The legal system cannot justify its claims of personal moral responsibility.

[Seer Travis Truman]

The legal system cannot justify its claims of personal moral responsibility.

There is currently no proof nor deductive argument that can demonstrate why an individual should be responsible for their behaviour to a court of law.

Most of the time when people try and justify same they simply resort to their presumptions that they will gain a preference.

Exactly how can you citizen-slaves claim that the legal system can legitimately claim that an individual is responsible for their behaviour? I cannot be done.

 

[Tsunami]

Might makes right.:beat

 

[Seer Travis Truman]

Might makes right.:beat

No. Might is might. You have not even touched on the possibility of what "right" and "moral" actually is, if it is anything at all.

Although might is personally very valuable, and it could be argued that the state has more might than any of its citizen-slaves, that does not need imply any form of moral or "righteous" values.

Your other problem is that if "might was right", then right (or what do do with one;s/states might) becomes totally capricious and arbitrary. Why not just make any random decisions, because those will also be right if the state has might.

Further, that does not really attack My case, even if it is True.

You will have to do better than that.

 

[Tsunami]

Ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer

 

[Seer Travis Truman]

Ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer

Then you admit your answer is stupid. The question, however, is actually quite sound. In fact, I study philosophy, and I know that this question has been asked before in behemian circles.

Of course, I know what the answer is. It is you cannot give an satisfactory answer.

 

[Kernel Sanders]

The legal system cannot justify its claims of personal moral responsibility.

There is currently no proof nor deductive argument that can demonstrate why an individual should be responsible for their behaviour to a court of law.

Most of the time when people try and justify same they simply resort to their presumptions that they will gain a preference.

Exactly how can you citizen-slaves claim that the legal system can legitimately claim that an individual is responsible for their behaviour? I cannot be done.

I'm surprised you didn't cover this in middle school

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_contract"]Social Contract[/ame]

According to Thomas Hobbes, human life would be "nasty, brutish, and short" without political authority. In its absence, we would live in a state of nature, where we each have unlimited natural freedoms, including the "right to all things" and thus the freedom to harm all who threaten our own self-preservation; there would be an endless "war of all against all" (Bellum omnium contra omnes). To avoid this, free men establish political community i.e. civil society through a social contract in which each gain civil rights in return for subjecting himself to civil law or to political authority.

Alternatively, some have argued that we gain civil rights in return for accepting the obligation to respect and defend the rights of others, giving up some freedoms to do so; this alternative formulation of the duty arising from the social contract is often identified with arguments about military service.

 

[Seer Travis Truman]

I'm surprised you didn't cover this in middle school

There is no Truth-based education or information given via the so-called education system.

According to Thomas Hobbes,

Hobbes is a supremely deranged human being, and what he says is wrong.

human life would be "nasty, brutish, and short" without political authority.

Insanity. The Truth is that current societies have created more suffering, death and psychological dysfunction than any free, sane natural animal ever has created.

In its absence, we would live in a state of nature,

Illogical. This is a "false dillemma". There are other options. You cannot justify or rationilize something by the alternative.

Further, nature is better than the ultra-deseased socities of humanity.

where we each have unlimited natural freedoms, including the "right to all things" and thus the freedom to harm all who threaten our own self-preservation

Yes, society DOES choke the freedo, from you citizen-slaves. Nature entails freedom. Yes, to harm other IS a freedom, and a natural and indispenisble part of life. Protecting and self-preservation actions are perfectly sane and appropriate actions.

there would be an endless "war of all against all" (Bellum omnium contra omnes).

That is one possibility via nature. That is better than what society has produced and made our lives.

To avoid this,

Society only amplified this effect.

free men establish political community

No citizen-slave of any human society has freedom. There are NO free men to establish anything. Wrong again.

i.e. civil society through a social contract in which each gain civil rights in return for subjecting himself to civil law or to political authority.

This is a lie.
1) There can be no such things as a "social contract". There is no Truth-based legitimacy that any human could possibly agree to any contract from society to enter or agree to abide by that society. The Truth is that when born each human is ENSLAVED again his will into that society.
2) There is no such thing as individual rights. This is a total lie that societies worldwide have brainwashed you into believing.
3) Society has no business dictating to anyone what they should do in the first place, therefore society cannot subject you to any alternative to the contract, or the contract itself. There is no way that society can place a legitimate condition on refusing the "contract".

