The Riddle of Epicurus

[nkgupta80]

Of course He could. But He practices restraint. Because lets face it, that wouldn't really be free will. It would be an illusion of free will, and God wants us to actually make the choice ourselves. There is no point in having Him choose our path for us.

Because eternity with someone you have chosen your whole life to ignore and not love would not be eternal bliss. It would be miserable for you and for Him.

You're kinda making God sound like he's a little paranoid about whether we love him or not? God shouldn't need proof for our love. Why couldn't he just have create us, skipped the whole life part and taken us straight to "heaven" or eternal bliss. Shouldn't our love for him upon creation be enough? More so, why even create us. he is eternal happiness, so why do we exist?

But based on this, and considering we do infact exist, I personally think that maybe an All Powerful God is beyond human emotions. With him, theres no love or malevolence or any emotion we've come to understand. He's beyond this love/evil stuff, and until we reach beyond that, we'll never understand why there is good and bad.

There is also the possibilty God doesn't exist. But realizing that our Universe exists, I personally believe there is an All powerful Creator.

 

[sebastiansdreams]

You're kinda making God sound like he's a little paranoid about whether we love him or not? God shouldn't need proof for our love. Why couldn't he just have create us, skipped the whole life part and taken us straight to "heaven" or eternal bliss. Shouldn't our love for him upon creation be enough? More so, why even create us. he is eternal happiness, so why do we exist?

He's not paranoid. He just wants to give us the CHOICE of loving Him or not loving Him. He doesn't NEED proof of our love, He has chosen to allow us to choose to love Him or not. None of this is what God needs, it is what God has chosen to have. Because maybe He didn't want to spend an eternity with souls that did not choose to love Him? Maybe life is a gift like a rollercoaster, a wonderful game of twists and bends that we take far too seriously? Not all did love Him upon creation, and some wanted (and still) power over Him. We exist beccause He is a creator, and He chose to create us and to do so in this fashion.

But based on this, and considering we do infact exist, I personally think that maybe an All Powerful God is beyond human emotions

You are welcome to believe what you like. But nearly every faith suggests that God has emotions. Speaking from a Christian point of view, I believe that's what the verse "let us create them in Our image means."

With him, theres no love or malevolence or any emotion we've come to understand. He's beyond this love/evil stuff, and until we reach beyond that, we'll never understand why there is good and bad.

May I ask you WHAT makes you believe that? Is this just your own intiution speaking?

There is also the possibilty God doesn't exist. But realizing that our Universe exists, I personally believe there is an All powerful Creator.

Me too.

 

[nkgupta80]

When we are all born, i assume we all loved (and still do) our parents with all our heart. Did our good parent's doubt that love? Nope. Now do the parent's upon creating the baby, expect the child to choose to love them or not as he goes? Now you can take God as an infallible parent who created us, and immediately loved us. See, I sure wouldn't need a choice if I knew from the moment I was born, that God created me, and He loves me. I'd be loving him for eternity right then and there. And I also think He'd be satisfied with that love.

The thing is, no one chooses to go away from loving god and eternal bliss. Frankly, the choice just isn't so obvious to a lot of people. For some there may be enough proof in a Loving God, for others there just isn't enough (including me). Some genuinely think they are going down the right path, when they may be going away from God. We truly never know. If everyone had a clear cut choice, they'd all, in their own free-will, definately choose the Loving God, but that choice isn't so obvious. Now why should God make that choice so muddled.

Now you may argue that the choice isn't muddled, and that other people are just not looking clearly. But many atheists and agnostics have explored all the other faiths, but they just didn't cut it for them.

 

[Tashah]

I beleive that we all have a little peice of God inside us which gives us a little bit of an ability to judge, but, with all to respect, for those who don't beleive in God than what's it to them?

It seems to me that much that ails the world today stems from religious theology and differing interpretations of that theology... the prime contemporary example being the Sunni Wahabbi interpretation of the Qur'an.

When mere mortals such as Bin Laden feel empowered by their God and religion to judge which souls are pristine and which are tarnished, the leap to religious extremism (and violence) is possible and what's more... it is sanctioned by God.

I would suggest Real American15, that you reconsider your stance of being endowed by God to determine whom among us is hallowed or tainted. Your position here is tangential to that of Islamic terrorists... who are merely doing the work of God as revealed by Mohammad.

I would also remind you that schizophrenics claim to hear the voice of God and apply this inferred righteousness to legitimize their actions.

 

[Tashah]

Say you created a computer program that had three hundred different functions. You know what all of them are, and you know the outcome of those actions. But you allow the computer to select these different actions at random. So while you know the actions and outcomes (all of them) you are still allowing freedom of selection.

As you claim to be an aspiring writer, I will assume that you read a lot of books and thus the selected quote above is neither a willful nor a wanton plagiarism.

