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The limits of the Commerce power? [W:85, 130]

Re: The limits of the Commerce power?

Employment and commerce have nothing to do with one another.

Then I guess we strike all of the employment and labor laws. Yeah, you've really thought THIS one through . . .

But this is what happens when you pull things out of your tuckus, like you did here.
 
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Re: The limits of the Commerce power?

It's been said quite a few times already -- keeping states from erecting trade barriers against each other.

That tells me nothing that gives me a situation so what then does the congress do send an order to cease and desist? I have another one for you in 1807 I believe the congress passed an embargo on European trade by doing so did it not proscribe a rule governing commerce and if we take your hair thin application as true wasn't this act unconstitutional?
 
Re: The limits of the Commerce power?

really? well the commerce clause is the justifying support for congress passing TITLE VII

you are wrong again

Title VII was passed to ensure a constitutional right. The idea that the commerce clause was used as support does not mean that it was passed through the commerce clause. Employment is covered under the NLRA and unions come under "the right to organize".
 
Re: The limits of the Commerce power?

Then I guess we strike all of the employment and labor laws. Yeah, you've really thought THIS one through . . .

But this is what happens when you pull things out of your tuckus, like you did here.

My lackey

Title VII was passed to ensure a constitutional right. The idea that the commerce clause was used as support does not mean that it was passed through the commerce clause. Employment is covered under the NLRA and unions come under "the right to organize".
 
Re: The limits of the Commerce power?

I mean its certainly sensible to say that regulating commerce among the states is different than regulating with foreign nations. On what basis can it be said that the government may prescribe the rule for commerce with foreign nations but among the states it must sit and wait for a state to impose a trade barrier?
 
Re: The limits of the Commerce power?

My lackey

"Your lackey."

:lamo

Do you notice you say this kind of thing every time you were the one who engaged me?


Title VII was passed to ensure a constitutional right.

Yeah? Name it. Cite the article and clause.

The idea that the commerce clause was used as support does not mean that it was passed through the commerce clause. Employment is covered under the NLRA and unions come under "the right to organize".

:roll: It's what they were all justified by and upheld under. You really need to learn things before you spout off about them.

But perhaps you can name another power listed in Article I which could justify any of it? Raising an army, perhaps? Granting patents and copyrights, perhaps? Coining money? No, really. G'head.
 
Re: The limits of the Commerce power?

I mean its certainly sensible to say that regulating commerce among the states is different than regulating with foreign nations. On what basis can it be said that the government may prescribe the rule for commerce with foreign nations but among the states it must sit and wait for a state to impose a trade barrier?

Who said that? I didn't. The commerce clause takes away any power of a State to do so.
 
Re: The limits of the Commerce power?

Who said that? I didn't. The commerce clause takes away any power of a State to do so.

True but getting back to the question I originally asked before the statement you quoted. What can the congress do to stop state trade barriers? Telling me its intent tells me nothing in such a situation what does congress do send an order to cease and desist? I have another one for you in 1807 I believe the congress passed an embargo on European trade by doing so did it not proscribe a rule governing commerce and if we take your hair thin application as true wasn't this act unconstitutional?
 
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Re: The limits of the Commerce power?

The SCOTUS should not have to play referee to OBVIOUS attempts to make end runs around what is clearly stated by the U.S. constitution. A few examples follow:

1) The federal gov't has no constitutional power over education, NONE, yet the fastest growing, cabinet level, federal department is the DOEd. How much more clear can the 10th amendment be? The federal gov't MUST remain limitted to its narrow and listed (enumerated) powers or have the new power(s) added by constituional amendment. The endless expansion of 'perceived' or 'implied' federal powers simply by congressional slight of hand, coupled with bribes to the states (they now get about 10% of their annual budgets in the form of federal 'education aid') and the ignoring of the obvious infraction by the SCOTUS does not make it "right".

2) the 2nd amendment clearly states that "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed", yet states may now SELL (rent?) "gun permits" or "CCW permits" for substantial fees and then prosecute ONLY those that exercise their constitutional right to bear arms WITHOUT first buying that express permission from the state. The state did not add rights or privileges of any kind, they simply chose to charge you money to keep that which is rightly yours to begin with. This is much the same as prior "poll taxes" made up to limit those which were legally able to vote, strangely this took a constitutional amendment (the 24th) to stop, not a mere SCOTUS decision that it was unconstitutional to begin with, as was done with the voter "literacy tests" that followed.

