The justification for wealth-redistribution.[W:2037]

[PMZ]

Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

Of course, you also have to look at Both Jefferson's in order to really understand that.

The young Jefferson was a firebrand, a firebrand reactionary, who believed in constant revolution. He submitted an alternate proposal to what would become the Constitution, then was sent to France for a decade. However, if he was present in the US at the time, I have no doubt Jefferson would have been an Anti-Federalist to Madison's Federalist.

One of the best things about that man was he became President and grew up. Seeing France tear itself apart ended any thoughts he had of eternal revolution. And even though he strongly believed in "true Democracy" when younger, even he admitted that his Louisiana Purchase exceeded his authority, was likely against the Constitution, but needed for the country to thrive and grow.



I am curious, who was the last Democrat who ran by telling people "I am going to do all that I can to get people out of the housing projects, and off of welfare and Food Stamps, so they can move out of their ghetto projects and have better lives"?

This is the secret that the Class Warriors do not want you to know. That anybody (unless they are seriously mentally handicapped or have serious mental issues) can create wealth themselves.

Anybody.

All it takes is getting off of your fat ass and doing something of value to somebody else.

The real question is, how come you are not as successful as I am? I put myself through engineering school and worked for a fortune 500 company as an engineer and manager for a whole career. If I did it, anybody can. How come you took the easy way through life?

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

*sneezes*

Sorry, my BS detector was going off there.

You are buying into the fantasy Jefferson, the one he used for campaigning.

One of the wealthiest people in Virginia, plantation and slave owner, one of the most aristocratic of all "Founding Fathers", and you talk about him being "for the people"?

Wow, you really don't know anything about the man at all, do you?




How Obama has gutted welfare reform - The Washington Post

I can go on, but there really is no need. And I am going to stop talking now before I say something really nasty that could get me kicked off this thread.

Apparently you don't.

 

[Papa bull]

Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

So, in your opinion, taking an irresponsible or criminal person and starving him, will make him responsible.

Associate working with eating isn't starving people. It's giving people the option to feed themselves instead of going hungry.

 

[PMZ]

Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

Associate working with eating isn't starving people. It's giving people the option to feed themselves instead of going hungry.

So his is your formula for taking irresponsible people and, doing an extreme makeover, making them responsible. Not starving them but making them hungry.

You are delusional.

 

[PMZ]

Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

Personal responsibility is paying your own bills. He was calling for personal responsibility. You were bashing him for it.

"Personal responsibility is paying your own bills".

A la Obamacare for people being payed enough to.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

The real question is, how come you are not as successful as I am? I put myself through engineering school and worked for a fortune 500 company as an engineer and manager for a whole career. If I did it, anybody can. How come you took the easy way through life?

I am not an engineer.

I could be doing much better if I had stuck with programming. I was good at it, but I hated it. My wife is in the medical field, but I could not even imagine doing what she does for a living.

However, I have also taken a significant amount of time over the years (over 15) and spent them in the Government Sector you could say. So by the time I re-entered the workforce, I was significantly behind my peers. But I still did alright.

But the question is not me, I have not lived "off the dole", I got work, and kept working through a variety of careers. The issue really is those who have given up because it is easier to take a handout.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

I am just going to share a little something with you, it is something that was said by a man far wiser then I am:

“If a man is called to be a street sweeper, he should sweep streets even as a Michelangelo painted, or Beethoven composed music or Shakespeare wrote poetry. He should sweep streets so well that all the hosts of heaven and earth will pause to say, 'Here lived a great street sweeper who did his job well.”

I am not an engineer, I am also not a Doctor nor an Auto Mechanic. However, I am good at what I do and take pride in that.

As we have seen however, there are always people wanting and willing to tear others down, telling them they are failures and that you should just give up and settle for being in the trash. And they then take pride in giving you bits and pieces of trash as they whine about others not giving up enough trash for you to survive on.

Myself, I want to see everybody out of that trash heap, so they can achieve the most they can.

 

[PMZ]

Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

I am not an engineer.