How do I know it is published material? Because I examined the pre-publication manuscript and provided feedback to the author while attending the University of Chicago. If you wish, I can contact the publisher to delineate the precise book page and paragraph.

 

[Alex]

I think we can all agree that evil exists. That may be a strong word for it, but we all get the idea. In religious teachings, a god (or gods) created everything. Therefore, a god(s) created evil. Whether that was to allow us free will or not is irrelevant. If a god(s) created evil and they are able but not willing to prevent it, then that would make them a wicked entity themselves. They knew what harm evil would do to people and still created it. Also, if a god is "all forgiving" then what point was there in creating evil?

 

[sebastiansdreams]

As you claim to be an aspiring writer, I will assume that you read a lot of books and thus the selected quote above is neither a willful nor a wanton plagiarism.

I can honestly say this is just a simple case of great minds thinking alike. I haven't read anything to that extent, but I certainly won't publish it either

How do I know it is published material? Because I examined the pre-publication manuscript and provided feedback to the author while attending the University of Chicago. If you wish, I can contact the publisher to delineate the precise book page and paragraph.

Please do give me the above information and other citing information, I will use it in the future.

 

[sebastiansdreams]

I think we can all agree that evil exists. That may be a strong word for it, but we all get the idea. In religious teachings, a god (or gods) created everything. Therefore, a god(s) created evil. Whether that was to allow us free will or not is irrelevant. If a god(s) created evil and they are able but not willing to prevent it, then that would make them a wicked entity themselves. They knew what harm evil would do to people and still created it. Also, if a god is "all forgiving" then what point was there in creating evil?

I don't believe that God created "everything."

Look at 1 Titus 4:4 1Ti 4:4 - For everything created by God is good, and nothing should be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving

Which would to me suggest that not everything is created by God. I believe He created the universe. But I do not think that He created hatred. Or that He created pornography. Or that He created evil. Evil comes from a seperation from God's will. What God wills is good, what God creates is good. What is in opposition to this, or created outside of His will is evil.

 

[Alex]

I don't believe that God created "everything."

Look at 1 Titus 4:4 1Ti 4:4 - For everything created by God is good, and nothing should be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving

Which would to me suggest that not everything is created by God. I believe He created the universe. But I do not think that He created hatred. Or that He created pornography. Or that He created evil. Evil comes from a seperation from God's will. What God wills is good, what God creates is good. What is in opposition to this, or created outside of His will is evil.

Then where did evil come from? If it exists and a god did not create it, then they are not omnipotent.

 

[Imudman]

I don't think evil exists. Rather, evil is the absence of goodness...

 

[Dezaad]

If we were all omniscient, would any of us be evil? I think it would be quite easy to be good if one knew everything that ever was, is, and will be. One might say that God has an unfair advantage in the being good department, even if it's not true that sub-omniscience leads to more evil. As I have gone through life, I have noticed that almost all, if not all, evil could be construed as the result of fear. I venture to say that I am even more certain of this when we exclude evil that is the result of obvious insanity.

In fact, one might add that omnipotence on top of omniscience reduces fear even further. Another advantage god has in being fearless (which is not to be mistaken with having courage, since I can't see how a fearless being could experience true courage, i.e. not knowing the outcome of a good act while knowing fully that oneself is in danger, and doing it anyway). One thing Jesus can't have been manifesting on his way to that fabulous cross was courage... he (supposedly) knew the outcome. But, I do wander off the main point, perhaps. Yet, it does seem to be a moral capacity we humans have that God can't... courage. No wonder he's a jealous God <snicker snicker>.

When Eve was tempted by that ol' snake, wasn't she tripped up by her ignorance?

Would even those with the impulse to do evil remain evil in the presence of their own omniscience? Consider, if a person knows for certain that the outcome of their action is futile, then wouldn't they choose against their impulse, and choose to do good? Isn't all evil ultimately futile, and wouldn't we know this?

More to the point of the thread. Would evil have ever gotten started in the Universe had humans have started with Omniscience? If not, isn't God Malevolent after all, since he chose not to yield the tools to his creations that they would need to avoid doing evil?

 

[Imudman]

More to the point of the thread. Would evil have ever gotten started in the Universe had humans have started with Omniscience? If not, isn't God Malevolent after all, since he chose not to yield the tools to his creations that they would need to avoid doing evil?

If you believe the creation story of the Bible, then you realize that in the beginning, the world was perfect. Adam and Eve could've chosen to do good, but instead chose to disobey. That wasn't good, hence we call it evil...

 

[Dezaad]

If you believe the creation story of the Bible, then you realize that in the beginning, the world was perfect. Adam and Eve could've chosen to do good, but instead chose to disobey. That wasn't good, hence we call it evil...

You've utterly missed the point. I'm raising the notion that Adam and Eve would have been more equipped to choose good, if they were at all, if they had had the capacity of omniscience.

