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The Origin of the Universe...

nobody knows

no more than they know where all the matter that the universe is made from came from
So why is it wrong to just say we don't know and leave it at that? Why do we have to put the label "God" on it? What useful work does that do?

For all we know, a God could exist and he is doing all this like a farmer fattening up his livestock before a slaughter.
 
So why is it wrong to just say we don't know and leave it at that? Why do we have to put the label "God" on it? What useful work does that do?

For all we know, a God could exist and he is doing all this like a farmer fattening up his livestock before a slaughter.

God is fattening up his sheep of believers for an eternity to live with him in Joy rather than a hot Toaster oven.



0001_22.gif...i should run this cartoon more; Cartoon man is welcomed into heaven.......forever

be this kind of guy.

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God is fattening up his sheep of believers for an eternity to live with him in Joy rather than a hot Toaster oven.



View attachment 67563259...i should run this cartoon more; Cartoon man is welcomed into heaven.......forever

be this kind of guy.

.
Wow. OK then. I guess it's time for you to start praying 5 times a day facing towards Mecca, and book some tickets there. I hear all true believers should try to go there at least once if they can.
 
God is fattening up his sheep of believers for an eternity to live with him in Joy rather than a hot Toaster oven.



View attachment 67563259...i should run this cartoon more; Cartoon man is welcomed into heaven.......forever

be this kind of guy.

.
So this God is so petty as to need us puny humans to grovel and worship him, while he plays hide-and-seek, or otherwise he will exact a vengeance of eternal hellfire?

Wow, sounds downright psychopathic and narcissistic. You sure it's going to be that much fun hanging out with that kind of god for all eternity? It becomes a hard choice deciding between that and eternal hellfire, seems to me.
 
So why is it wrong to just say we don't know and leave it at that? Why do we have to put the label "God" on it? What useful work does that do?
For all we know, a God could exist and he is doing all this like a farmer fattening up his livestock before a slaughter.

human nature to demand others believe/do what you do I guess

yes, it could be literally anything after we die ... to believe that all this on earth just all fell into place over millions of years ? that takes exceptional faith
 
So this God is so petty as to need us puny humans to grovel and worship him, while he plays hide-and-seek, or otherwise he will exact a vengeance of eternal hellfire?

no, God is holy and expects us to be like him.

Wow, sounds downright psychopathic and narcissistic. You sure it's going to be that much fun hanging out with that kind of god for all eternity?

i don't mind; all my life has been ruff and i am no prize either.

God is my ONLY hope; glad i am not some kind of god or life on earth would be gone pretty quick.

It becomes a hard choice deciding between that and eternal hellfire, seems to me.

yeah, you basically have the choices covered.

cept heaven will be great. we will no longer have a sin nature and every day will be JOY

Atar, are you full of joy? prolly not, the car needs repair, taxes, your health and your job. politics is getting worse and not much hope in dee cee despite the rhetoric.

take a chance on God, he has everything and loves you because he does.

he will help you be holy,
which is unnatural cause we sinners and despicable creatures most days. why do you think they have to moderate this forum and have zillions of rules that i forget and maybe you to?

see what i mean?

give God a chance.


0001_17.gif,,,the Toaster looks rather depressing to me. what will you give in exchange for yur soul?

wealth, sin, et al...........think again friend.

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No we don't. We may correct mistakes but the mechanism that creates matter out of energy is well understood
Until it isn't. Then we just change the laws of physics again. The universe isn't "governed by the laws of physics" as you say. The "laws of physics" are just an imperfect means by which we go about trying to understand things. Inductive, probabilistic generalizations.
 
human nature to demand others believe/do what you do I guess

yes, it could be literally anything after we die ... to believe that all this on earth just all fell into place over millions of years ? that takes exceptional faith
It could have, or not. Just because we don't know doesn't mean we ascribe it to some God. One of the big reasons why God was invented was to explain mystery- thumderbolts, earthquakes, etc... But once you understand those, he has had to recede and be left for the bigger things we don't understand. But given the track record, it doesn't seem like a good or helpful explanation for anything.

And even if we accept the explanation of "God musta done it", the believer will then go on to confidently claim that he knows exactly what, and why, this God wants very particular things from us. It seems quite quaint and provincial to argue that the universe is pretty amazing and mysterious, and that's why our women should cover their hair with a hijab, or gay marriage is wrong, or why this God favors one politician over another, or one particular foreign policy over the other, or one particular economic policy over the other, etc... Come on, you gotta admit it gets pretty ridiculous.

It's OK to live and not know, and admit that we don't know. The consequence does not have to be nihilistic despair. You don't always have to know Ultimate Eternal Truth to know the small truths of your life and how to live your life in the here and now.
 
