The Moral Clarity of Naomi Klein (or How the Lesson of the Holocaust has been weaponized)

[Dans La Lune]

This is an excellent video about how Jewish youths are generationally re-traumatized as part of part of their upbringing, how the history of the Holocaust has been dismembered and weaponized, how Germany continues to do the wrong things and misapplies their responsibilities with regards to the Holocaust. Time-stamped at a key point.

 

[Hamish Howl]

The holocaust has been "weaponized"?

 

[Hari Seldon]

The holocaust has been "weaponized"?

Its an anti Israel post.

 

[Mr Person]

The holocaust has been "weaponized"?

The key is to say the ugliest things about Israel (a majority who country). Doesn't matter if they're fair and honest. They just gotta be super negative.

And that particular claim is of course projection. It's the most rabid anti-Israel folk who are regularly accusing Israel of perpetrating a holocaust and/or committing genocide.


(Which, dear readers in general, 10k enemy deaths and 20k+ civilian deaths, out of a population of 2.2 million and in a war of self-defense against a terrorist group who is also the government of the territory they attack from is not.)

 

[Bok Tuklo]

The key is to say the ugliest things about Israel (a majority who country). Doesn't matter if they're fair and honest. They just gotta be super negative.

And that particular claim is of course projection. It's the most rabid anti-Israel folk who are regularly accusing Israel of perpetrating a holocaust and/or committing genocide.


(Which, dear readers in general, 10k enemy deaths and 20k+ civilian deaths, out of a population of 2.2 million and in a war of self-defense against a terrorist group who is also the government of the territory they attack from is not.)

Starving children (the ones you haven’t managed to bury in rubble) is not self-defense.

 

[Hamish Howl]

Its an anti Israel post.

I kinda figured.

I was hoping for something interesting.

 

[Michael Cole]

Here's a video from an opposing viewpoint.

 

[Craig234]

It's part of the fanatical indoctrination I've posted about, which people like Finkelstein have said have made the country 'lunatics', which people who have evolved out of the indoctrination have described. People don't seem to watch the videos, though. Here are some of them:

Americans don't understand the level of bigotry in Israel

If you've ever met Americans who have a community of bigotry, you get some sense of what it's like when that happens to people. When it just seems normal and right to them, oblivious to how bigoted they are. I see all kinds of evidence of that being the case broadly in Israel. I've seen...

debatepolitics.com

Here's a specific example, the son of a famous IDF General, who evolved out of that indoctrination.

An excellent description of the situation and history of bigotry in Israel from the son of an IDF general

Worth watching for anyone to get an understanding of the situation. It's eye-opening for those who don't know it. I'd like to see anyone defending Israel watch this and respond.

debatepolitics.com

 

[Mr Person]

Starving children (the ones you haven’t managed to bury in rubble) is not self-defense.

Here's what I actually said, which was specifically about things posted by OP's creator and another similar thread-creator on the topic of the ME:

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The key is to say the ugliest things about Israel (a majority who country). Doesn't matter if they're fair and honest. They just gotta be super negative.​

​

And that particular claim is of course projection. It's the most rabid anti-Israel folk who are regularly accusing Israel of perpetrating a holocaust and/or committing genocide.​

​

(Which, dear readers in general, 10k enemy deaths and 20k+ civilian deaths, out of a population of 2.2 million and in a war of self-defense against a terrorist group who is also the government of the territory they attack from is not.)​

I'm responding to someone whose posts add up to an implicit but never-admitted conclusion that Israel has no right of self-defense. I have not seen OP's creator say so much as "ok, I agree Israel has a right to do X,Y,Z, but...". It's just "genocide! Apartheid! Israel evil!" So we weren't talking about specific tactics. I wasn't asked about blocking aid. I think it is a low blow to respond to what I said to him, who said something else, with the worst example you can think of when we weren't talking tactics, a la "so what you're saying is..." when the person said no such thing.

If you want to know what I think about specific tactics, one can always search . . .

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And you see, the comment I made above makes me sound like a fanatic. I'm not. I think Israel is doing some things that count as monstrous.​

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Example: aid. At first it made sense. Hamas seizes aid. Hamas uses aid to smuggle. But this is six months in and there is no excuse for Israel not to have a fully supply chain to end delivery plan worked out by now. None.​

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But I don't get to say that, see, because I listen to craziness about how everything Israel does is genocide ethnic cleansing with apartheid. So that's what I have to fight against. If that goes away we can agree on some things. But if it's just Israel evil, genocide genocide genocide.... I can't reach any such person. They're all-in for some other reason, because this is objectively not that.​

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There is a lot Israel should do but doesn't, and things it shouldn't do. But that doesn't justify dishonesty. It doesn't justify over the top comments. And people feel much freer to make such remarks when Israel is the target.​

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Israel acutually having a right to defend itself

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://apnews.com/live/israel-iran-drone-attack-live-updates&ved=2ahUKEwi987Cx8sKFAxWhIxAIHTdGA-YQ0PADKAB6BAgWEAE&usg=AOvVaw0x_rWlET6QUrwKkX-LWfZP This is bad. Real bad. We will see what happens now, but unlike their genocide...

debatepolitics.com

Now you might say "hypocrisy" given what I'm saying about OP's creator's posts, but... must I really include a disclaimer about every last tactic I abhor if I'm going to say Israel has a right of self-defense? I don't see any of the anti-Israel people doing that with Hamas. In fact, it was about 3 days of MAGA-style "thoughts n' prayers" for Israel followed by "whatever they do is GENOCIDE!" For a worrying number it was, before the blood dried, "Israel IS going to commit genocide". It was going to get attacked no matter what.

