The Maddening Illogic of the IRS 'Coverup' Conspiracy Theory

[Ockham]

Wrong on at least two counts, please visit post #34.:roll:

Irrelevant. Anything else?

 

[AJiveMan]

In the big picture, you're likely correct. However, because it's the IRS, and the people involved could have the political party they support benefit from the actions they take, this takes on a whole new dimension.

It's appalling what the IRS has done towards individuals in the past. However, in this case, it's about political power and agenda across the country, and destruction of evidence.

Well, in the past, like with MLK, and with the KKK, not much ever came of it, it was basically an outrage, not sure what the political motives would have been to try to discredit a civil rights leader, but there were probably some. With this new thing, the IRS targeted both conservative and liberals, what would have been the motivation for doing such if both were targets? Kind of confusing.

The IRS shouldn't be targeting anyone unless there's discrepancies in a group's filings. And those should be in the form of audits. Some people/groups are audited, and some are not. I'd like to ask an agent sometime what the red flags are that make the agency sit up and take notice for audits.

 

[ocean515]

Well, in the past, like with MLK, and with the KKK, not much ever came of it, it was basically an outrage, not sure what the political motives would have been to try to discredit a civil rights leader, but there were probably some. With this new thing, the IRS targeted both conservative and liberals, what would have been the motivation for doing such if both were targets? Kind of confusing.

The IRS shouldn't be targeting anyone unless there's discrepancies in a group's filings. And those should be in the form of audits. Some people/groups are audited, and some are not. I'd like to ask an agent sometime what the red flags are that make the agency sit up and take notice for audits.

First, let me correct something that is becoming more and more frequent in discussions on this topic. That relates to the effort to imply both sides of the political coin were scrutinized equally. I've read nothing to suggest this is true. In fact, I've read the opposite.

For example:

IRS: Progressive groups flagged, but tea party bigger target - CBS News

Acting IRS commissioner Danny Werfel told Congress Thursday that progressive groups seeking tax-exempt status were inappropriately flagged by IRS officials, in addition to tea party and conservative groups.

At the same time, a letter from a Treasury Department watchdog to Congress suggests that while progressives were flagged, tea party groups were subject to a much higher level of scrutiny.​

If you can steer me to newer information that shows there was equal scrutiny, I'd be glad to read it.

 

[Maenad]

Um, not exactly. I wish not to derail the topic, but does US outdated equipment sent to Iraq for troops to use ring a bell at all?

Soldiers are not government bureaucrats like the IRS. I am fully convinced that the IRS has the best IT equipment and services that money can buy.

 

[Maenad]

I was an IT programmer at Tektronix, in Beaverton for 27 years , so I am not dumb as dirt as you say. The fact is IRS backed up their emails on digital tape and recycled those tapes every 6 months.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/24/u...-lerners-lost-emails-in-irs-scandal.html?_r=0

That may be what you have been told. However, unless you worked there, you couldn't possibly know.

Besides they aren't claiming that the files were destroyed due to reuse of the storage device. They are claiming that the computers malfunctioned.

 

[Mason66]

Soldiers are not government bureaucrats like the IRS. I am fully convinced that the IRS has the best IT equipment and services that money can buy.

Why does the computer continue to be a sticking point?

The emails went through servers that did not crash and have a record of the emails, so why focus on one computer?

 

[Maenad]

This is why.

Most people, wrongly, tend to think that if they cooperate and talk it will help them. It never does. But invoking the 5th in a congressional hearing or trial is an entirely different matter. In the trial or congressional hearing the person would have legal counsel present, not necessarily the case if you are alone with the police.

 

[Maenad]

Why does the computer continue to be a sticking point?

The emails went through servers that did not crash and have a record of the emails, so why focus on one computer?

Because they think the body politic is stupid enough to believe it.

 

[AJiveMan]

First, let me correct something that is becoming more and more frequent in discussions on this topic. That relates to the effort to imply both sides of the political coin were scrutinized equally. I've read nothing to suggest this is true. In fact, I've read the opposite.

For example:

IRS: Progressive groups flagged, but tea party bigger target - CBS News

Acting IRS commissioner Danny Werfel told Congress Thursday that progressive groups seeking tax-exempt status were inappropriately flagged by IRS officials, in addition to tea party and conservative groups.

