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The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread!

samsmart

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Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

must be nice to live in a world where everything is neatly compartmentalized and separate from everything else and there are no worries about how your decisions affect other people.

Thank you. It is.

Especially when my decisions aren't the business of other people. And especially when other people's decisions aren't any of my business.
 
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OscarB63

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Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

Thank you. It is.

Especially when my decisions aren't the business of other people. And especially when other people's decisions aren't any of my business.


so a woman's decision to get an abortion in none of the father's business?

a man's decision to get a vasectomy is none of his wife's business?

damn, is my wife's decision to or not to cheat on me any of my business?
 

samsmart

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Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

so a woman's decision to get an abortion in none of the father's business?

a man's decision to get a vasectomy is none of his wife's business?

That is correct. An individual's reproductive rights should not be interefered with, not even by their spouse.

damn, is my wife's decision to or not to cheat on me any of my business?

No, it isn't. But then again, your decision to cheat on your wife is not any of her business. Neither can she stop you from divorcing her for any reason. That includes if she cheats on you.
 

OscarB63

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Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

That is correct. An individual's reproductive rights should not be interefered with, not even by their spouse.



No, it isn't. But then again, your decision to cheat on your wife is not any of her business. Neither can she stop you from divorcing her for any reason. That includes if she cheats on you.

then, my friend, we must simply agree to disagree because I will never understand your point of view that things that affect more than one person are only that one person's business.
 

samsmart

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Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

then, my friend, we must simply agree to disagree because I will never understand your point of view that things that affect more than one person are only that one person's business.

Because to do otherwise would be to drive myself clinically insane because the only person I can ever truly control is myself.
 
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Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

This topic is probably the most emotional and contentious of any and all topics, not to mention inherently complicated. Case in point. This is a true story which happened to a friend of my son.

A young unmarried couple, 20 and 21 respectively found themselves in a situation. Upon learning of the pregnancy, much hand wringing and thought commenced. Neither of them truly considered abortion a viable option. It was brought up, they did discuss it, but neither felt this was something they could, or wanted to do. So, the decision was made to have the child. Then another snag was hit. The young man felt very much (and rightly so..I know these kids) that neither of them was even remotely ready to bear the responsibility of having a child. He felt that giving the child up for adoption was the smartest thing they could do. She disagreed. She could not bear the thought of giving up her child. An understandable, if not emotional, decision. In the end, he did demur to her, and they planned on keeping the child. Sadly, at 22 weeks, she went into premature labor, and the child died 13 hours after birth.
Lets change this story a bit though, and see serious complications. What if she wanted to abort, and he did not? Yes, it is her body, and her life..I do not dispute this in any way. But it is also his child. And reversing this, what if she wished to keep the child, and he felt an abortion was the best option? He has offered to pay for the abortion, does love her, etc etc. She gets to decide that he will have this responsibility for the rest of his life. Yes, I know, he chose to have sex..yada yada yada. But this is not a cut and dry situation. Is there, in any way shape or form, a truly viable solution to this, BESIDES not having sex..because we all know this is a pipe dream.
 

mac

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Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

This topic is probably the most emotional and contentious of any and all topics, not to mention inherently complicated. Case in point. This is a true story which happened to a friend of my son.

A young unmarried couple, 20 and 21 respectively found themselves in a situation. Upon learning of the pregnancy, much hand wringing and thought commenced. Neither of them truly considered abortion a viable option. It was brought up, they did discuss it, but neither felt this was something they could, or wanted to do. So, the decision was made to have the child. Then another snag was hit. The young man felt very much (and rightly so..I know these kids) that neither of them was even remotely ready to bear the responsibility of having a child. He felt that giving the child up for adoption was the smartest thing they could do. She disagreed. She could not bear the thought of giving up her child. An understandable, if not emotional, decision. In the end, he did demur to her, and they planned on keeping the child. Sadly, at 22 weeks, she went into premature labor, and the child died 13 hours after birth.
Lets change this story a bit though, and see serious complications. What if she wanted to abort, and he did not? Yes, it is her body, and her life..I do not dispute this in any way. But it is also his child. And reversing this, what if she wished to keep the child, and he felt an abortion was the best option? He has offered to pay for the abortion, does love her, etc etc. She gets to decide that he will have this responsibility for the rest of his life. Yes, I know, he chose to have sex..yada yada yada. But this is not a cut and dry situation. Is there, in any way shape or form, a truly viable solution to this, BESIDES not having sex..because we all know this is a pipe dream.

