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The justification for wealth-redistribution.[W:2037]

Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

I'm really not sure exactly when conservatives started using the pacifist meme, but it seems to be more and more popular.

If I go into a store, and take what is offered, I am expected to pay for it. I doubt that many people would object to the store owner not allowing me to steal from him, even if that involves force. So are you really against the use of force to make someone pay the price for whatever it is that they get from others?

If I voluntarily engage in an exchange of property titles (i.e. trade) with another person, and then keep his property, he would be justified in using force to reclaim his property that I am holding.

Paying the price for government, whatever that may be, is no different.

It's different in that it is not a voluntary exchange. It is imposed by force unilaterally. Very different from voluntary exchange.

Please stop with the pacifist meme. You know it's bull****, and so does everyone else.

I'm not a pacifist. I don't object to the use of force. I object to the initiation of force.
 
Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

Charity is for helping the less fortunate and everyone is fully compensated for their labor because it's only worth whatever people are willing to pay for it. Still, there are people who would argue these rationalizations and they are much less unflattering reasons than arguing based purely on greed and envy. When you boil it all down, it really does wind itself right back to the core fact that it is about wanting what wasn't earned; whether it was in wanting to give to others what you didn't earn or to give to yourself what you didn't earn. Or... of course.... asserting that people aren't being "fully paid" for what they do and claiming wealth redsitribution fixes this rampant and imaginary evil. All just rationalizations for why it's right to take what wasn't earned as the spoils of class warfare.

A problem with your argument is the conclusion is based upon very debatable and contentious premises. Your premise "everyone is fully compensated for their labor because it's only worth what people are willing to pay for it" is a very debatable premise and compelling arguments exits suggesting this is false.

You haven't introduced a shred of evidence to support your assertion. All this is and nothing more is "your own rationalization" and nothing more. You have presented an unsubstantiated argument built upon debatable assumptions. It's a pathetic argument.

Your argument assumes people are fully compensated for their labor, and because they are, then redistribution on the notion of helping people because they are underpaid is false. Yet you just declare, without more, people are fully compensated for their labor. There is some very compelling arguments and evidence suggesting this is false for some fields.

A good example is the fact in some industries the final product is sold, in aggregate or individually, for more than what it cost to obtain the materials and assemble the product. So, if a product is sold in the aggregate for $1 million dollars then the value for the labor is $1 million dollars, of course divided by the number of laborers if there is more than one laborer.

Yet we know the laborer doesn't get fully compensated because of the existence of profits. I'm not casting any aspersions on the existence of profits but rather using their existence to demonstrate, as evidence, the laborer isn't fully compensated for their labor. (The aggregate amount made off of the product is a factor in determining whether someone is fully compensated but a strong one).

My point here is your comment as "imaginary" the notion people are not fully paid for their labor is at this point baseless whereas there is evidence, and very compelling arguments, to suggest people aren't fully compensated for their labor. Hence, redistribution instituted to ameliorate this phenomenon.

Then of course there is the compassion and charity component. Helping out impoverished kids who need financial assistance.

I do not rule our greed as a factor but what plagues your argument is your unsupported and at this moment unreasonable assumption greed is the only reason, on the basis of nothing more than "you" can't possibly fathom it being anything else.
 
Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

A good example is the fact in some industries the final product is sold, in aggregate or individually, for more than what it cost to obtain the materials and assemble the product. So, if a product is sold in the aggregate for $1 million dollars then the value for the labor is $1 million dollars, of course divided by the number of laborers if there is more than one laborer.

You are arguing that because profit is made, then employees are underpaid? That is perhaps the worst argument I have heard in a while, and I've heard some bad ones.
 
Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

A problem with your argument is the conclusion is based upon very debatable and contentious premises. Your premise "everyone is fully compensated for their labor because it's only worth what people are willing to pay for it" is a very debatable premise and compelling arguments exits suggesting this is false.

If you agree to perform a particular action in exchange for payment, and you are paid as per the agreement, then you have been fully compensated.
 
Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

You are arguing that because profit is made, then employees are underpaid? That is perhaps the worst argument I have heard in a while, and I've heard some bad ones.

Then you do not understand the argument because it is a good argument. Furthermore, I actually said the existence of profit is a factor, a strong factor, in determining a laborer is not fully compensated for their labor. The "bad" is your failure to comprehend the argument.
 
Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

Then you do not understand the argument because it is a good argument. Furthermore, I actually said the existence of profit is a factor, a strong factor, in determining a laborer is not fully compensated for their labor. The "bad" is your failure to comprehend the argument.

What determines compensation for labor if not its market competition?
 
Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

If you agree to perform a particular action in exchange for payment, and you are paid as per the agreement, then you have been fully compensated.

No the conclusion doesn't follow. You have a lovely non-sequitur. The conclusion which does follow is the laborer is paid in accordance to the agreement but it does not follow the agreed upon pay constitutes as "full compensation." It is possible to not "fully compensate" someone for their labor by agreement.
 
Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

A problem with your argument is the conclusion is based upon very debatable and contentious premises. Your premise "everyone is fully compensated for their labor because it's only worth what people are willing to pay for it" is a very debatable premise and compelling arguments exits suggesting this is false.

You haven't introduced a shred of evidence to support your assertion. All this is and nothing more is "your own rationalization" and nothing more. You have presented an unsubstantiated argument built upon debatable assumptions. It's a pathetic argument.

Your argument assumes people are fully compensated for their labor, and because they are, then redistribution on the notion of helping people because they are underpaid is false. Yet you just declare, without more, people are fully compensated for their labor. There is some very compelling arguments and evidence suggesting this is false for some fields.

A good example is the fact in some industries the final product is sold, in aggregate or individually, for more than what it cost to obtain the materials and assemble the product. So, if a product is sold in the aggregate for $1 million dollars then the value for the labor is $1 million dollars, of course divided by the number of laborers if there is more than one laborer.

Yet we know the laborer doesn't get fully compensated because of the existence of profits. I'm not casting any aspersions on the existence of profits but rather using their existence to demonstrate, as evidence, the laborer isn't fully compensated for their labor. (The aggregate amount made off of the product is a factor in determining whether someone is fully compensated but a strong one).

My point here is your comment as "imaginary" the notion people are not fully paid for their labor is at this point baseless whereas there is evidence, and very compelling arguments, to suggest people aren't fully compensated for their labor. Hence, redistribution instituted to ameliorate this phenomenon.

Then of course there is the compassion and charity component. Helping out impoverished kids who need financial assistance.

I do not rule our greed as a factor but what plagues your argument is your unsupported and at this moment unreasonable assumption greed is the only reason, on the basis of nothing more than "you" can't possibly fathom it being anything else.

If every single person had adequate food, shelter and clothing sufficient to meet their basic needs, you'd still want to take from the rich and give to people like yourself. It's greed. Face it. Own it.
 
Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

If every single person had adequate food, shelter and clothing sufficient to meet their basic needs, you'd still want to take from the rich and give to people like yourself. It's greed. Face it. Own it.

No actually I wouldn't. You just failed miserably as a mind reader, adhere to your forte of making bad arguments instead.
 
Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

No the conclusion doesn't follow. You have a lovely non-sequitur. The conclusion which does follow is the laborer is paid in accordance to the agreement but it does not follow the agreed upon pay constitutes as "full compensation." It is possible to not "fully compensate" someone for their labor by agreement.

Say A and B agree that B will pay A a sum of money contingent upon A performing a particular action. A performs the action and B pays him the agreed upon amount. What else ought A expect from B? How has A been under-compensated?
 
Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

What determines compensation for labor if not its market competition?

We aren't discussing just "compensation" but whether a laborer had been fully paid for their labor.
 
Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

We aren't discussing just "compensation" but whether a laborer had been fully paid for their labor.

Labor has been fully paid upon fulfillment of the working agreement. It's a rather simple concept. When a farmer sells his crops on the open market, he receives what he considers full compensation...
 
The justification for wealth-redistribution.

No actually I wouldn't. You just failed miserably as a mind reader, adhere to your forte of making bad arguments instead.

Well, then you shouldn't want wealth redistribution since virtually everyone in this country does have basic food , shelter and clothing and you still want wealth redistribution. No one is starving naked in the streets here. So that makes you someone who isn't honest as well as someone who covets the property of others.
 
Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

Say A and B agree that B will pay A a sum of money contingent upon A performing a particular action. A performs the action and B pays him the agreed upon amount. What else ought A expect from B? How has A been under-compensated?

If the amount agreed upon does not constitute as "full" compensation for the labor, then the laborer is under compensated. What your argument ignores is the fact people can, by agreement, be underpaid or agree to be under paid.