Now does he really need to know anything in the great causal chain of Being to understand why he should use that rock to crack that nut? Does he need to know the material science and laws of physics and chemistry to explain the hardness of the rock, or the hardness of the nut shell, and why he can use one to break the other? And even if he figured all THAT out, does he really to go further and have to have a label for the foundation of Being on which to then rest those physical and chemical laws? Otherwise he will wallow in nihilistic and existential despair and not know what to do? No, not at all. The fact that the rock breaks the nut to satisfy the hunger pangs is good enough reason on its own.

It doesn't follow that if the chimp doesn't pursue an epistemic foundation, he will necessarily fall into nihilism. Nor does it follow that what you call 'useless abstractions' are actually distracting and we somehow do better without a foundation.

Everyone has a foundation, everyone has assumptions. It's a question of how honest people are willing to be about it. I'm not saying you can't take a pragmatic position like you're trying to - you can - I just think it can be demonstrated to be very weak on metaphysical and epistemic grounds.

I do think it's kind of an implicit concession for you to even go this direction. You more or less admit there is no good argument, so we must accept brute facts on pragmatic terms, which isn't really an argument, even if I do think it's honest, which I respect.
 
It could have, or not. Just because we don't know doesn't mean we ascribe it to some God. One of the big reasons why God was invented was to explain mystery- thumderbolts, earthquakes, etc... But once you understand those, he has had to recede and be left for the bigger things we don't understand. But given the track record, it doesn't seem like a good or helpful explanation for anything.

And even if we accept the explanation of "God musta done it", the believer will then go on to confidently claim that he knows exactly what, and why, this God wants very particular things from us. It seems quite quaint and provincial to argue that the universe is pretty amazing and mysterious, and that's why our women should cover their hair with a hijab, or gay marriage is wrong, or why this God favors one politician over another, or one particular foreign policy over the other, or one particular economic policy over the other, etc... Come on, you gotta admit it gets pretty ridiculous.

It's OK to live and not know, and admit that we don't know. The consequence does not have to be nihilistic despair. You don't always have to know Ultimate Eternal Truth to know the small truths of your life and how to live your life in the here and now.

amazing how every civilization has believed in a God isn't it ?

you believe we evolved into people who always for tens of thousands of years have wanted a God in our lives ??? really ?
 
It doesn't follow that if the chimp doesn't pursue an epistemic foundation, he will necessarily fall into nihilism. Nor does it follow that what you call 'useless abstractions' are actually distracting and we somehow do better without a foundation.

Everyone has a foundation, everyone has assumptions. It's a question of how honest people are willing to be about it. I'm not saying you can't take a pragmatic position like you're trying to - you can - I just think it can be demonstrated to be very weak on metaphysical and epistemic grounds.

I do think it's kind of an implicit concession for you to even go this direction. You more or less admit there is no good argument, so we must accept brute facts on pragmatic terms, which isn't really an argument, even if I do think it's honest, which I respect.

Once you posit an ultimate foundation like that, it is almost inevitable that you will tack on a label full of all sorts of dangerous baggage. It's a Trojan horse. Leave it at the gate.

For example, once you have that foundation, then you can easily go on and decide to become some kind of Islamic martyr for ISIS, or become like Alexander Dugin and assume that somehow that means that Russian aggression against neighboring sovereign nations is OK because such a God means the Russian Orthodox Church is better than Iranian Shiite Islam. It just seems ridiculously provincial and narrow the kinds of things we ascribe to this "ground of Being". We can't seem to resist. And if we do, then it becomes a perfectly useless and sterile abstract concept. How does saying "God exists" help ground anyone's epistemology of whether subatomic particles are made out of superstrings or quantum loop gravity, or whether children are better raised with corporal punishment for discipline rather than some of the newer discipline techniques described by child psychologists?
 
amazing how every civilization has believed in a God isn't it ?

you believe we evolved into people who always for tens of thousands of years have wanted a God in our lives ??? really ?

Almost every civilization believed in a flat Earth that was at the center of the universe too. And slavery was nearly universal in all human civilizations only until recently. And also using astrology to decide human affairs like when to go to war, get married, conduct large business transactions, etc...

Just because something has been around for ever doesn't mean it's right. It's OK to grow.
 
Almost every civilization believed in a flat Earth that was at the center of the universe too.
true - they were wrong
And slavery was nearly universal in all human civilizations only until recently.
true - still around in the world today too - and they were all wrong imo

And also using astrology to decide human affairs like when to go to war, get married, conduct large business transactions, etc...
Just because something has been around for ever doesn't mean it's right. It's OK to grow.

like gravity, its also ok to be consistent and trustworthy
 
Until it isn't. Then we just change the laws of physics again. The universe isn't "governed by the laws of physics" as you say. The "laws of physics" are just an imperfect means by which we go about trying to understand things. Inductive, probabilistic generalizations.

i saw something yesterday on electrons, even that wasn't understood

Things in science today are classified as being a universal, until we make observations that they are not. Sometimes they are, and sometimes they are not.