Alittle perspective goes a long way....

Yes, we as American citizens do have the right to keep and bear arms, but there will always be this tug-o-war between individual liberty (freedom), state's rights (laws that govern what residents of any given state can and cannot do) and prosperity whether it be from the stand point of an individual desiring to risk his own capital to join in the free market system based on capitalism or the state's to make laws that set the rules of engagement where commerce is concerned within their boarders and the federal government establishing laws that govern our system of commerce where same is delcared to be national in scope.

Moral law (not to mention common sense) tells you you can't just purchase any weapon you want despite what the 5th Amendment says. I know there are a lot of strict Constitutionalist out there who believe otherwise (I know because I've debated some here before on the merits of individuals possessing the same types of weapons a militia is entitled to have under this very clause), but common sense dictates that if everyone were allowed to purchase an AK-47 or a machine gun and mount it on their roof or their backyard, you'd have anarchy! And that's not what our Founding Fathers wanted.

The whole point of the 5th Amendment was to keep a government from taking up arms against its citizens. All one needs to do is see the civil unrest that has already taken place in countries such a Lybia and especially in Syria to know that a country cannot murder its citizens unopposed if the citizens are armed themselves. However, under both state and federal laws we as free individuals CAN go out and purchase such aforementioned weapons as long as we adhere to the law. Again, state's rights, folks...with a little praticality and common-sense thrown in NOT to necessarily keep free men from possession such weapons but rather to limit the types of weapons that inadvertantly get in the hands of people who wish to disolve the public trust and disrupt good order and discipline.

Think it through...

As for voting rights where the "poll tax" is concerned, there's a reason the federal government intervened here. Just as it was concerning who were and weren't citizens of this country prior to the ratification of the 14th Amendment, the states went a bit nuts with voter suppression laws. It got so bad that the federal government had no choice but to intervene, but it did so by use of it's taxing power under the Constitution. By outlawing the poll tax, states could no longer surpress votes by charging free men their constitutional right to participate in the election process. Now, if only they'd amend that damned 2/3's person rule we'd be straight.
3) If the gov't wishes to make "health insurance" into a federal right (or power), then it must do so directly, just as with social security by levying a tax, establishing 'benefit' rules and then paying them using gov't funds, or as with Medicare/Medicaid by direct action using gov't funds, not by making all sorts of unfunded mandates and producing a massive 2,400+ page mess, supported by 187 new agencies and panels and pretending them (as it was sold to the public) to be simply (minor?) revisions to an existing private health insurance system, made under the commerce clause. Adding thousands of moronic "waivers" (to the initial law), some at the entire state level, should also be found unconstitutional as violating the equal protection guarantee of the 14th amendment.

I agree with that portion of your statement in bold. However, I think you have some of your facts wrong (i.e., 2,400+ page healthcare reform bill, 187 new agencies and panels, etc.). Furthermore, the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (HR 3590) is only approximately 920 pages long (and probably 1,500 pages long if you include the Education Reconsiliation Act). Nonetheless, in priciple I agree with you. It's why I've argued that The CLASS Act would have been a better piece of legislation in and of itself had Congress had the courage to set a date far enough in the future to eliminate Medicare and Medicaid, take that portion of the payroll tax working-class Americans are already paying toward Medicare and instead apply it toward The CLASS Act and operate a national health care system along the exact same lines as the Health Insurance Exchanges but with near instant accessibility to health care as those who receive Medicaid now receive which is through the private sector. But people made such a sink over health care reform that no body in Congress truly wanted to push The CLASS Act in a meaningful way. Still, I think it will be back in a few years because folks will get tired of either paying the high cost of health insurance/health care OR will finally get smart and realize that Texas Gov. Rick Perry was absolutely right - Medicare/SSN is a ponsi scheme. Think about it...

You start working as early as 15.5 yr of age in most states and work until you're 65 before you can access YOUR federal health care benefits (unless, of course, you're rendered or declared "disabled" by the SSN) and in the interim you purchase private health insurace through your employer taking hundreds of thousands of dollars out of your pocket over the course of your working years!?

These same people who are declaring "my right to spend my money as I damned well please" really have NOT thought our health care system through at all. Instead, they've been suckered in by rhetorical talking points.
 
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Re: The limits of the Commerce power?

