The next state to codify the creepy moral panic of trans girl athletes: Florida

[Unbeknownst]

So contrary to what you said before when you said men shouldn't be allowed into women's changing rooms, what you actually meant was any man can use the women's changing rooms as long as they say 'I'm a woman'.

Just curious - when you say men shouldn't be allowed into women's changing rooms, how does that work on a practical level when you are prepared to allow any man access if they say they are a woman, even if they haven't altered their presentation in the slightest.

Well, on the level of students, like high schoolers, where locker rooms are more controlled, if a student identifies as female and makes it clear to the faculty she is female, using female pronouns, wearing the female uniform, etc. Then she should be given permission to use the girl's locker rooms. Anyone who is not a cisgirl or has not made it clear that they identify as female shouldn't be allowed in. Very simple.

As for regular locker rooms and bathrooms, they should work as they do now. Women and men go into the facilities that align with their gender. Sometimes a masculine woman will be stopped, sometimes cismen will wiggle through the cracks. Just leave things as they are. There's no real way to regulate which sex or gender goes where.

If you are prevented from entering a facility, you can present documentation, such as a driver's license, to prove your gender aligns with the locker room/bathroom. If you are arrested for entering a facility, you can do the same.

 

[Aristaeus]

Well, on the level of students, like high schoolers, where locker rooms are more controlled, if a student identifies as female and makes it clear to the faculty she is female, using female pronouns, wearing the female uniform, etc. Then she should be given permission to use the girl's locker rooms. Anyone who is not a cisgirl or has not made it clear that they identify as female shouldn't be allowed in. Very simple.

As for regular locker rooms and bathrooms, they should work as they do now. Women and men go into the facilities that align with their gender. Sometimes a masculine woman will be stopped, sometimes cismen will wiggle through the cracks. Just leave things as they are. There's no real way to regulate which sex or gender goes where.

If you are prevented from entering a facility, you can present documentation, such as a driver's license, to prove your gender aligns with the locker room/bathroom. If you are arrested for entering a facility, you can do the same.

Just on a technical point. The definition of female is the sex that produces ova. You can't identify as female - that makes no sense. One's gender identity does not alter one's sex.

 

[ProgressPlease]

Where I live it's common to see multiple options for bathrooms. One for "those who identify or present as male", "those who identify or present as female", "other". etc.

Single stall would solve the bathroom distraction once and for all.

 

[Unbeknownst]

Just on a technical point. The definition of female is the sex that produces ova. You can't identify as female - that makes no sense. One's gender identity does not alter one's sex.

I'm going by the dictionary definition, which says that the terms female and male can be used to refer to both sex and gender.

 

[Aristaeus]

I'm going by the dictionary definition, which says that the terms female and male can be used to refer to both sex and gender.
View attachment 67329530

I'll ignore the fact those definitions are contradictory. If a male person (the sex that produces sperm) has a 'female gender identity', are they are male or female or both?

 

[Unbeknownst]

I'll ignore the fact those definitions are contradictory. If a male person (the sex that produces sperm) has a 'female gender identity', are they are male or female or both?

Words can have multiple meanings. She would be of the male sex and the female gender.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Words can have multiple meanings. She would be of the male sex and the female gender.

He would be a male.

 

[bomberfox]

Male: of or denoting the sex that produces male gametes (sperm).

Transwomen do not produce female gametes; they produce male gametes.

Define a chair.

Definition of woman​

1a: an adult female person
b: a woman belonging to a particular category (as by birth, residence, membership, or occupation) —usually used in combinationcouncilwoman
2: WOMANKIND
3: distinctively feminine nature : WOMANLINESS
4: a woman who is a servant or personal attendant
5achiefly dialectal : WIFE
b: MISTRESS
c: GIRLFRIEND sense 2
6: a woman who is extremely fond of or devoted to something specified I'm a chocolate woman through and through, but one bite of West's banana pudding cupcake and I was sold.— Hattie Brown Garrow

Definition of woman varies just like the definition of a chair.

 

[bomberfox]

This makes absolutely NO sense. You can't have it both ways. As adults, we need to do the correct thing and make sure that female sports aren't ruined by a relatively small group of people who refuse to admit that they are cheating.

They dont go through the process to cheat lol.

 

[bomberfox]

So which changing rooms should this person use?

View attachment 67329493

This changing room malarky got cis women harassed by the police. What about those women’s lived experience?

 

[bomberfox]

I never even came close to making that claim.

Yeah. You did.. Thats the demonization part.

 

[Aristaeus]

Words can have multiple meanings. She would be of the male sex and the female gender.

So both male and female. And presumably a male who identifies as non binary would be male and at the same time neither male or female?

 

[Unbeknownst]

So both male and female. And presumably a male who identifies as non binary would be male and at the same time neither male or female?

Yes. Language is tricky. If it's confusing, you can always add the words "sex" or "gender" after "male" or "female" to make it clear what you're talking about.

Ex: "He was of the female sex."

Not that it has much to do with the actual issues at hand. It's just semantics. Since you didn't oppose what I said in #126, do you agree with that solution?

 

[gino]

They dont go through the process to cheat lol.

That's just it. There aren't set ways to govern who gets to play against whom. In Connecticut, they allowed 2 regular high school guys (that dressed as girls) to play against biological females. No hormone therapy, nothing removed, and they got to participate in female sports. There was no "process" they just identified as female and were allowed to participate as females. Not surprisingly, they dominated the Connecticut female high school track and field events that year.