Things in science today are classified as being a universal, until we make observations that they are not. Sometimes they are, and sometimes they are not.


Electrons used to be thought of as distinct particles at one time. One electron just looked like the other. We are now realizing now that they are not at all even distinct particles: they are just wave-like perturbations of an underlying quantum field.


 
It doesn't follow that if the chimp doesn't pursue an epistemic foundation, he will necessarily fall into nihilism. Nor does it follow that what you call 'useless abstractions' are actually distracting and we somehow do better without a foundation.

Everyone has a foundation, everyone has assumptions. It's a question of how honest people are willing to be about it. I'm not saying you can't take a pragmatic position like you're trying to - you can - I just think it can be demonstrated to be very weak on metaphysical and epistemic grounds.

I do think it's kind of an implicit concession for you to even go this direction. You more or less admit there is no good argument, so we must accept brute facts on pragmatic terms, which isn't really an argument, even if I do think it's honest, which I respect.
This all just a fancy way of you saying you believe in "God" and there's nothing anyone or anything can say otherwise.

You have made it clear that nothing can override this belief. Even going as far to say not even logic or reason because they can't be the "ultimate" assumption or whatever gibberish.

Step 1: Invent A Magical Being
Step 2: Deny Logic & Reason (while hypocritically using it)
Step 3: Claim "intellect"
 
Personally I don't see sensory experience is a reasoned conclusion.

I suppose if you want to show how every sensory experience is produced by using the rules of inference to derive a conclusion from a set of premises, that might be mildly entertaining. But as I said, let's say, arguendo, that reasoning is simply assumed.

'Sensory experience' still reasoning - you don’t just ‘see’ reasoning works. You interpret, judge, trust it’s consistent, all using logic (B)

Which premise is it that you disagree with?

'Reasoning works'.

I’m not fighting the conditional. I’m saying A has no foundation. You trust ‘reasoning works’ by reasoning, which needs logic (B) reliable first, not as a deduction, but to even judge A.

Same could also be said about 'I observe it' or 'it's consistent' or any other number of pragmatic conclusions.

It doesn't assume B. It assumes A. The fact that reasoning 'leans on logic to even start' just means that the first premise is true. A is dependent on B to even start, so if A is true, B must also be true.

So if reasoning works, the fact the the laws of logic are true can be deduced through reason, rather than simply assumed.

It does assume B, like objectively. You're treating A as a pristine fact with no baggage and I don't grant you that.

Premise 1 is not just magically true - A’s truth already assumes B’s reliability to be assessed (via observation, consistency, whatever). You're not deducing B from an independent A, you're using B to prop up A, then acting like B’s a surprise. Before the syllogism even begins your assumption of A smuggles in B.

Direct existential experience, along with loads of empirical confirmation through predictive utility., we can just say arguendo that A is simply assumed as the foundational assumption of the model.

I'm curious how long we'll go back and forth before you understand I'm NOT asking you how A feels, I'm asking how you know it's true, epistemically. Reason necessarily isn't a self-sufficient foundation since you've been unable to prove that it isn't dependent on other universals. A foundation has to stand alone and cohere the worldview, if the foundation leans (or requires) on other universals to even function, it's not ground them - it's riding them. That is incoherent.

But if you want to make the somewhat bizarre claim that direct existential experience can only be achieved working it out through some kind of reasoning process

I think you're intelligent enough to know that I'm not saying you're consciously running a syllogism every time you feel the sun hit your face, which is why I think you're being insincere. "direct existential experience" isn’t raw or unmediated, it’s understood and trusted through assumptions baked into reasoning, like logic and consistency.
 
It is things like that that make me think that you genuinely don't understand how modus ponens works.

It's equivalent to saying "if P can't be true without Q already being true, then you can't deduce that Q is true just because P is true. That's circular."

You can deduce exactly that. That's the whole point. If P can't be true without Q already being true, then P being true absolutely implies that Q must also be true."

re: 'reasoning works' is foundationless.

I didn't claim that it was. The fact that reasoning is true was not presented as a conclusion derived from premises. It was presented as an assumed premise.

First of all, not all assumptions are equal.

If we're saying reasoning is your epistemic foundation, then we're making a metalogical claim about your worldview. A premise can be assumed arguendo, but if it's the foundation for a worldview, that isn't something you can claim arguendo because if it isn't consistent, your entire worldview loses coherence.

I disagree. And so would Descartes, Spinoza, Leibniz, and the rest of the adherents of Rationalism.

