature.
Another prime exemplar of a self-declared theological and moral superiority. It astounds me that those who believe in God and also believe that God is the ultimate and final arbiter of good and evil... fail to recognize the inherent hypocracy of judging precisely who among us is good or evil. Either God alone determines our individual righteousness on Judgement Day, or He allows His earthly minions to pronounce verdict based on their *understanding* of the mind of God.
You cannot conveniently have it both ways here. Either you understand the mind of God in which case He is not omniscient, or you preserve His omniscience by refraining from speaking as His voice. Which is it?
Does this mean that you do not love the prostitutes we're discussing in the other thread? You seem to have no problem using the law to prevent them from their will. After all, they're not your children - they're adults.sebastiansdreams said:Like a truly loving parent, there are often times when you can prevent a child from making a choice, but allow them to make that choice because you love them enough to not prevent them from their will.
God may know all the outcomes of all the choices, but if he is truly omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, he MUST know which choice I'll actually make. Does he not know who will be saved and who will be condemned even before they are born? Does he not make some vessels for honor and some for dishonor?sebastiansdreams said:I've always thought of it this way: God knows the various choices we will be given. He knows every single outcome that may come from that choice. He allows us to choose our course, a course that He is already aware of. Knowing that He was going to allow us freewill, there is no reason we should expect Him to know which path we are going to take, because He is leaving that to a mind He created.
Unlike, say, a human, a computer cannot truly choose and can only do that which it is programmed to do. Unlike, say, God, a programmer does not have perfect foreknowledge. Can a computer "choose" to shut down rather than perform one of the 300 programmed functions? Could Judas choose not to betray Christ? (no betrayal = no crucifiction = no ressurrection = no Christianity) I'm guessing God wouldn't leave that to chance.sebastiansdreams said:Look at it this way. Say you created a computer program that had three hundred different functions. You know what all of them are, and you know the outcome of those actions. But you allow the computer to select these different actions at random. So while you know the actions and outcomes (all of them) you are still allowing freedom of selection.
9TH said:WARNING - THE FOLLOWING POST IS FROM SOMEONE WHO, ACCORDING TO REAL AMERICAN15, POSSESSES A SOUL "ROTTED WITH EVIL". YOU'VE BEEN WARNED.
Does this mean that you do not love the prostitutes we're discussing in the other thread? You seem to have no problem using the law to prevent them from their will. After all, they're not your children - they're adults.
God may know all the outcomes of all the choices, but if he is truly omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, he MUST know which choice I'll actually make. Does he not know who will be saved and who will be condemned even before they are born? Does he not make some vessels for honor and some for dishonor?
Unlike, say, a human, a computer cannot truly choose and can only do that which it is programmed to do. Unlike, say, God, a programmer does not have perfect foreknowledge. Can a computer "choose" to shut down rather than perform one of the 300 programmed functions? Could Judas choose not to betray Christ? (no betrayal = no crucifiction = no ressurrection = no Christianity) I'm guessing God wouldn't leave that to chance.
FREE WILL = IMPERFECT GOD (OR NO GOD AT ALL)
PERFECT GOD = NO FREE WILL
CHOOSE WISELY
Well, "with all to respect," I'll tell you what it is to me. I don't mind the judging you seem to believe yourself qualified to do. That just proves that your God needs better recruiting skills when looking for a PR Rep. What I do mind is when you, and the others like you, take your religious judgements about the unworthiness of us all and attempt to enshrine your beliefs into the laws of my land, empowering yourselves with heavenly righteousness as you crush the liberties I cherish. And it really bugs me when you ignore the point of the post you responded to. Do you know the mind of God or don't you?Real_American15 said:I beleive that we all have a little peice of God inside us which gives us a little bit of an ability to judge, but, with all to respect, for those who don't beleive in God than what's it to them?
Real_American15 said:Im sorry for saying your heart is "rotted with evil", I think that God is both, he gave us free will but wasn't totally in the idea and he allowed Jesus to die for our sins because he also loved us. But it really does not matter because who ever created this world must love us for all we have and are able to do.
Does this mean that you do not love the prostitutes we're discussing in the other thread? You seem to have no problem using the law to prevent them from their will. After all, they're not your children - they're adults.
God may know all the outcomes of all the choices, but if he is truly omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, he MUST know which choice I'll actually make. Does he not know who will be saved and who will be condemned even before they are born? Does he not make some vessels for honor and some for dishonor?
Unlike, say, a human, a computer cannot truly choose and can only do that which it is programmed to do.
Unlike, say, God, a programmer does not have perfect foreknowledge.
Can a computer "choose" to shut down rather than perform one of the 300 programmed functions?
Could Judas choose not to betray Christ? (no betrayal = no crucifiction = no ressurrection = no Christianity) I'm guessing God wouldn't leave that to chance.
FREE WILL = IMPERFECT GOD (OR NO GOD AT ALL)
PERFECT GOD = NO FREE WILL
CHOOSE WISELY
When I said he wasn't totally in the idea, what i meant was it didn't really want to give us free will but still did.9TH said:Well, "with all to respect," I'll tell you what it is to me. I don't mind the judging you seem to believe yourself qualified to do. That just proves that your God needs better recruiting skills when looking for a PR Rep. What I do mind is when you, and the others like you, take your religious judgements about the unworthiness of us all and attempt to enshrine your beliefs into the laws of my land, empowering yourselves with heavenly righteousness as you crush the liberties I cherish. And it really bugs me when you ignore the point of the post you responded to. Do you know the mind of God or don't you?
All thanks to Tashah
Apology accepted, although you really shouldn't feel the need to apologize to me for saying what you believe. I've been called much worse.
Not sure what you mean by the "...wasn't totally in the idea..." Care to clarify?
Neither, a perfect God that loves us so much that He has given us the freedom to make the choice to follow Him or not. Your ultimatum just doens't hold up.
nkgupta80 said:He gave us free will, but then He expects us to choose the path to Him out of the many options. I mean in the ideal situation He'd expect everyone to choose his path right?
Now couldn't an omnipotent, all powerful God indirectly force us to all choose the path of righteousness? Force us in such a way, that we, in our limited mindsets, think that we are making the choice out of free-will, but in fact God is indirectly inducing us to take His path?
Couldn't He have created a universe where all the variety of choices every single one of us can take eventually lead to Him and only Him?
And secondly, why is free-will held at such a greater value than eternal bliss.
After all, we all use our free-will to get something better out of life, and achieve a happier life. So why doesn't God give us that exactly? He is all powerful now...right?
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