Well, first it's not a pipe dream. Everyone chooses to have sex and they can just as easily choose not too. I am truly sorry for their loss. I can only imagine how terribly painful it is to loose a child.
 
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Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

Well, first it's not a pipe dream. Everyone chooses to have sex and they can just as easily choose not too. I am truly sorry for their loss. I can only imagine how terribly painful it is to loose a child.

Expecting people to give up sex IS a pipe dream. Yes, we do have a choice, but young people are not always the best at making sound decisions. And yes, it was a very difficult time for all involved. I believe there was also a lot of guild going around among the adults, as while we were all horrified by it, I also know that in the back of most of our minds was that thought that, nature seemed to know and understand that this outcome was very likely for the best. Its hard to stop that thought at such a time, and increases the guilt and the sadness.
 

mac

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Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

Yes, we do have a choice, but young people are not always the best at making sound decisions.

I agree, nevertheless, we are all responsible for our actions. If through a series of unfortunate events, a young person is compelled to commit some serious crime, largely based on the lack of maturity to make a better decision, do we excuse that action?
 
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Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

I agree, nevertheless, we are all responsible for our actions. If through a series of unfortunate events, a young person is compelled to commit some serious crime, largely based on the lack of maturity to make a better decision, do we excuse that action?

Excuse it? No, of course not. But neither do we disregard the youth factor when meting out punishment.

That really doenst have much to do with the topic at hand however. You cannot simply shout out ABSTAIN to a bunch of hormonal kids and expect positive results from it. It is illogical, and incredibly naive to believe that will work. Which is why I asked for any solution besides the abstain one, since it has been proven time and time again that it simply does not work. At some point, you have to stop beating the horse.
 

mac

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Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

Excuse it? No, of course not. But neither do we disregard the youth factor when meting out punishment.

That really doenst have much to do with the topic at hand however. You cannot simply shout out ABSTAIN to a bunch of hormonal kids and expect positive results from it. It is illogical, and incredibly naive to believe that will work. Which is why I asked for any solution besides the abstain one, since it has been proven time and time again that it simply does not work. At some point, you have to stop beating the horse.

I'm not shouting abstain, though that is a legitimate option. I'm shouting THINK.
 

MaggieD

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Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

Excuse it? No, of course not. But neither do we disregard the youth factor when meting out punishment.

That really doenst have much to do with the topic at hand however. You cannot simply shout out ABSTAIN to a bunch of hormonal kids and expect positive results from it. It is illogical, and incredibly naive to believe that will work. Which is why I asked for any solution besides the abstain one, since it has been proven time and time again that it simply does not work. At some point, you have to stop beating the horse.

Totally agree. Trying to preach abstention is futile. What wouldn't be futile is targeted classes teaching young men and women how to pick their partners; what's the purpose of marriage in the first place; what makes a good partner; what makes for a serious relationship; what shouldn't make a serious relationship; the risks of premarital sex; birth control measures; how to determine if one is pregnant and how soon they can do that; STD's and their complications; a thorough discussion about abortion and the adoption/keep it alternatives.

We could change abortion statistics in one generation with effective instruction, imo.
 

mac

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Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

Totally agree. Trying to preach abstention is futile. What wouldn't be futile is targeted classes teaching young men and women how to pick their partners; what's the purpose of marriage in the first place; what makes a good partner; what makes for a serious relationship; what shouldn't make a serious relationship; the risks of premarital sex; birth control measures; how to determine if one is pregnant and how soon they can do that; STD's and their complications; a thorough discussion about abortion and the adoption/keep it alternatives.

We could change abortion statistics in one generation with effective instruction, imo.

And perhaps by parents that cared enough about their kids to teach them about consequences.
 

BDBoop

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Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

And perhaps by parents that cared enough about their kids to teach them about consequences.

You actually believe that the only teens who get pregnant are ones whose parents didn't care enough to teach them about consequences?
 

CriticalThought

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Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

*look overs the last few pages in thread*

Well I'm happy to see this thread remained "emotion free".

*rolls eyes*
 

mac

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Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

You actually believe that the only teens who get pregnant are ones whose parents didn't care enough to teach them about consequences?

No, there are a few exceptions.
 
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