Alternatively, some have argued that we gain civil rights in return for accepting the obligation to respect and defend the rights of others,

I have news for you : Individual hman rights do NOT exist. You are just all ORDERED what to think and what to do.

giving up some freedoms to do so;

No loyal member of soceity has ANY legitimate freedom whatsoever. The only Truth-based form of freedom is Mental Freedom, which no brainwashed citizen-slave possess.

this alternative formulation of the duty arising from the social contract is often identified with arguments about military service.

"Military service" is nothing more than brainwashing, or otherwise forcing.co-ercing, innocent humans to literally commit mass murder for the cathartic release of homicidal societal leaders.


Conclusion : What a total breakdown of sanity and reason you have. You just blindly accept these lies without analysing them.

By arguing a "contract", you just beg the question again. That can never be an answer. You are resorting to circular justification.

 

[Kernel Sanders]

Not at all. People don't want anarchy, so they accept government rule.

 

[Seer Travis Truman]

Not at all. People don't want anarchy, so they accept government rule.

This does not even address the question, let alone respond to the material.

What people "want" is no reason nor justification for the current system of judging and punishing so-called "criminals".

Again, you make a false dillemma. To suggest that the only alternative is anarchy is false, and it is illogical to argue the validility of one thing by attacking another.

Even so you give no justification as to why anarchy is supposedly worse than what we have now.

Therefore, your reply is dismissed as a mindless rhetoric.

 

[Caine]

...........because you say so....

:rofl

Anyone else get this vibe?

 

[Seer Travis Truman]

Nobody has any brains on this forum.

You claim a "contact" is the answer.

Take Henry Lee Lucas, the Serial-Killer. Victim-creation Henry was horrifically abused during his childhood. Therefore, I could say that society broke its side of the contact, and therefore Henry has a right to commit crimes as he pleases. How does that work then?

C'mon, surely someone on this forum can at least post a logical reply.

 

[Highlander]

Alright,

Case 1: (the seer's way)
Society fails person, person becomes a criminal. society lets criminal kill, and kill, and kill. society (lots of people) has lost, but the criminal (1 person) wins.

Case 2: (how things are)
Society fails person, person becomes a criminal. first up, the criminal is less likely to kill because he knows he's going to prison, so society's already got a victory.
But some will kill anyways right? maybe they really got screwed as a child. They kill once or twice, maby multiple times if their really smart. But they usually get caught, and stopped. Society wins.


It comes down to what is more important: few people or many. It's not always fair but if you've got a solution where everybody wins by all means present it.

 

[Seer Travis Truman]

Alright,

Case 1: (the seer's way)
Society fails person, person becomes a criminal. society lets criminal kill, and kill, and kill. society (lots of people) has lost, but the criminal (1 person) wins.

Thats an immature strawman. It is not "my way", its your take on what I said, so its your way.

Counting heads is irrational is ridiculous. Further, you only defined him as a criminal because of what he did, so you are simply capriciously refusing to label the others as criminals to suit your world view.

I never said society could not protect the citizen-slaves. I never said society could not take non-punitive steps to stop the killer from killing. That was your take.

Case 2: (how things are)
Society fails person, person becomes a criminal. first up, the criminal is less likely to kill because he knows he's going to prison, so society's already got a victory.

What victory? To abuse a child horrifically? To have a slaughter that need not be? How is that a victory?

By the way, no serial killer like Carl Panzram, or Henry Lucus, was ever stopped via threat of prison or punishment of any sort.

But some will kill anyways right? maybe they really got screwed as a child. They kill once or twice, maby multiple times if their really smart. But they usually get caught, and stopped. Society wins.

That is your view? Society "wins"? Wins what?

You seem to be forgetting that the same society that created Henry the serial killer is the exact same society that claimed to save you from him. The irony seems lost on you.

It comes down to what is more important: few people or many. It's not always fair but if you've got a solution where everybody wins by all means present it.

I actually do, but that is not the point. How is this winning? What is it a solution to? What kind of solution is that?
Why should your praise society for am insane "solution" when it caused the epidemic?

Try and answer that.

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

It doesn't matter if the legal system can justify its claims of moral responsibility or not. That's a moral aberration created by people who insist that the criminal justice system possess a moral dimension and mete out "punishment" to people who have done wrong.

