The reason not to help Ukraine

[justoneman]

THe EU will use various different energy methodologies to power their countries.

The day is fast approaching when not a drop of Russian oil/gas power the European continent.

The Russian GDP will be halved.

The EU are all looking at coal right now. Solar is insanely expensive electricity. The end of 2023 is a year and a half away. The situation in Ukraine will have been resolved well before then. Then Europe will quietly import Russian oil and gas.

 

[Antiwar]

From your link...
Less than 24 hours after the September 11 terrorist attacks on the United States, America’s allies in the North Atlantic Treaty Organization came together to invoke the alliance’s Article 5 defense guarantee—this “attack on one” was to be considered an “attack on all.” When it came time to implement that guarantee, however, in the form of the American-led military campaign in Afghanistan, NATO remained on the sidelines—by U.S. choice.

With respect:

Yeah, I learned that it's claimed that NATO didn't actively participate in the war on/of terror.

"On the sidelines" could mean a few different things. The way I view the "by US choice" part is that the US wanted "a coalition of approval" but also wanted to be relatively free to do what it/they thought/felt like it was their right to do.

But yes the one term mistake said NATO was antiquated and had no purpose if it could not attack terrorism . Putin has shown us that it original purpose is far from over and that is what it will stick to. It's funny how one man can change history isn't it? He single handedly gave NATO back its purpose with a vengeance.

I don't know nor care to know what T****'s reasoning for NATO being antiquated was. And I don't support P****.

Nobody should be allowed to get away with human rights abuses. But, it's all about how it's handled, for three main reasons. (1) Is that two or more wrongs don't make a right. That might sound overly simplistic, but it's not. (2) Is that humanity cannot continue abusing Earth's barely hanging on ecosystems. (3) Having nuclear weapons is extremely stupid.

"OMG, we have to save Ukraine!" Yeah, I would like to. And I would like for humanity to help to stop (then work to prevent) all human rights abuses.

 

[Rogue Valley]

"OMG, we have to save Ukraine!" Yeah, I would like to. And I would like for humanity to help to stop (then work to prevent) all human rights abuses.

I hope you find your pollyanna fantasy. But I highly suspect it won't haapen in your lifetime nor in that of your progeny.

And sometimes it requires violence to end violence.

 

[anatta]

Yes Trump was the worst offender of the Kurds so far. He practically handed them to Erdogan so he could keep his Trump hotel in Turkey.

nutz.
Erdogan was going to create his "buffer zone" along the Syrian border if the few troops we had stayed there or not
If we stayed we couldn't do anything ( because of the Turkish operaton) but we could get killed. so we left

 

[iguanaman]

nutz.
Erdogan was going to create his "buffer zone" along the Syrian border if the few troops we had stayed there or not
If we stayed we couldn't do anything ( because of the Turkish operaton) but we could get killed. so we left

The "Turkish Operation" was an assault on the Kurds. The one term mistake agreed to a retreat so as not to threaten his companies interests in Turkey and totally disregarded the wishes of our military in that regard.

On 6 October 2019, the Trump administration ordered American troops to withdraw from northeastern Syria, where the United States had been supporting its Kurdish allies.[63] The military operation began on 9 October 2019 when the Turkish Air Force launched airstrikes on border towns.[64] The conflict resulted in the displacement of over 300,000 people and has caused the death of more than 70 civilians in Syria and 20 civilians in Turkey.[65][66][51] Human rights violations have also been reported. Amnesty International stated that it had gathered evidence of war crimes and other violations committed by Turkey and Turkish-backed Syrian forces who are said to "have displayed a shameful disregard for civilian life, carrying out serious violations and war crimes, including summary killings and unlawful attacks that have killed and injured civilians".[67]

According to Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, the operation was intended to expel the SDF—designated as a terrorist organization by Turkey "due to its ties with the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK)", but considered an ally against ISIL by the Combined Joint Task Force – Operation Inherent Resolve—from the border region as well as to create a 30 km-deep (20 mi) "safe zone" in Northern Syria where some of the 3.6 million Syrian refugees in Turkey would resettle.[43] As the proposed settlement zone is heavily Kurdish demographically, this intention has been criticized as an attempt at ethnic cleansing,[68][69][70][71][72][73] a criticism rejected by the Turkish government who claimed they intended to "correct" the demographics that it alleges have been changed by the SDF.[73]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Turkish_offensive_into_north-eastern_Syria

 

[Rogue Valley]

nutz.
Erdogan was going to create his "buffer zone" along the Syrian border if the few troops we had stayed there or not
If we stayed we couldn't do anything ( because of the Turkish operaton) but we could get killed. so we left

Historical revisionism.