We're not starting, here, with the assumption that Adam and Eve could have chosen to do good.

The question that is raised is, "Is God malevolent for permitting evil?" Thus, we're discussing evil's origin.

 

[Alex]

I don't think evil exists. Rather, evil is the absence of goodness...

How can you be sure that it is not the other way around? Maybe goodness is the absense of evil. In either case, evil does exist, whether it is in the absense of something or not. If a god did not create it, then where did it come from?

 

[Stherngntlmn]

If your toddler son is learning to walk, and you notice he is about to stumble and fall, yet you allow him to fall, but comfort him and help him back up to walk again... does that make you melevolent?

I believe God is omnipotent, and that he knows that in order for our free will to truely appreciate and choose between good and evil, we must experience both. The love of God is experienced everytime a person is allowed to choose. That's not to say that God won't comfort us when evil befalls us or support us in our fight to overcome the evils of the world, but would the choice to follow God really be as meaningful if there was nothing else to choose from and no other experience to weigh the choice against?

 

[Alex]

If your toddler son is learning to walk, and you notice he is about to stumble and fall, yet you allow him to fall, but comfort him and help him back up to walk again... does that make you melevolent?

I believe God is omnipotent, and that he knows that in order for our free will to truely appreciate and choose between good and evil, we must experience both. The love of God is experienced everytime a person is allowed to choose. That's not to say that God won't comfort us when evil befalls us or support us in our fight to overcome the evils of the world, but would the choice to follow God really be as meaningful if there was nothing else to choose from and no other experience to weigh the choice against?

Yes it is malevolent to intentionally let someone fall. So a god created good and evil so we could choose? They created it knowing that it would harm people? Then, again, that god is malevolent and has evil in themselves. If a god created us in his own image, as the bible says, then this is especially true. If a god is all forgiving, then why create evil in the first place? If they are going to forgive people for their sins anyway, then why bother with evil? The only answer I can come up with is that they created it for sport. Maybe they enjoy people make wrong choices.

 

[sebastiansdreams]

Then where did evil come from? If it exists and a god did not create it, then they are not omnipotent.

Evil came from actions taken against God's will. Because God is love, we are not necessarly left to believe He created it, but rather that He simply practices it. Therefore, though He may be the creator of all "things" in earth and on heaven, couldn't it be argued that feelings and emotions existed without God needing to create them? Also, I don't think you understand the word omnipotent.

Omnipotent -
having virtually unlimited authority or influence

as according to Webster.

I don't see where you would find that He must be responsible for the creation of everything. And He does have unlimited authority, but again, it goes back to Him allowing choice right?

 

[sebastiansdreams]

l. As I have gone through life, I have noticed that almost all, if not all, evil could be construed as the result of fear. I venture to say that I am even more certain of this when we exclude evil that is the result of obvious insanity.

See Donnie Darko. This is an oversimplification.

One thing Jesus can't have been manifesting on his way to that fabulous cross was courage... he (supposedly) knew the outcome.

But though He was God on earth, He also was a man. He felt the pain of the beatings and the ridicule and then of being nailed on the cross. He was faced with temptation, and yet He never buckled. You ever jumped out of a plain? Doesn't matter how many parishutes you may have strapped to you, it doesn't get much more reassuring.

But, I do wander off the main point, perhaps. Yet, it does seem to be a moral capacity we humans have that God can't... courage

. To have courage in something wrong is not a moral act.

When Eve was tempted by that ol' snake, wasn't she tripped up by her ignorance?

No, they were both told not to eat from the tree. She was lied to, and because of her lust for power she let the serpant trick her.

Would even those with the impulse to do evil remain evil in the presence of their own omniscience?

See Adam, Eve, and Lucifer.

Consider, if a person knows for certain that the outcome of their action is futile, then wouldn't they choose against their impulse, and choose to do good? Isn't all evil ultimately futile, and wouldn't we know this?

Evil is ultimately futile, and yet it appears you aren't very sure about it. We know right from wrong, and sometimes we act against that to the point where we forget the first instance where we gave into spiritual compromise.

More to the point of the thread. Would evil have ever gotten started in the Universe had humans have started with Omniscience?

God revealed Himself openly to mankind at first. Then they began to stop listening. We know find ourselves where we are now. To "hear" God in some people's mind is to be insane.

If not, isn't God Malevolent after all, since he chose not to yield the tools to his creations that they would need to avoid doing evil?

He has allowed us the tools to choose to do His will, it is we that choose otherwise isn't it?

 

[sebastiansdreams]

If a god is all forgiving, then why create evil in the first place?

He didn't create it. It was created by those who chose to walk away from His will.

 

[Dezaad]

Either Jesus was omniscient and not human, or he was human and not omniscient. Sub-Omniscience is universally a part of the human condition, and it is not a trivial difference between God and Man that one is claimed to be omniscient and the other is patently not.