Don't really care what those guys think or what rationalism posits. There are tons of obvious issues with something like Descartes cogito, which I'm happy to delve into.

As I said, I'm not too fussed about having a foundational assumption or a self-evident or self-affirming premise, so long as it is a premise that is actually necessary in order for the model to function. And reasoning is a premise that is necessary for every model to function.

'Reasoning’s necessary for every model’ doesn’t mean it grounds them. Saying that’s like claiming food grounds our existence because we all eat.

All worldviews rely on a foundation to function and cohere, the problem here is honesty.
 
Until it isn't. Then we just change the laws of physics again. The universe isn't "governed by the laws of physics" as you say. The "laws of physics" are just an imperfect means by which we go about trying to understand things. Inductive, probabilistic generalizations.
LOL No that would be religion. Science uses experimentation and data to reach conclusions and make theories. Einstein is a good example.
 
i saw something yesterday on electrons, even that wasn't understood

Things in science today are classified as being a universal, until we make observations that they are not. Sometimes they are, and sometimes they are not.
Science is only as good as it needs to be. Newtonian physics was a great way of looking at the universe until it wasn't.
 
This all just a fancy way of you saying you believe in "God" and there's nothing anyone or anything can say otherwise.

You have made it clear that nothing can override this belief. Even going as far to say not even logic or reason because they can't be the "ultimate" assumption or whatever gibberish.

Step 1: Invent A Magical Being
Step 2: Deny Logic & Reason (while hypocritically using it)
Step 3: Claim "intellect"

For the umpteenth time I'm not denying logic or reason. I agree these are real universals which we all use and assume. I'm asking posters in this thread that if God is unreasonable, what makes your near-infinite blind faith logical leap assumptions about 'why' universals have pragmatic value more reasonable? This isn't a 'word game', or 'inventing a magical being', this is maybe the most important question in epistemology, if not philosophy as a whole.

You might disagree and say that the argument for God is not good, that is a fair position. But it isn't 'magical', it's a reasoned foundation. You're going to need to provide a counter argument which is more reasonable, more coherent, and more internally consistent.
 
LOL No that would be religion. Science uses experimentation and data to reach conclusions and make theories. Einstein is a good example.
Theories are inductive, probabilistic generalizations.
 
Once you posit an ultimate foundation like that, it is almost inevitable that you will tack on a label full of all sorts of dangerous baggage. It's a Trojan horse. Leave it at the gate.

For example, once you have that foundation, then you can easily go on and decide to become some kind of Islamic martyr for ISIS, or become like Alexander Dugin and assume that somehow that means that Russian aggression against neighboring sovereign nations is OK because such a God means the Russian Orthodox Church is better than Iranian Shiite Islam.

I mean this is just an emotional appeal. Truth being used for harm isn't something that's unique to religion, much less (for the sake of this thread) a belief in a generalized, unchanging epistemic foundation. Believing this is a superfluous (or even harmful) conversation is just being an intellectual luddite.

It just seems ridiculously provincial and narrow the kinds of things we ascribe to this "ground of Being". We can't seem to resist. And if we do, then it becomes a perfectly useless and sterile abstract concept. How does saying "God exists" help ground anyone's epistemology of whether subatomic particles are made out of superstrings or quantum loop gravity, or whether children are better raised with corporal punishment for discipline rather than some of the newer discipline techniques described by child psychologists?

This just misses the point. As I've said, it's not like a thought exercise is necessary every single time you split an atom, rather that splitting an atom carries with it a giant bag of epistemic and metaphysical assumptions - what those assumptions are is what I'm calling in to question.
 
what those assumptions are is what I'm calling in to question.
The assumption is that it works- in this case to provide you with energy. Why is that not adequate? What more do you need?

Do you see my concern however, that once you go beyond that, these metaphysical assumptions can act as a Trojan horse to unload all sorts of personal opinions, tastes, and cultural biases, by force if necessary, on the unwilling?

Isn’t that what happens in the philosophy of people like Dugin, Evola, Yarvin, The Islamic Republic of Iran, and other right wing conservative/traditionalist mindsets?
 
I'm saying that grounding these in a single foundation (instead of near-infinite foundations) is far more reasonable and requires infinitely fewer leaps of faith to argue.

Yes, this is your standard repetition at this point, but it still has no merit because you have not fleshed it out. If the “single foundation” is just a figment of imagination, then it’s built on quicksand. Your claim is that the “foundation” is “divine intellect”, but have yet to note how that relates to the actuality of the world and universe in which we live. It’s just an empty phrase at this point.
And you still have not described the so-called “leaps of faith” that you ascribe to atheists. Until you do, it’s just a phrase and not a real argument.
 
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