Erdogan didn't dare move on the Kurds without Washington's approval.

Trump delivered.

Th Kurds lost 508 militia KIA, 1,547 WIA, 73 captured, and 300,000 civilians displaced.

Female Kurdish political leader Hevrin Khalaf was captured by the radical Sunni Ahrar al-Sharqiya militia allied to Erdogan, raped and then executed.

 

[anatta]

The "Turkish Operation" was an assault on the Kurds. The one term mistake agreed to a retreat so as not to threaten his companies interests in Turkey and totally disregarded the wishes of our military in that regard.

On 6 October 2019, the Trump administration ordered American troops to withdraw from northeastern Syria, where the United States had been supporting its Kurdish allies.[63] ...
According to Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, the operation was intended to expel the SDF—designated as a terrorist organization by Turkey "due to its ties with the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK)", but considered an ally against ISIL by the Combined Joint Task Force – Operation Inherent Resolve—from the border region as well as to create a 30 km-deep (20 mi) "safe zone" in Northern Syria where some of the 3.6 million Syrian refugees in Turkey would resettle.[43] As the proposed settlement zone is heavily Kurdish demographically, this intention has been criticized as an attempt at ethnic cleansing,[68][69][70][71][72][73] a criticism rejected by the Turkish government who claimed they intended to "correct" the demographics that it alleges have been changed by the SDF.[73]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Turkish_offensive_into_north-eastern_Syria

i know all about the "buffer zone" Erdogan's excuse ( aside from the fact he considers the PKK "terrorists")
was he proposed using that border zone as a settlement area for Syrian refugees.

from the border region as well as to create a 30 km-deep (20 mi) "safe zone" in Northern Syria where some of the 3.6 million Syrian refugees in Turkey would resettle

Your fantasies aside that this was something about a "trump hotel" - the wiki link source you posted doesn't even support such. It was a CIC decision to withdrawal so we didn't get hit with collateral fire.
Lots of Turkish artillery in that op.
Then you would have had something to bitch about, and not just repeat the fact our small contingent
was a peacekeeper/ impediment to Ergodan's op
( he had already reschedules 2x before -he want going to do it again)

 

[anatta]

Historical revisionism.

Erdogan didn't dare move on the Kurds without Washington's approval.

Complete Lunacy. Erdogan doesn't listen to ANYONE when it come to killing Kurds (PKK)
He threatened NATO expansion for Finland and Sweden over it!
he was not about to stop just because we had a few troops at the garrison in Al-Tanf

 

[reinaert]

I'm biased, so I reply with my bias acknowledged: but, we help Ukraine because the alternative is the erasure of Ukraine and the Russian domination of Europe. We help Ukraine because Ukrainians are worth it, and they've proven it. We help Ukraine, because the madman's dream, from Peter to Putin, that Russia is Rome and deserves to rule Eurasia, must finally be staked through its zombie heart.

But, we also have to acknowledge that the money we've given to Ukraine utterly negates the 'we can't afford that program at home' claim of austerity promoters in both parties.

 

[iguanaman]

i know all about the "buffer zone" Erdogan's excuse ( aside from the fact he considers the PKK "terrorists")
was he proposed using that border zone as a settlement area for Syrian refugees.


Your fantasies aside that this was something about a "trump hotel" - the wiki link source you posted doesn't even support such. It was a CIC decision to withdrawal so we didn't get hit with collateral fire.
Lots of Turkish artillery in that op.
Then you would have had something to bitch about, and not just repeat the fact our small contingent
was a peacekeeper/ impediment to Ergodan's op
( he had already reschedules 2x before -he want going to do it again)

I don't believe kicking out 300,000 Kurds from their homes was any help for the refugee crisis in Syria no. Trump withdrew our troops so they could not protect the Kurds from Turkish forces like they wanted to do. It made Erdogan happy and Trump's investment in Turkey safe and you think that is all that is important?

 

[iguanaman]

Complete Lunacy. Erdogan doesn't listen to ANYONE when it come to killing Kurds (PKK)
He threatened NATO expansion for Finland and Sweden over it!
he was not about to stop just because we had a few troops at the garrison in Al-Tanf

LOL How short lived were his objections? A few weeks? Erdogan had little trouble choosing between NATO and Putin's corrupt state did he? Turkey is helping Ukraine with drones as we speak. He knows that those the side with Putin are LOSERS.

