The Latest Crusade to Place Religion Over the Rest of Civil Society

[Gordy327]

You are under the mistaken impression that I care enough about you to continue your 'value of life' query. It was asked...answered...and I tend to not waste time with people that are mindlessly stuck in their own shit.

Face facts...you dont give the first **** about life...any life...and HAVE to devalue it to justify your support of the slaughter of the unborn.

Fact is, you can't objectively explain the value of life, despite claiming life has value. Neither can you explain how abortion is a cause of societal decline. The fact is all you can offer is emotional based rants and rhetoric.

 

[VanceMack]

Fact is, you can't objectively explain the value of life, despite claiming life has value. Neither can you explain how abortion is a cause of societal decline. The fact is all you can offer is emotional based rants and rhetoric.

You and 'people' like you cheerfully celebrate the slaughter of 800,000 inborn babies a year and you cant see how that devalues life and contributes to societal decline.

You want to know the tragic reality? You know better. And you have to live with yourself.

Ive got no time for you.

 

[weaver2]

You and 'people' like you cheerfully celebrate the slaughter of 800,000 inborn babies a year and you cant see how that devalues life and contributes to societal decline.

I will cheerfully celebrate abortions as long as the leaders of the religious right keep refusing to provide programs that make sure low wage working women, women living of state and federal aid and teens have access to affordable contraceptives that women control.

The anti-abortion movement is deep into denying women these highly effective contraceptives and then complaining about the number of abortions. That's beyond hypocrisy. They are also deep into denying the positive things that happened, among them the 40% reduction in abortions, when Colorado instituted such a plan.That's beyond dishonest.

Just as Ford couldn't walk and chew gum at the same time it is also hard for anti-abortion supporters to act like hypocrites and look intelligent at the same time.

 

[weaver2]

....... Ive got no time for you.

Then why do you spend so much time telling the pro-choice people they are murderers?

 

[choiceone]

I defy you to find a single time where I have ever suggested or endorsed a ban on abortion.

I find the act of slaughtering unborn babies for the crime of being inconvenient abhorrent and something that has contributed to our overall societal decline. I am also a realist. Abortions are going to happen. I have ALWAYS maintained the same position as Obama and others...that abortion be safe, legal, and rare.

Its the 'rare' part we have forgotten.

I'm stunned. First, because you maintain the same political position I do. And second, because I would find it difficult to maintain this position if I believed 100% that the unborn were the same as born infants and that the act of abortion was "slaughter." My intellectual and political positions harmonize completely.

As for the issue of inconvenience, I may have my own bottom line on when I would and wouldn't have an abortion if I were a pregnant woman, but I also know that it's not possible to respect a person's liberty and impose mine on someone with a different bottom line.

 

[VanceMack]

I'm stunned. First, because you maintain the same political position I do. And second, because I would find it difficult to maintain this position if I believed 100% that the unborn were the same as born infants and that the act of abortion was "slaughter." My intellectual and political positions harmonize completely.

As for the issue of inconvenience, I may have my own bottom line on when I would and wouldn't have an abortion if I were a pregnant woman, but I also know that it's not possible to respect a person's liberty and impose mine on someone with a different bottom line.

Be stunned. Its OK. nothing happens.

I am a realist.

 

[choiceone]

You and 'people' like you cheerfully celebrate the slaughter of 800,000 inborn babies a year and you cant see how that devalues life and contributes to societal decline.

You want to know the tragic reality? You know better. And you have to live with yourself.

Ive got no time for you.

I don't get it. I'm like the person you are criticizing, and you've often accused me of being a cheerleader for "slaughter of the unborn," but I've never celebrated that or even believe that it occurred.

I have always believed that it's right for women to have the right to choose not to be pregnant for two reasons. First, pregnancy can kill or permanently disable a woman, even as an unforeseeable consequence. And second, none of us can actually know whether a particular pregnant girl or woman consented to heterosexual sex or was raped. Knowledge of her consent or non-consent would require that we ask her and she gives a conscious reply, but some women are so traumatized that they can't tell anyone they've been raped for months or years, and it would be outrageous to victimize a rape victim for not reporting it if that were the case.

Hence, any woman could be having an abortion for a medical reason we don't know about or a rape we don't know about or an irrational fear so great that it pushed her toward suicide. If God thought such knowledge should be public, objective symptoms or evidence would be easily public without our having to examine the body or interrogate the mind of the woman, and if the US Constitution thought that, we could not possibly have the 4th Amendment, or even the 1st.

So it seems clear that it's not actually our business. But that means the unborn can't be separate individual persons with separate lives, because if they were, we could be all judgmental about the behavior of those women. But to be judgmental, we would have to have access to their bodies and minds. And even if we violated their 4th Amendment rights, we still couldn't know, because some childbirth deaths and injuries are unforeseeable medically and because the only difference between consensual S&M sex and rape is whether one person refused consent to sex (which is why rape is almost never prosecuted).

I think that life is devalued by devaluing the liberty of personal control over one's personal body and life. You shouldn't be forced to use them for causes you don't believe in. Forcing women to give birth when they don't want to is basically like telling them they have to say "Heil Hitler" or go to prison for being silent. I couldn't live that way. I don't think that's devaluing life. It's recognizing that life without liberty is really fake.