That tells me nothing that gives me a situation so what then does the congress do send an order to cease and desist? I have another one for you in 1807 I believe the congress passed an embargo on European trade by doing so did it not proscribe a rule governing commerce and if we take your hair thin application as true wasn't this act unconstitutional?

See Article 1, Section 8, Clause 2:

[Congress shall have the power to] To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes.

Of course, there's also presidential powers to make treaties per Article II, Section 2, Clause:

[The President] shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur.

Treaties can also be free trade agreements between the U.S. and foreign countries. All this clause says is as the nation's top foreign ambassador, the President of the United States can broker free trade agreements with forieng nations but he must get the consent of the Senate before such an agreement can take affect.
 
Re: The limits of the Commerce power?

Could you give me an example of a valid exercise of the commerce power whether it be a real law or something you make up. Why should the government be inclined to regulate health insurance similarly to the means pursued in Social security and Medicare? Also are you saying Infringed means that guns even if in the stream of commerce cannot be regulated.

In 1944, the Supreme Court ruled that insurance was part of inter-state commerece by virtue of how insurance was sold across state lines. It wasn't so much that insurance agents were crossing state lines to reach their customers, i.e., crossing over from Wisconsin to Michigan or NY to NJ, but rather that the premiums for health insurance were ultimately going from the point of sale which could be in California to the headquarters of the insurance company which could be in Maine. As such, the Supreme Court ruled that by "following the money trail," health insurance did cross state lines and, as such, was "national in scope" and, thus, fell under Art. 1, Section 8, Clause 3 of the Constitution, aka, the commerce clause.

Now, if Congress had shown courage during the health care reform debate, they could have concretely exercised their taxing power (Clause 1 of same Article and Section) to implement a national health care system as I've outlined in my post 34# above. But they did (I suspect) because no one in Congress wanted to surcome to such overwhelming political pressures.
 
Re: The limits of the Commerce power?

"Your lackey."

:lamo

Do you notice you say this kind of thing every time you were the one who engaged me?




Yeah? Name it. Cite the article and clause.



:roll: It's what they were all justified by and upheld under. You really need to learn things before you spout off about them.

But perhaps you can name another power listed in Article I which could justify any of it? Raising an army, perhaps? Granting patents and copyrights, perhaps? Coining money? No, really. G'head.


Yes; my lackey: my footman: the small barking dog. The silly angry man.

So, the XIV Amendment spells out what The Constitution proper did not articulate. And, I do kknow what I'm talking about; I remember your mouth shouting "all of them" at one time, and that was shown to be wrong. So here you go again.

Now; rather than pass the buck, why don't use said article to refute what I've said.
 
Re: The limits of the Commerce power?

I don't think that it describes on intimates any limitations.

http://www.constitution.org/lrev/cjohnson/pandas_thumb.pdf

The third power listed in the Constitution’s description of federal powers gives
Congress the power to regulate commerce with foreign nations, with Indian tribes
and among the states.1 In the original debates over adoption of the Constitution,
“regulation of commerce” was used, almost exclusively, as a cover of words for
specific mercantilist proposals related to deep-water shipping and foreign trade. The
Constitution was written before Adam Smith, laissez faire and free trade came to
dominate economic thinking2 and the Commerce Clause draws its original meaning
from the preceding mercantilist tradition. All of the concrete programs intended to
be forwarded by giving Congress the power to regulate commerce were restrictions
on international trade giving subsidy or protection to favored domestic merchants
or punishing imports or foreign producers.3 Neither trade with the Indians nor
interstate commerce shows up as a significant issue in the original debates.
 
Re: The limits of the Commerce power?

Title VII was passed to ensure a constitutional right. The idea that the commerce clause was used as support does not mean that it was passed through the commerce clause. Employment is covered under the NLRA and unions come under "the right to organize".


you don't have a constitutional right to a job. and it was based on the commerce clause. so is the NLRB.
 
Re: The limits of the Commerce power?

Yes; my lackey: my footman: the small barking dog. The silly angry man.

:roll:

Yeah. You can't out-argue me, so you pretend I'm harassing you, when it's YOU who are always picking the fight. Speaking of "small" . . .


So, the XIV Amendment spells out what The Constitution proper did not articulate.

Doesn't answer a thing I asked you, nor does it support a word you said. It's just a slogan.


And, I do kknow what I'm talking about;

No, you don't, and you prove it every single time you venture forth.