 

[justoneman]

I don't believe kicking out 300,000 Kurds from their homes was any help for the refugee crisis in Syria no. Trump withdrew our troops so they could not protect the Kurds from Turkish forces like they wanted to do. It made Erdogan happy and Trump's investment in Turkey safe and you think that is all that is important?

How many decades exactly did you want to stay in Iraq and Afghanistan? I did not realize that so many lefties were such warmongers.

 

[anatta]

LOL How short lived were his objections? A few weeks? Erdogan had little trouble choosing between NATO and Putin's corrupt state did he? Turkey is helping Ukraine with drones as we speak. He knows that those the side with Putin are LOSERS.

nothing to do with your original post or my reply

 

[anatta]

I don't believe kicking out 300,000 Kurds from their homes was any help for the refugee crisis in Syria no. Trump withdrew our troops so they could not protect the Kurds from Turkish forces like they wanted to do. It made Erdogan happy and Trump's investment in Turkey safe and you think that is all that is important?

Of course it was "no help" it was an excuse by Erdogan to kill Kurds.
Since I have to spell it out, Trump keeping forces at Al-Tanf would not have stopped Erdogan from shelling for
his "safe zone" which puts Americans in a risky situation with no "deterrent " value

The entire warmongers contingent of Congres and the NSA type freak went nutz with
"we are deserting the Kurds" because they chose not to look at what was the situation on the ground
Trump didn't want a garrison standing up to the Turkish army . Ineffective and fraught with danger

 

[iguanaman]

Of course it was "no help" it was an excuse by Erdogan to kill Kurds.
Since I have to spell it out, Trump keeping forces at Al-Tanf would not have stopped Erdogan from shelling for
his "safe zone" which puts Americans in a risky situation with no "deterrent " value

The entire warmongers contingent of Congres and the NSA type freak went nutz with
"we are deserting the Kurds" because they chose not to look at what was the situation on the ground
Trump didn't want a garrison standing up to the Turkish army . Ineffective and fraught with danger

LOL You think Erdogan would have tried to take on US forces if Trump had any balls and said no? That would have been suicide. We had no problem killing Russian mercenaries attacking the Kurds in Syria and would have made mincemeat of Turkish forces too. Erdogan knew he had a patsie with the one term mistake and he was right.

 

[anatta]

LOL You think Erdogan would have tried to take on US forces if Trump had any balls and said no? That would have been suicide. We had no problem killing Russian mercenaries attacking the Kurds in Syria and would have made mincemeat of Turkish forces too. Erdogan knew he had a patsie with the one term mistake and he was right.

absolutely delusional. Al Tanf is a tiny outpost There is a token U.S. military presence. It's not a counter in anyway to Turkish artillery.. it's already been established Erdogan wasn't going to stop his safe zone over a US garrison

 

[justoneman]

I have a question. Why did Biden decline to send long range missile systems to ukraine?

 

[iguanaman]

absolutely delusional. Al Tanf is a tiny outpost There is a token U.S. military presence. It's not a counter in anyway to Turkish artillery.. it's already been established Erdogan wasn't going to stop his safe zone over a US garrison

We had plenty of air power available you think those men were left undefended? That is delusional.

 

[anatta]

We had plenty of air power available you think those men were left undefended? That is delusional.

so what was the plan . go to war against the Turks land force by air once they hit the garrison with artillery?

 

[justoneman]

Ok how about Ukraine instead of Turkey? Why did Biden decline from sending long range missile systems to Ukraine?

 

[Nilhus]

LOL How short lived were his objections? A few weeks? Erdogan had little trouble choosing between NATO and Putin's corrupt state did he?

His objections are pretty much "alive"! Finland and Sweden WILL HAVE TO DEPORT TO TURKEY certain individuals that live in those countries and are considered terrorists by Turkey - BEFORE joining nato!

ps. putin's state is a lot less corrupt than the us and its pupptes in europe(nearly all of them bribed by the us)

He knows that those the side with Putin are LOSERS.

Lots of morons had that kind of thinking only to be proven wrong or even defeated by the Russians.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Lots of morons had that kind of thinking only to be proven wrong or even defeated by the Russians.

The Russians certainly aren't defeating the Ukrainians.

Day 132 of Putin's 3 day war.

 

[justoneman]

The Russians certainly aren't defeating the Ukrainians.

Day 132 of Putin's 3 day war.

Did Putin tell you he was going to conduct a three day war?

 

[Rogue Valley]

Did Putin tell you he was going to conduct a three day war?

He thought so.

 

[justoneman]

He thought so.

So he told you his thoughts?