 

[VanceMack]

I don't get it. I'm like the person you are criticizing, and you've often accused me of being a cheerleader for "slaughter of the unborn," but I've never celebrated that or even believe that it occurred.

I have always believed that it's right for women to have the right to choose not to be pregnant for two reasons. First, pregnancy can kill or permanently disable a woman, even as an unforeseeable consequence. And second, none of us can actually know whether a particular pregnant girl or woman consented to heterosexual sex or was raped. Knowledge of her consent or non-consent would require that we ask her and she gives a conscious reply, but some women are so traumatized that they can't tell anyone they've been raped for months or years, and it would be outrageous to victimize a rape victim for not reporting it if that were the case.

Hence, any woman could be having an abortion for a medical reason we don't know about or a rape we don't know about or an irrational fear so great that it pushed her toward suicide. If God thought such knowledge should be public, objective symptoms or evidence would be easily public without our having to examine the body or interrogate the mind of the woman, and if the US Constitution thought that, we could not possibly have the 4th Amendment, or even the 1st.

So it seems clear that it's not actually our business. But that means the unborn can't be separate individual persons with separate lives, because if they were, we could be all judgmental about the behavior of those women. But to be judgmental, we would have to have access to their bodies and minds. And even if we violated their 4th Amendment rights, we still couldn't know, because some childbirth deaths and injuries are unforeseeable medically and because the only difference between consensual S&M sex and rape is whether one person refused consent to sex (which is why rape is almost never prosecuted).

I think that life is devalued by devaluing the liberty of personal control over one's personal body and life. You shouldn't be forced to use them for causes you don't believe in. Forcing women to give birth when they don't want to is basically like telling them they have to say "Heil Hitler" or go to prison for being silent. I couldn't live that way. I don't think that's devaluing life. It's recognizing that life without liberty is really fake.

Was that addressed to you? Why do you insist on trying to shove your foot into someone else's glass slipper?

Reasonable people can disagree. People can see a tragic situation where life is ended in those 'rare' circumstances. If that was what we had in the country and in fact the world, I dont think abortion would be an issue. Its not. We have 800,000 babies being killed in the name of convenience and we have people that completely dehumanize life to justify killing it. A leads to B.

 

[Gordy327]

You and 'people' like you cheerfully celebrate the slaughter of 800,000 inborn babies a year and you cant see how that devalues life and contributes to societal decline.

You want to know the tragic reality? You know better. And you have to live with yourself.

Ive got no time for you.

As I suspected, you can't answer the questions and instead get into some emotional rant. I knew you were just talking full of it!

Was that addressed to you? Why do you insist on trying to shove your foot into someone else's glass slipper?

Reasonable people can disagree. People can see a tragic situation where life is ended in those 'rare' circumstances. If that was what we had in the country and in fact the world, I dont think abortion would be an issue. Its not. We have 800,000 babies being killed in the name of convenience and we have people that completely dehumanize life to justify killing it. A leads to B.

You still haven't explained what the "value" of life is or how abortion contributes to societal decline. Care to give that another go, or are you going to talk pure emotional and irrational BS again?

 

[choiceone]

Was that addressed to you? Why do you insist on trying to shove your foot into someone else's glass slipper?

The thread is a public discussion. It is not a place for anyone to expect a private conversation with someone. If we want to have private conversations, we can send messages to each other privately. All members can be
contacted by clicking members and then picking the name and stuff pops up that includes a place for sending a message privately.

Reasonable people can disagree. People can see a tragic situation where life is ended in those 'rare' circumstances. If that was what we had in the country and in fact the world, I dont think abortion would be an issue. Its not. We have 800,000 babies being killed in the name of convenience and we have people that completely dehumanize life to justify killing it. A leads to B.

First of all, even if doctors do not foresee complications, there are medically unforeseeable childbirth deaths. That's the reason that, populationally, any pregnant woman is risking her life by continuing a pregnancy to term, and statistically, if a pregnant woman has an abortion, she is reducing the risk to her life. So this is not about a "rare" tragedy unless the woman actually dies. It is about an individual person's right not to get pregnant and not to continue a pregnancy because she may not have consented to sex and may not consent to an increased risk of unforeseeable death or permanent disablement.

It's not an accident that Roe v Wade and an end to the military draft ended the same year. We don't have a right to draft people into the military to fight in a war they don't believe in and is not for the defense of our nation within our borders.

And as that is true, so we don't have a right to draft women into pregnancy to give birth if they think it's the wrong guy, the wrong time, or the wrong circumstance, because it's not for the defense of the national population from extinction. And the sad thing about this is that guys who were too young, too old, too fat, too skinny, with too imperfect sight, hearing, health, bodily wholeness, or intelligence were automatically eliminated from the draft, whereas our anti-abortion laws forced 10 year olds, 45 year olds, rape victims, women who had just escaped 10 years of serious domestic abuse, etc., to continue pregnancies.

You dehumanize the life of any woman by claiming you will torture her by forcing her to continue any pregnancy you say or putting her in prison or punishing the doctor who saves her from that.

Why shouldn't all women just commit suicide then, as you've totally devalued life for women?