I remember your mouth shouting "all of them" at one time, and that was shown to be wrong.

No, I absolutely was not. :roll: It's only your complete ignorance of anything concerning the Constitution which makes you think I was. You were crushed into dust concerning your sublimely asinine "theory." It's true that you have no idea whatsoever that you were, because you don't know enough about the topic even to understand that much.


Now; rather than pass the buck, why don't use said article to refute what I've said.

Because you haven't even bothered to try to support what you said. It's most likely because you wouldn't even know where to begin. Which probably means you think you did support it, but you don't even know enough about it to realize you didn't.

Employment and labor laws are based on the commerce clause. You can cry and bleat and pound your high chair all day long, but they still will be, and your ignorance of it will never, ever change the fact.
 
Re: The limits of the Commerce power?

I don't think that it describes on intimates any limitations.

http://www.constitution.org/lrev/cjohnson/pandas_thumb.pdf

The third power listed in the Constitution’s description of federal powers gives
Congress the power to regulate commerce with foreign nations, with Indian tribes
and among the states.1 In the original debates over adoption of the Constitution,
“regulation of commerce” was used, almost exclusively, as a cover of words for
specific mercantilist proposals related to deep-water shipping and foreign trade. The
Constitution was written before Adam Smith, laissez faire and free trade came to
dominate economic thinking2 and the Commerce Clause draws its original meaning
from the preceding mercantilist tradition. All of the concrete programs intended to
be forwarded by giving Congress the power to regulate commerce were restrictions
on international trade giving subsidy or protection to favored domestic merchants
or punishing imports or foreign producers.3 Neither trade with the Indians nor
interstate commerce shows up as a significant issue in the original debates.

:shock:

Wow.

You actually think the quoted passage supports your statement, don't you?
 
Re: The limits of the Commerce power?

Harshaw what do you think of how Marshall described the power in Gibbons when he said "It is the power to regulate, that is, to prescribe the rule by which commerce is to be governed. This power, like all others vested in Congress, is complete in itself, may be exercised to its utmost extent, and acknowledges no limitations other than are prescribed in the Constitution."
 
Re: The limits of the Commerce power?

Harshaw what do you think of how Marshall described the power in Gibbons when he said "It is the power to regulate, that is, to prescribe the rule by which commerce is to be governed. This power, like all others vested in Congress, is complete in itself, may be exercised to its utmost extent, and acknowledges no limitations other than are prescribed in the Constitution."

I'd say that Marshall, in McCulloch, described such Constitutional limitation as "consist[ing] within the letter and spirit of the Constitution" (my emphasis), and should "Congress . . . pass laws for the accomplishment of objects not entrusted to the government," then such laws would be unconstitutional.

For such "spirit" and what's "entrusted to the government," I again send you to Marshall's contemporary and principle author of the commerce clause:

James Madison said:
I always foresaw that difficulties might be started in relation to that power which could not be fully explained without recurring to views of it, which, however just, might give birth to specious though unsound objections. Being in the same terms with the power over foreign commerce, the same extent, if taken literally, would belong to it. Yet it is very certain that it grew out of the abuse of the power by the importing States in taxing the non-importing, and was intended as a negative and preventive provision against injustice among the States themselves, rather than as a power to be used for the positive purposes of the General Government, in which alone, however, the remedial power could be lodged.

Thus, by Marshall's own hand, the commerce power, though "complete," is severely limited.
 
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Re: The limits of the Commerce power?

I'd say that Marshall, in McCulloch, described such Constitutional limitation as "consist[ing] within the letter and spirit of the Constitution" (my emphasis), and should "Congress . . . pass laws for the accomplishment of objects not entrusted to the government," then such laws would be unconstitutional.

For such "spirit" and what's "entrusted to the government," I again send you to Marshall's contemporary and principle author of the commerce clause:



Thus, by Marshall's own hand, the commerce power, though "complete," is severely limited.

Yes; limited only in the that if the sale of goods and services is not national in scope, it does not meet the definition of "commerce among the states" and would not meet constitutional requirements. No better example of how convoluted the issue gets than when you start looking at eCommerce sales, i.e., my homebased business is in Huntsville, AL, but my customer could be in NYC. Because he found my product over the Internet and not from say a sales brouchere I mailed to him because I obtained his name and address from a address list I purchased, should my NYC customer be subject to an AL sales tax or a federal sales tax or any tax at all? Or should the sale of goods and services now be regulated by the federal government since I did make a sale across state lines using the Internet which by most accounts is "national in scope" but is also a marketing medium in itself for the purpose of generating sales contacts, as well as being a point-of-sales venue? Tricky, tricky...