Jesus supposed lack of "buckling" would be at least partially explainable, if it had happened, by the omniscience he is claimed to have been endowed with. Even aside from that, Jesus has never "walked" in any man's shoes, even according to the Bible. The Bible records that Jesus was born sinless, and that the rest of Mankind is born steeped in it. This is also not a trivial difference, if it be true. Parachuting out of a plane is not an apt description of what happened with Jesus, either with the gravity of what is claimed to have happened to him, or with regard to his power to remain fearless. Again, omniscience precludes courage when the outcome, which is known, is desirable.

Eve was lied to, according to Christian myth, and thus she chose to disobey God. Can a person who is omniscient be lied to? Thus, this does not help you in your attempt to say that Sub-Omniscience has no bearing with regard to 'goodness'.

God most certainly did not provide the tools to avoid evil, if the Bible is true. He did, in fact, assure evil's entrance upon the Universe. Ignorance would eventually lead to disobedience. It seems to me that, despite Christian protestations to the contrary, that only a creature ignorant of God's supposed goodness would rationally choose to disobey God. If the creature is not rational, well that is another missing tool, isn't it.

The futility of many evils in the Christian list of evils pre-dates Judaism, and has been nearly universally accepted. Others not so. The tools to know them we have been developing ourselves, without the help of God, ever since we stood upright.

But though He was God on earth, He also was a man. He felt the pain of the beatings and the ridicule and then of being nailed on the cross. He was faced with temptation, and yet He never buckled. You ever jumped out of a plain? Doesn't matter how many parishutes you may have strapped to you, it doesn't get much more reassuring.


.... they (Adam and Eve) were both told not to eat from the tree. She was lied to, and because of her lust for power she let the serpant trick her.

Evil is ultimately futile, and yet it appears you aren't very sure about it. We know right from wrong, and sometimes we act against that to the point where we forget the first instance where we gave into spiritual compromise.

He has allowed us the tools to choose to do His will, it is we that choose otherwise isn't it?

 

[Alex]

Evil came from actions taken against God's will. Because God is love, we are not necessarly left to believe He created it, but rather that He simply practices it. Therefore, though He may be the creator of all "things" in earth and on heaven, couldn't it be argued that feelings and emotions existed without God needing to create them? Also, I don't think you understand the word omnipotent.


as according to Webster.

I don't see where you would find that He must be responsible for the creation of everything. And He does have unlimited authority, but again, it goes back to Him allowing choice right?

My arguement still stands with this definition. If a god has unlimited authority, then that god authorized the creation of evil. If that god is all forgiving, then why authorize its creation in the first place? If they authorized it to allow choice, knowing that choice could cuase harm, then they are malevolent. Being malevolent means they have evil in themselves. And if he did not create it, then who did? If someone else created it, a god would have to authorize it or they are not omnipotent.

 

[nkgupta80]

yeah its simple as that, For god to willingly give us qualities such as ignorance, and carnal lust for power, is just wanting us to commit "sins" and fall away from God. How is that loving us if he being omnipotent knows that many of us will fall in with the inherent qualities he gave us, and sin. All I can conclude from this is that God is malevolent, and being malevolent shows he has evil. If he didn't create evil and it's within him, then he isn't omnipotent.

 

[Imudman]

You've utterly missed the point. I'm raising the notion that Adam and Eve would have been more equipped to choose good, if they were at all, if they had had the capacity of omniscience.

We're not starting, here, with the assumption that Adam and Eve could have chosen to do good.

The question that is raised is, "Is God malevolent for permitting evil?" Thus, we're discussing evil's origin.

Then the question is flawed, because God doesn't permit evil to exist.

Blaming the creator for not making mankind better equipped is like the pot criticicizing the potter.

 

[nkgupta80]

Evil exists. God is omnipotent and capable of anything. God permits evil to exist. However galenrox is right in that evil is a necessity. But I believe its a little more complicated than evil just being a point of comparison for us to recognize good. Evil makes survival and happiness a necessity (as it is that which threatens our very existence). The fight for survival and happiness is what keeps the human race in progress. Thus evil and good keeps the human race on the move?

 

[Dezaad]

Then the question is flawed, because God doesn't permit evil to exist.

Then God doesn't exist, because evil does.

Blaming the creator for not making mankind better equipped is like the pot criticicizing the potter.

And what is wrong with that? Is not the pot made with the feature of rational thought? I know that in Romans the Bible tries to preclude this sort of criticism of God. But, then, the entire Christian racket attempts to force humankind into a mental straitjacket, of which this passage in Romans is a perfect example. Thank God I don't believe the Bible...



Besides. You're getting awfully close to the part where God is so arrogant he becomes a Calvinist. You sure you want to bring that passage up in a thread about the Riddle of Epicurus?