What is to stop a guy from "identifying" as a female and competing, then, after a couple of years of winning the big bucks, detransitioning.

Unfortunately, even after someone has undergone transitioning, the trans women still have an unfair advantage.

 

[bomberfox]

That's just it. There aren't set ways to govern who gets to play against whom. In Connecticut, they allowed 2 regular high school guys (that dressed as girls) to play against biological females. No hormone therapy, nothing removed, and they got to participate in female sports. There was no "process" they just identified as female and were allowed to participate as females. Not surprisingly, they dominated the Connecticut female high school track and field events that year.

What is to stop a guy from "identifying" as a female and competing, then, after a couple of years of winning the big bucks, detransitioning.

Unfortunately, even after someone has undergone transitioning, the trans women still have an unfair advantage.

There are rules in place when it comes to national sports. Cis women have some natural advantages over other cis women. Its about a range. Also i gotta see a source for this thing in Connecticut

 

[bomberfox]

I support compromises though i still get called a misogynyst and im told that i hate women. Odd that.

 

[Phys251]

What you aren't looking at is the guys who just want to game the system. How long is it going to take for a guy who is ranked 250th in the world in tennis will "decide" to be female and kill the top female tennis players in every competition he enters? All it would take is pretending to be trans for a couple of years and that guy would be financially set for life. Then he could decide to go back to being a guy.

Taken to an extreme, the trans movement, unless forced to be reasonable, will be the end of female sports as we know it.

Holy SHIT. If it's actually advantageous to be trans in our transphobic society, there would be a lot of selfish people falsely claiming to be trans. The year 2020 proved just how many selfish Americans are among us.

 

[Aristaeus]

Holy SHIT. If it's actually advantageous to be trans in our transphobic society, there would be a lot of selfish people falsely claiming to be trans. The year 2020 proved just how many selfish Americans are among us.

It's advantageous to be a transwoman in women's sports.

 

[CLAX1911]

People arguing against these laws aren't doing it to advance any real cause. They're doing it to trigger people. It's provocative and that's the only reason they care remember back when it was provocative to support gay marriage? That one fell off the table because nobody cared anymore. They had to go to transgenders then they had to go to gender nonconforming and now they have to go to transitioning kids.

 

[Unbeknownst]

People arguing against these laws aren't doing it to advance any real cause. They're doing it to trigger people.

Ah, yes, the "none of the opposition are debating in good faith" argument.

remember back when it was provocative to support gay marriage? That one fell off the table because nobody cared anymore.

It's no longer a major point of discussion because that battle's largely been won in the U.S., but debate is still ongoing on DP. There's an active thread about this topic right now.

They had to go to transgenders then they had to go to gender nonconforming and now they have to go to transitioning kids.

What are you even talking about? People don't like mandatory genital inspections because they're invasive and creepy. Even if you think transwomen shouldn't compete, you have to admit that the problem could be easily solved without inspections. Just have the students bring in documentation.

 

[CLAX1911]

Ah, yes, the "none of the opposition are debating in good faith" argument.

I haven't seen any.

It's no longer a major point of discussion because that battle's largely been won in the U.S., but debate is still ongoing on DP. There's an active thread about this topic right now.

Exactly it's no longer able to provoke those stupid churchies.

What are you even talking about? People don't like mandatory genital inspections because they're invasive and creepy.

the entirety of History before a few months ago they never had that so why would they start doing that?

Even if you think transwomen shouldn't compete, you have to admit that the problem could be easily solved without inspections. Just have the students bring in documentation.

I was in school 22 years ago they didn't allow trans girls on the girls sports teams and they didn't do genital inspections so I don't know what you're talking about.

See you're not even arguing against anything real. You aren't arguing in good faith so I was correct.

 

[Unbeknownst]

Exactly it's no longer able to provoke those stupid churchies.

...No, it means there's nothing left to get riled up about. Problem was "gays can't marry." Now, gays can marry. Problem solved. No need to protest about a non-issue.

the entirety of History before a few months ago they never had that so why would they start doing that?

Title of the article is "Florida passes bill requiring some girls to undergo genital inspections for school sports"

 

[CLAX1911]

...No, it means there's nothing left to get riled up about. Problem was "gays can't marry." Now, gays can marry. Problem solved. No need to protest about a non-issue.

so you do need something new to aggravate the churchies

Title of the article is "Florida passes bill requiring some girls to undergo genital inspections for school sports"

People probably shouldn't lie about their sex. Send like it's only a problem when that behavior is promoted.

 

[Unbeknownst]

so you do need something new to aggravate the churchies

So instead of focusing on a non-issue, I focus on issues wherever I see them.

People probably shouldn't lie about their sex. Send like it's only a problem when that behavior is promoted.

Please cite me a case of a transgirl lying about her sex to compete in girl's sports. And, again, this is a problem that can be solved easily by requiring documentation. Genital inspections are unnecessary.

 

[CLAX1911]

So instead of focusing on a non-issue, I focus on issues wherever I see them.

This is a non issue

Please cite me a case of a transgirl lying about her sex to compete in girl's sports.

if she claims to be female she's lying because she isn't. Sex is biological.

And, again, this is a problem that can be solved easily by requiring documentation. Genital inspections are unnecessary.

unless that is also falsified. I don't think they'd make a law if it wasn't a problem.