At the same time, a letter from a Treasury Department watchdog to Congress suggests that while progressives were flagged, tea party groups were subject to a much higher level of scrutiny.​

If you can steer me to newer information that shows there was equal scrutiny, I'd be glad to read it.

New Documents Show the IRS Targeted 'Progressive' and 'Tea Party' Groups for Extra Scrutiny - The Wire


Here was the Google search;

https://www.google.com/webhp?source...espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=irs targeted liberal groups

 

[Mason66]

Because they think the body politic is stupid enough to believe it.

That is for sure.

 

[ocean515]

New Documents Show the IRS Targeted 'Progressive' and 'Tea Party' Groups for Extra Scrutiny - The Wire


Here was the Google search;

https://www.google.com/webhp?source...espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=irs targeted liberal groups

Forgive me, but there is not a chance I would take anything from Progressive Machine members like ThinkProgress or the others at the top of your list. Never going to happen. If that's where your at, then we'll have to leave the point alone.

 

[AJiveMan]

Forgive me, but there is not a chance I would take anything from Progressive Machine members like ThinkProgress or the others at the top of your list. Never going to happen. If that's where your at, then we'll have to leave the point alone.

Oh why am I not surprised.

 

[clownboy]

I was an IT programmer at Tektronix, in Beaverton for 27 years , so I am not dumb as dirt as you say. The fact is IRS backed up their emails on digital tape and recycled those tapes every 6 months.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/24/u...-lerners-lost-emails-in-irs-scandal.html?_r=0

Which is against SOP for the IRS which requires citizens to keep their records for 5 years. In fact when the Bush admin "lost" a bunch of emails, back before the IRS system was finished with it's network upgrade, new rules were set in place to ensure it didn't happen again.

But back up a bit here - the original excuse the IRS used was that they had a hard drive crash. Now it's a tape recycle.

And it's no great claim working for Tektronics. I wrote their first web site and have known several of their engineers. Live right next door to one that retired about ten years ago. They are clueless where it comes to IT. Hardware is their game.

 

[ocean515]

Oh why am I not surprised.

You shouldn't be. The Progressive Machine is very skilled at creating facts. They count on their members to believe them.

Here are some facts from an April 7, 2014 House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, with cites, and background.

http://oversight.house.gov/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/4-7-2014-IRS-Staff-Report-w-appendix.pdf

IRS’s three “test” cases were all conservative organizations: Prescott Tea Party, American Junto, the Albuquerque Tea Party. (pp. 14-18)

◦Congressional Democrats made misleading claims about the targeting. Democratic Members of Congress, including Ranking Member Elijah Cummings, Ranking Member Sander Levin, and Representative Gerry Connolly, made misleading claims that the IRS targeted liberal-oriented groups based on documents selectively produced by the IRS. (pp. 7-13)

◦IRS selectively released documents supporting the misleading claims. The IRS cited 6103 protections for taxpayer information to withhold details about the targeting from the American public, but reversed its decision in August 2013 to release information helpful to its cause. (pp. 11)

◦MYTH: Progressive groups were also targeted.Only seven applications in the IRS backlog contained the word “progressive,” all of which were then approved by the IRS, while Tea Party groups received unprecedented review and experienced years-long delays. While some liberal-oriented groups were singled out for scrutiny, evidence shows it was due to non-political reasons. (pp. 32-35)​

 

[AJiveMan]

You shouldn't be. The Progressive Machine is very skilled at creating facts. They count on their members to believe them.

Here are some facts from an April 7, 2014 House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, with cites, and background.

http://oversight.house.gov/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/4-7-2014-IRS-Staff-Report-w-appendix.pdf

IRS’s three “test” cases were all conservative organizations: Prescott Tea Party, American Junto, the Albuquerque Tea Party. (pp. 14-18)

◦Congressional Democrats made misleading claims about the targeting. Democratic Members of Congress, including Ranking Member Elijah Cummings, Ranking Member Sander Levin, and Representative Gerry Connolly, made misleading claims that the IRS targeted liberal-oriented groups based on documents selectively produced by the IRS. (pp. 7-13)

◦IRS selectively released documents supporting the misleading claims. The IRS cited 6103 protections for taxpayer information to withhold details about the targeting from the American public, but reversed its decision in August 2013 to release information helpful to its cause. (pp. 11)

◦MYTH: Progressive groups were also targeted.Only seven applications in the IRS backlog contained the word “progressive,” all of which were then approved by the IRS, while Tea Party groups received unprecedented review and experienced years-long delays. While some liberal-oriented groups were singled out for scrutiny, evidence shows it was due to non-political reasons. (pp. 32-35)​

house.gov isn't the very least biased, is it.