What I've been having to respond to are one-sided, myopic, and intentionally history-blind posts that pretend that the only things that have happened are bad things Israel does. They are posted by people who seem to have no shits to give about what was done to Israel, aka, the what why when where and how of what it does. Take account of history and it becomes far too difficult to feel justified in the extreme exclamations, no matter how evil Netanyahu may happen to be and ditto the hardest right of the bastards around him.

If I talk tactics with someone, then it'll be different. But with my fellows on the left, we aren't at the point of talking tactics. We're at the point of is there anything Israel is allowed to do and if so why aren't you saying it when you say every last thing is bad.

 

[Dans La Lune]

The holocaust has been "weaponized"?

The lesson and memory of the Holocaust, yes. Absolutely. If you watch the video you can get a sense of the point, rather than reactively clutch your pearls.

 

[Dans La Lune]

The key is to say the ugliest things about Israel (a majority who country). Doesn't matter if they're fair and honest. They just gotta be super negative.

And that particular claim is of course projection. It's the most rabid anti-Israel folk who are regularly accusing Israel of perpetrating a holocaust and/or committing genocide.

Did you watch the video? I'd wager no.

(Which, dear readers in general, 10k enemy deaths and 20k+ civilian deaths, out of a population of 2.2 million and in a war of self-defense against a terrorist group who is also the government of the territory they attack from is not.)

"The death rate in Gaza during a recent conflict has exceeded the daily death toll of any other major conflict in the 21st century. According to Oxfam, Israel’s military was killing Palestinians at an average rate of 250 people a day, which is higher than the daily death toll of conflicts in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, and Yemen."

This doesn't take into account the targeted assassination of doctors, journalists, aid workers, and even children. These are not collateral, they are targeted. Unless, through some miracle of the universe, children are coming into hospitals with bullets to the head as 'by accident'. Also, the deliberate famine. This is not due to a lack of resources. Famine, by the way, is the point at which populations are on the verge of death -- not merely hungry.

One might ask themselves, how does Israel ever expect to live side-by-side with a people they've committed untold atrocities upon?

The answer: They don't.

 

[Hamish Howl]

The lesson and memory of the Holocaust, yes. Absolutely. If you watch the video you can get a sense of the point, rather than reactively clutch your pearls.

Meh. If you can't articulate what's in the video, then why should I bother?

 

[braindrain]

Did you watch the video? I'd wager no.



"The death rate in Gaza during a recent conflict has exceeded the daily death toll of any other major conflict in the 21st century. According to Oxfam, Israel’s military was killing Palestinians at an average rate of 250 people a day, which is higher than the daily death toll of conflicts in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, and Yemen."

This doesn't take into account the targeted assassination of doctors, journalists, aid workers, and even children. These are not collateral, they are targeted. Unless, through some miracle of the universe, children are coming into hospitals with bullets to the head as 'by accident'. Also, the deliberate famine. This is not due to a lack of resources. Famine, by the way, is the point at which populations are on the verge of death -- not merely hungry.

One might ask themselves, how does Israel ever expect to live side-by-side with a people they've committed untold atrocities upon?

The answer: They don't.

Do you have some proof that Israel is actually targeting the people you claim they are targeting.
Or is this just more you making crap up.
And by the way getting shot in the head is not proof someone was targeted. Stay bullets are just as likely to hit someone in the head as any other part of their body.


So how does the Palestine people expect to live side by side with a people they’ve committed untold atrocities upon.
Or is that supposed to be different somehow.

 

[samiam5211]

The holocaust has been "weaponized"?

Israel loves using holocaust victims as human shields.

 

[Dans La Lune]

Do you have some proof that Israel is actually targeting the people you claim they are targeting.

Sniper bullets to the head, the fact Palestinians are giving civilian clothes to medical staff to prevent them from being targeted by snipers, the fact that there is full coordination with the IDF in deconfliction zones and there is still precision targeting of clearly marked aid trucks. You act surprised... are you truly, or are you being silly or something? Israel has a long, long history of this kind of targeted assassination. Not of 'Da terrorists!!!' by really anyone who wants to shed light on what is happening in the area. Journalists, especially.

Or is this just more you making crap up.
And by the way getting shot in the head is not proof someone was targeted. Stay bullets are just as likely to hit someone in the head as any other part of their body.

Right. All of these children just keep coming into the hospital with bullet wounds to the head, despite other parts of the body being 'as easy to hit'. Funny how that works out.

So how does the Palestine people expect to live side by side with a people they’ve committed untold atrocities upon

Or is that supposed to be different somehow.

Israel has 100% of the power and always has had it. And under international law, Israel can't legally claim self-defense when they are the occupier.

 

[Dans La Lune]

Meh. If you can't articulate what's in the video, then why should I bother?

"This is an excellent video about how Jewish youths are generationally re-traumatized as part of part of their upbringing, how the history of the Holocaust has been dismembered and weaponized, how Germany continues to do the wrong things and misapplies their responsibilities with regards to the Holocaust. Time-stamped at a key point."