You somehow think an "agreement" remedies being underpaid but it doesn't. All an agreement achieves is nothing more than a meeting of the minds regarding the labor performed and the pay for the labor but the agreement says nothing to the question of whether the pay constitutes as "full" compensation for labor performed.
 
Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

If the amount agreed upon does not constitute as "full" compensation for the labor, then the laborer is under compensated. What your argument ignores is the fact people can, by agreement, be underpaid or agree to be under paid.

You somehow think an "agreement" remedies being underpaid but it doesn't. All an agreement achieves is nothing more than a meeting of the minds regarding the labor performed and the pay for the labor but the agreement says nothing to the question of whether the pay constitutes as "full" compensation for labor performed.

This is a silly argument. Are you the determiner of who is underpaid rather than who is receiving the compensation?
 
Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

What determines compensation for labor if not its market competition?

Lots of things.

You don't think that "market competition" is what results in a CEO making $40,000,000 do you? For every CEO making millions of dollars a year, there are probably a thousand people who are just as well qualified, educated, smart, hard working, and willing to accept that same job at a fraction of the price.
 
Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

If the amount agreed upon does not constitute as "full" compensation for the labor, then the laborer is under compensated. What your argument ignores is the fact people can, by agreement, be underpaid or agree to be under paid.

You somehow think an "agreement" remedies being underpaid but it doesn't. All an agreement achieves is nothing more than a meeting of the minds regarding the labor performed and the pay for the labor but the agreement says nothing to the question of whether the pay constitutes as "full" compensation for labor performed.

What do you mean by "full"?

Let's pose a scenario. Let's say I hire a painter. I ask him to spray paint up to 100 square feet of material, and for that action I will pay him $50.

How do you know whether I have paid him "full" compensation for his labor?
 
Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

Lots of things.

You don't think that "market competition" is what results in a CEO making $40,000,000 do you? For every CEO making millions of dollars a year, there are probably a thousand people who are just as well qualified, educated, smart, hard working, and willing to accept that same job at a fraction of the price.

But no one is willing to pay them to do that particular job... :mrgreen:
 
Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

Well, then you shouldn't want wealth redistribution since virtually everyone in this country does have basic food , shelter and clothing and you still want wealth redistribution. No one is starving naked in the streets here. So that makes you someone who isn't honest as well as someone who covets the property of others.

No not everybody does have the basics without financial assistance. What your comment ignores is the fact we don't have "Potterville" and there aren't people "starving naked in the streets" is because of the present redistribution. How exactly you missed this point is rather stunning.
 
Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

This is a silly argument. Are you the determiner of who is underpaid rather than who is receiving the compensation?

Amazing reply, your mere assertion it is a "silly argument."
 
Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

Then you do not understand the argument because it is a good argument. Furthermore, I actually said the existence of profit is a factor, a strong factor, in determining a laborer is not fully compensated for their labor. The "bad" is your failure to comprehend the argument.

I comprehend it perfectly fine. The profit, neither in total profit nor in margin has squat to do with compensation for an employee. Your argument was that if a company has excess profits, well then the employees are not being compensated enough. That is beyond stupid.
 
Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

If the amount agreed upon does not constitute as "full" compensation for the labor, then the laborer is under compensated.

Whoah! The old "if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle argument". Powerful stuff, LOL!!!!
 
Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

No not everybody does have the basics without financial assistance. What your comment ignores is the fact we don't have "Potterville" and there aren't people "starving naked in the streets" is because of the present redistribution. How exactly you missed this point is rather stunning.

Maybe if there were less assistance, their would be fewer births where there was no ability to provide inherent support...
 
Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

Whoah! The old "if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle argument". Powerful stuff, LOL!!!!

Why am I not surprised your comment above is a lovely strawman argument of my position?
 
Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

We aren't discussing just "compensation" but whether a laborer had been fully paid for their labor.

It's rare that employees are ever "fully compensated" for what they do. Otherwise, companies wouldn't be able to have a profit, which would result in entrapanures not wanting to start companies.

Wages are determined mostly by negotiating power, and the party with the most negotiating power tends to "get over" on the party with the least negotiating power. there are a lot of things that go into negotiating power, like job skills and education, but those who have the highest incomes tend to also have things like celebrity and cronyism and even corruption come into play.
 
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