I could be doing much better if I had stuck with programming. I was good at it, but I hated it. My wife is in the medical field, but I could not even imagine doing what she does for a living.

However, I have also taken a significant amount of time over the years (over 15) and spent them in the Government Sector you could say. So by the time I re-entered the workforce, I was significantly behind my peers. But I still did alright.

But the question is not me, I have not lived "off the dole", I got work, and kept working through a variety of careers. The issue really is those who have given up because it is easier to take a handout.

You missed the point. Every one of us starts naked and stupid. We are all born into an environment not of our choosing. We all emerge from that into a world based on the capabilities that our environment taught and allowed us.

You did well. I did very well. Bill Gates did spectacularly well monetarily and contributorily. Some end up in the gutter from the get go, some wait until later in life to get there. Some are wealthy and wasted some just wasted.

What does it matter?

All you and I control is our own adult life. All that matters is how much each of us is satisfied with what we achieve against what's important to us.

Comparing ourselves to others is pure waste.

You were dealt some cards, you've played the hand that you were dealt, it's solitaire, not Texas Holdum.

The winner is the one who successfully assumes the most responsibility.

 

[PMZ]

Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

I am just going to share a little something with you, it is something that was said by a man far wiser then I am:

“If a man is called to be a street sweeper, he should sweep streets even as a Michelangelo painted, or Beethoven composed music or Shakespeare wrote poetry. He should sweep streets so well that all the hosts of heaven and earth will pause to say, 'Here lived a great street sweeper who did his job well.”

I am not an engineer, I am also not a Doctor nor an Auto Mechanic. However, I am good at what I do and take pride in that.

As we have seen however, there are always people wanting and willing to tear others down, telling them they are failures and that you should just give up and settle for being in the trash. And they then take pride in giving you bits and pieces of trash as they whine about others not giving up enough trash for you to survive on.

Myself, I want to see everybody out of that trash heap, so they can achieve the most they can.

They say that liberals and conservatives want the same thing.

Liberals for everyone.

You sound quite liberal.

 

[Master PO]

Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

"you believe democracy is a good form of government, where I think it is vile"

Clearly you need to find a more tyrannical government, who will admit you to the ruling class, in order to exert the control that you need to have over others.

REALLY?.............James Madison father of the constitution --- democracy is the most vile form of government.

John Adams An Essay on Man's Lust for Power
Categories: Democracy
Date: August 29, 1763
[D]emocracy will soon degenerate into an anarchy, such an anarchy that every man will do what is right in his own eyes and no man's life or property or reputation or liberty will be secure, and every one of these will soon mould itself into a system of subordination of all the moral virtues and intellectual abilities, all the powers of wealth, beauty, wit and science, to the wanton pleasures, the capricious will, and the execrable cruelty of one or a very few.

John Adams letter to John Taylor
Categories: Democracy
Date: April 15, 1814
Remember democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.

James Madison The Federalist Papers Federalist No. 10
Categories: Democracy
Date: November 23, 1787
[D]emocracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security, or the rights of property; and have, in general, been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths.

Fisher Ames speech in the Massachusetts Ratifying Convention
Categories: Democracy
Date: January 15, 1788
The known propensity of a democracy is to licentiousness which the ambitious call, and ignorant believe to be liberty.


Alexander Hamilton Speech at the Constitutional Convention
Categories: Democracy, Liberty / Freedom, Republican Government
Date: June 26, 1787
We are now forming a republican government. Ideal liberty is neither found in despotism or the extremes of democracy, but in moderate governments.

you really do not understand at all.

you seem to think if you give all direct power to" we the people"...that they are going to be nice and fair, and do everything lawful.........however this is NOT TRUE, the people will be corrupted by power, as a single king would be.

"absolute power corrupts absolute"

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

REALLY?.............James Madison father of the constitution --- democracy is the most vile form of government.