Things that make you go, "Hmmmm....?".
 
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Re: The limits of the Commerce power?

:roll:

Yeah. You can't out-argue me, so you pretend I'm harassing you, when it's YOU who are always picking the fight. Speaking of "small" . . .




Doesn't answer a thing I asked you, nor does it support a word you said. It's just a slogan.




No, you don't, and you prove it every single time you venture forth.




No, I absolutely was not. :roll: It's only your complete ignorance of anything concerning the Constitution which makes you think I was. You were crushed into dust concerning your sublimely asinine "theory." It's true that you have no idea whatsoever that you were, because you don't know enough about the topic even to understand that much.




Because you haven't even bothered to try to support what you said. It's most likely because you wouldn't even know where to begin. Which probably means you think you did support it, but you don't even know enough about it to realize you didn't.

Employment and labor laws are based on the commerce clause. You can cry and bleat and pound your high chair all day long, but they still will be, and your ignorance of it will never, ever change the fact.

(chuckle)

You've not beat me in argument yet and I've answered every question you've asked above: you just don't read very well.
 
Re: The limits of the Commerce power?

:shock:

Wow.

You actually think the quoted passage supports your statement, don't you?

Actually; that was supposed to be a reply to someone else.
 
Re: The limits of the Commerce power?

I'd say that Marshall, in McCulloch, described such Constitutional limitation as "consist[ing] within the letter and spirit of the Constitution" (my emphasis), and should "Congress . . . pass laws for the accomplishment of objects not entrusted to the government," then such laws would be unconstitutional.

For such "spirit" and what's "entrusted to the government," I again send you to Marshall's contemporary and principle author of the commerce clause:



Thus, by Marshall's own hand, the commerce power, though "complete," is severely limited.


Yes but he also noted that the Necessary and Proper clause expanded rather than limited congressional authority. The entire statement you quote from McCulloch v. Maryland says, "We admit, as all must admit, that the powers of the Government are limited, and that its limits are not to be transcended. But we think the sound construction of the Constitution must allow to the national legislature that discretion with respect to the means by which the powers it confers are to be carried into execution which will enable that body to perform the high duties assigned to it in the manner most beneficial to the people. Let the end be legitimate, let it be within the scope of the Constitution, and all means which are appropriate, which are plainly adapted to that end, which are not prohibited, but consist with the letter and spirit of the Constitution, are Constitutional."

Perhaps Madison did see the commerce power as a dormant power only but do you think that is a sufficient basis to argue it to be such?
 
Re: The limits of the Commerce power?

(chuckle)

You've not beat me in argument yet and I've answered every question you've asked above: you just don't read very well.

:roll:

You just keep telling yourself that. But not a word in this post matches reality.
 
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Re: The limits of the Commerce power?

Yes but he also noted that the Necessary and Proper clause expanded rather than limited congressional authority. The entire statement you quote from McCulloch v. Maryland says, "We admit, as all must admit, that the powers of the Government are limited, and that its limits are not to be transcended. But we think the sound construction of the Constitution must allow to the national legislature that discretion with respect to the means by which the powers it confers are to be carried into execution which will enable that body to perform the high duties assigned to it in the manner most beneficial to the people. Let the end be legitimate, let it be within the scope of the Constitution, and all means which are appropriate, which are plainly adapted to that end, which are not prohibited, but consist with the letter and spirit of the Constitution, are Constitutional."

The full quotation doesn't change a thing. In fact, it reinforces it, because it speaks concretely of limits.


Perhaps Madison did see the commerce power as a dormant power only but do you think that is a sufficient basis to argue it to be such?

Considering he knew what he was writing, yes, indeed.
 
Re: The limits of the Commerce power?

:roll:

You just keep telling yourself that. But not a word in this post matches reality.

I've said it before booboo; start a thread about a subject that you think you know about, and we'll goa few a rounds.

What I have done of late, is read your posts to other people, and you are just as rude and abusive to them as you are me. (it's a pathology for sure)

You simply resort to ad-hominem when you are getting cornered. You've not credibly refuted any argument I've made, so, start a thread and let's go . . .
 
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