 

[ocean515]

house.gov isn't the very least biased, is it.

Scared of the references and cites to actual documents included in the report? Or do you only prefer a Progressive Machine interpretation?

 

[Grant]

BTW, if anybody was thinking about doing anything nefarious discussing it on email is probably the last place they would do it.

Not if the culture was such that they thought there was no risk involved. From what we've learned so far, that seems to be the case. Just their conventions alone should have sent the message.

 

[Grant]

Because they think the body politic is stupid enough to believe it.

And many are.

 

[AJiveMan]

Scared of the references and cites to actual documents included in the report? Or do you only prefer a Progressive Machine interpretation?

:lol:

you seem to be afraid of progressive media, do you prefer biased house.gov?

 

[ocean515]

:lol:

you seem to be afraid of progressive media, do you prefer biased house.gov?

Not afraid of what the Progressive Machine puts out. I appreciate their agenda, and the effort it takes to promote it.

I prefer information with cites and cross references so the information presented can educate and inform, rather than spin and obfuscate. Just a preference of mine, I suppose.

 

[Hicup]

Another way to find out who she sent and received emails from is through their DNS server. Or, another way would be through their firewall, and or another way would be through their web server, all of these hardware devices keep IP logs of where a request comes from, and where a request goes too by IP.

There done, I just told congress how to (Albeit a very hard and time consuming way to check) follow the trail. If they're using exchange as their email server, then the DNS, Firewall, and web server traffic logs will route the request to the Exchange server and through a little detective work and between certain time frames they could put the pieces together. NOTHING that travel into or out of an Enterprise can be truly hidden or irretrievable.

Tim-

 

[Mason66]

Another way to find out who she sent and received emails from is through their DNS server. Or, another way would be through their firewall, and or another way would be through their web server, all of these hardware devices keep IP logs of where a request comes from, and where a request goes too by IP.

There done, I just told congress how to (Albeit a very hard and time consuming way to check) follow the trail. If they're using exchange as their email server, then the DNS, Firewall, and web server traffic logs will route the request to the Exchange server and through a little detective work and between certain time frames they could put the pieces together. NOTHING that travel into or out of an Enterprise can be truly hidden or irretrievable.

Tim-

Just like the OP says, if you don't have a degree, from a college they recognize, and 20 years experience doing this, they won't listen to you.

 

[SingleCellOrganism]

I was a GS11 Sys. Admin. at USGS for 7 years. (2000-2006)

This is a lie - there is NO POSSIBLE way those emails are not available in a backup.

In our pathetic USGS operation we had a SAN backup and tape backup with restorable email data going back ~5 years on hand at all times.

After leaving the USGS I was a Sys. Admin. at an engineering company for 8 years. (recently left to pursue a programming position)

So again: there is no possible way these emails just 'disappeared'.

A very heartfelt LOL at this story.

If in fact the data was lost; they should fire the ENTIRE IT staff of the IRS for incompetence.


Obama is a joke. GWB is a joke. Republicans and Democrats are a joke.

I have no dog in this fight.

 

[Mason66]

I was a GS11 Sys. Admin. at USGS for 7 years. (2000-2006)

This is a lie - there is NO POSSIBLE way those emails are not available in a backup.

In our pathetic USGS operation we had a SAN backup and tape backup with restorable email data going back ~5 years on hand at all times.

After leaving the USGS I was a Sys. Admin. at an engineering company for 8 years.

So again: there is no possible way these emails just 'disappeared'.

A very heartfelt LOL at this story.

We all know this.

The scary thing is that they think we, the public, will believe their story without question.

 

[AJiveMan]

Not afraid of what the Progressive Machine puts out. I appreciate their agenda, and the effort it takes to promote it.

I prefer information with cites and cross references so the information presented can educate and inform, rather than spin and obfuscate. Just a preference of mine, I suppose.

I could say the same of the GOP machine too, however, their agenda seems to be at a loss lately, like since 2000.

Do tell about spin please.