John Adams An Essay on Man's Lust for Power
Categories: Democracy
Date: August 29, 1763
[D]emocracy will soon degenerate into an anarchy, such an anarchy that every man will do what is right in his own eyes and no man's life or property or reputation or liberty will be secure, and every one of these will soon mould itself into a system of subordination of all the moral virtues and intellectual abilities, all the powers of wealth, beauty, wit and science, to the wanton pleasures, the capricious will, and the execrable cruelty of one or a very few.

John Adams letter to John Taylor
Categories: Democracy
Date: April 15, 1814
Remember democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.

James Madison The Federalist Papers Federalist No. 10
Categories: Democracy
Date: November 23, 1787
[D]emocracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security, or the rights of property; and have, in general, been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths.

Fisher Ames speech in the Massachusetts Ratifying Convention
Categories: Democracy
Date: January 15, 1788
The known propensity of a democracy is to licentiousness which the ambitious call, and ignorant believe to be liberty.


Alexander Hamilton Speech at the Constitutional Convention
Categories: Democracy, Liberty / Freedom, Republican Government
Date: June 26, 1787
We are now forming a republican government. Ideal liberty is neither found in despotism or the extremes of democracy, but in moderate governments.

you really do not understand at all.

you seem to think if you give all direct power to" we the people"...that they are going to be nice and fair, and do everything lawful.........however this is NOT TRUE, the people will be corrupted by power, as a single king would be.

"absolute power corrupts absolute"

James Madison also supported a large central government, kind of ironic:lol:

 

[Master PO]

Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

James Madison also supported a large central government, kind of ironic:lol:

Madison was a federalist during the convention, however he became a anti-federalist early on, when he left the the ideas of Hamilton, and became a close friend of jefferson.

 

[PMZ]

Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

REALLY?.............James Madison father of the constitution --- democracy is the most vile form of government.

John Adams An Essay on Man's Lust for Power
Categories: Democracy
Date: August 29, 1763
[D]emocracy will soon degenerate into an anarchy, such an anarchy that every man will do what is right in his own eyes and no man's life or property or reputation or liberty will be secure, and every one of these will soon mould itself into a system of subordination of all the moral virtues and intellectual abilities, all the powers of wealth, beauty, wit and science, to the wanton pleasures, the capricious will, and the execrable cruelty of one or a very few.

John Adams letter to John Taylor
Categories: Democracy
Date: April 15, 1814
Remember democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.

James Madison The Federalist Papers Federalist No. 10
Categories: Democracy
Date: November 23, 1787
[D]emocracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security, or the rights of property; and have, in general, been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths.

Fisher Ames speech in the Massachusetts Ratifying Convention
Categories: Democracy
Date: January 15, 1788
The known propensity of a democracy is to licentiousness which the ambitious call, and ignorant believe to be liberty.


Alexander Hamilton Speech at the Constitutional Convention
Categories: Democracy, Liberty / Freedom, Republican Government
Date: June 26, 1787
We are now forming a republican government. Ideal liberty is neither found in despotism or the extremes of democracy, but in moderate governments.

you really do not understand at all.

you seem to think if you give all direct power to" we the people"...that they are going to be nice and fair, and do everything lawful.........however this is NOT TRUE, the people will be corrupted by power, as a single king would be.

"absolute power corrupts absolute"

There are only two kinds of groups in a population. Majorities and minorities. If a majority is in charge, freedom from government and minorities bent on imposing what's best for them, on others, is maximized. All other possibilities reduce freedom.

Do the math without the founders help.

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

Madison was a federalist during the convention, however he became a anti-federalist early on, when he left the the ideas of Hamilton, and became a close friend of jefferson.

LOL, trying to rewrite history? Jefferson did not support a big central government.

 

[Master PO]

Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

LOL, trying to rewrite history? Jefferson did not support a big central government.

i was very clear.............however he became a anti-federalist early on, when he left the the ideas of Hamilton, and became a close friend of jefferson.

 

[PMZ]

Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

LOL, trying to rewrite history? Jefferson did not support a big central government.