The purpose of the "justice" system is to modify the behavior of the population. It's the last resort of the system when other, more subtle means of social conditioning have failed.

 

[Seer Travis Truman]

It doesn't matter if the legal system can justify its claims of moral responsibility or not. That's a moral aberration created by people who insist that the criminal justice system possess a moral dimension and mete out "punishment" to people who have done wrong.

The purpose of the "justice" system is to modify the behavior of the population. It's the last resort of the system when other, more subtle means of social conditioning have failed.

So, its a means to an end. Of course, I know that is the reality of what the justice system does.

But then, why even bother modifying that behavior? It still makes no sense. Surely even you can realise that there must be a legitimate basis for these behaviours in the first place?

 

[Captain America]

How about this...


Society fails person, person becomes a criminal.

Criminal gets locked up and treated like a dog.

But only if their crime doesn't measure up to a lethal injection.

I'm thinkin' there might be a good reason I was never picked for a jury. :mrgreen:

 

[Skateguy]

Then Convict is released back into society, and brutally kills somebody's Grandma, cause he feels unjustly punished. Sounds about right. ---our system seems to be working just fine.:shock:

 

[molten_dragon]

There is no Truth-based education or information given via the so-called education system.

You couldn't find the truth in an empty room with both hands and a flashlight.

 

[Highlander]

I actually do, but that is not the point. How is this winning? What is it a solution to? What kind of solution is that?
Why should your praise society for am insane "solution" when it caused the epidemic?

Let's hear your solution, surprise me by not dodging or putting that one off. And try to explain it in a fashion that the "citizen-slaves" will understand.

It's is a hollow victory, but a net gain non the less. A lesser of two evils so to speak. Until a greater solution is present that has the aproval of more then just you, I can't see things changing any time soon.

What victory? To abuse a child horrifically? To have a slaughter that need not be? How is that a victory?

Your words not mine.

 

[Seer Travis Truman]

You couldn't find the truth in an empty room with both hands and a flashlight.

Because Truth is not there. Its here, inside My glorious Superior brain.

 

[Highlander]

Because Truth is not there. Its here, inside My glorious Superior brain.

So there is something in your brain dictating the way you think, and you labeld it the truth. that was not meant to poke fun, I honestly want to know where your coming from here.

 

[Seer Travis Truman]

Let's hear your solution, surprise me by not dodging or putting that one off. And try to explain it in a fashion that the "citizen-slaves" will understand.

You cannot even understand your own words. You need to go back and answer to what was already discussed. Its not Me dodging, its you. Everytime you cannot answer, you just demand further answers form Me to change the subject.

It's is a hollow victory, but a net gain non the less.

No, its not a victory. Perhaps a victory for stupidity, perhaps.

A lesser of two evils so to speak. Until a greater solution is present that has the aproval of more then just you, I can't see things changing any time soon.

They wont change. Society brainwashed you all, and societal leaders dont want it to stop. Since society created the criminal, there is no point in weighing one against the other. They are ALL societal events. You can't just sift out those things that are bad by society, and pretend society is all pure and good. Its not.

Your words not mine.

Really? :

Society fails person, person becomes a criminal. first up, the criminal is less likely to kill because he knows he's going to prison, so society's already got a victory.

Wrong. They were your words. Who else's words are they? You described the scenario I describe as a "victory". You made your own sentence and called that a victory. You cannot understand what YOU wrote, let alone I.

So, dont try and dodge, then insanely accuse Me of dodging to try and change the subject. Answer to My previous post, you are yet to. These lies dont count as answers.

 

[Strucky]

You cannot even understand your own words. You need to go back and answer to what was already discussed. Its not Me dodging, its you. Everytime you cannot answer, you just demand further answers form Me to change the subject.

Just answer the damn question.

 

[Seer Travis Truman]

Just answer the damn question.

Who are you supposed to be? He failed to answer My question. He did not ask a valid question. Im not going down the railroad. He can answer what was put to him, until he does, I am not going to be lead off on other avenues.

 

[Strucky]

Who are you supposed to be?

Strucky

He failed to answer My question. He did not ask a valid question. Im not going down the railroad. He can answer what was put to him, until he does, I am not going to be lead off on other avenues.

You have failed to explain what your solution is....Explain it so people know how to respond to your insane posts.