Who lined up on which side became, once the Constitution was ratified, irrelevant. Only what they agreed to, and wrote into the Constitution is.

We either govern by the Constitution or we abandon it or amend it into a different Constitution. There are no other choices.

 

[Master PO]

Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

There are only two kinds of groups in a population. Majorities and minorities. If a majority is in charge, freedom from government and minorities bent on imposing what's best for them, on others, is maximized. All other possibilities reduce freedom.

Do the math without the founders help.

he is what you do not understand at all.......


to give one person......or small group people.......or all of the people.......total direct power it is dangerous...........as the founders state.. and Polybuis a ancient Greek who is reference in the federalist papers who created mixed government.

because 1 person with all power will become a "dictator"

the small group will become an "oligarchy"

all the people, will become the "MOB"


why is it you think giving all direct power to the people is going to be right true and fair........it is not the majority will rule over the minority, and freedom will be lost.

 

[PMZ]

Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

i was very clear.............however he became a anti-federalist early on, when he left the the ideas of Hamilton, and became a close friend of jefferson.

You are very clear, but irrelevant. It's the Constitution as debated, agreed to, written, ratified and subsequently amended, that is the foundation for our rule of law.

Nothing else.

 

[Master PO]

Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

You are very clear, but however he became a anti-federalist early on, when he left the the ideas of Hamilton, and became a close friend of jefferson.. It's the Constitution as debated, agreed to, written, ratified and subsequently amended, that is the foundation for our rule of law.

Nothing else.

my statement is fact not irrelevant.......becuase i discussed madison and jefferson..........again that is not irrelevant..it is fact


all your doing is tossing out words, which have no meaning on statements, and talking about things you know nothing of.

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

i was very clear.............however he became a anti-federalist early on, when he left the the ideas of Hamilton, and became a close friend of jefferson.

May I see the evidence upon which your basing this assertion.

 

[PMZ]

Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

he is what you do not understand at all.......


to give one person......or small group people.......or all of the people.......total direct power it is dangerous...........as the founders state.. and Polybuis a ancient Greek who is reference in the federalist papers who created mixed government.

because 1 person with all power will become a "dictator"

the small group will become an "oligarchy"

all the people, will become the "MOB"


why is it you think giving all direct power to the people is going to be right true and fair........it is not the majority will rule over the minority, and freedom will be lost.

Government and laws rule. That is the basis for civilization. We must hold each other accountable for responsible behavior, or accept chaos.

The only question is how those laws are decided and enforced.

Those decisions made by a majority, either directly or by the means of elected representatives, offer the maximum freedom from overly restrictive government and power seeking minorities and therefore maximize our freedom and our collaboration, both essential if we are to live as humans rather than animals.

 

[Master PO]

Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

Government and laws rule. That is the basis for civilization. We must hold each other accountable for responsible behavior, or accept chaos.

The only question is how those laws are decided and enforced.

Those decisions made by a majority, either directly or by the means of elected representatives, offer the maximum freedom from overly restrictive government and power seeking minorities and therefore maximize our freedom and our collaboration, both essential if we are to live as humans rather than animals.

wrong............. in a democracy the people have all the power, and laws can be changed according to the will of the people........and the will of 51 is greater then the 49

 

[PMZ]

Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

my statement is fact not irrelevant.......becuase i discussed madison and jefferson..........again that is not irrelevant..it is fact


all your doing is tossing out words, which have no meaning on statements, and talking about things you know nothing of.

We are either a nation of duly ratified laws, or opinions.

Freedom comes from duly ratified laws. Tyranny from opinions.

 

[Master PO]

Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

May I see the evidence upon which your basing this assertion.

i will point you to things on the net....but i am not postings information for you., and wasting my time, as you will not read it.

do you want the information of where to look?

 

[PMZ]

Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

wrong............. in a democracy the people have all the power, and laws can be changed according to the will of the people........and the will of 51 is greater then the 49

Yes. The people. Not the aristocracy. Not the oligarchy. Not the plutarchy.

Fundamental to America.