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The justification for wealth-redistribution.[W:2037]

Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

One personality attribute of those who embrace conservatism is the need for control. Democracy requires adherents who will settle for their way half the time and the assumption that for they other half there must be good reason. Sort of respect for the wisdom of most people.

What, frankly, irritates me is that conservative media moguls have tried to sell the idea that because they don't respect democracy, America is not one. They offer the alternative of a "republic" which is a totally unrelated concept.

Bogus.

Absolutely. I learned a long time ago that anytime I say anything about the US being a "democracy" to preempt the "we are not a democracy we are a republic" argument in advanced by explaining that we are a "respresentative democracy that operates within a republic framework".

I think they just do that because they are losing the argument so they make a strawman argument to chance the topic.
 
Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

Absolutely. I learned a long time ago that anytime I say anything about the US being a "democracy" to preempt the "we are not a democracy we are a republic" argument in advanced by explaining that we are a "respresentative democracy that operates within a republic framework".

I think they just do that because they are losing the argument so they make a strawman argument to chance the topic.

It happens because people on the left try to argue that we are a democracy and, therefore, whatever the majority says goes. That's not he way this country works and pure democracy like that has never worked well. The majority just can't vote to redistribute the wealth of the minority. Or to suppress any other rights of the minority.
 
Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

You're not listening if you haven't heard greedy ass libs obsessing over he wealth of "the 1 percent".

And what are greedy-as libs? People who have craven desire for wealth than they have t earned and have no right to. Greed is wanting more than you deserve and that's what people who want wealth redistribution are guilty of; greed.

Liberals that I know object to extreme wealth inequity as it's demonstrably dysfunctional to society.

I told you that one of my heroes is Bill Gates. He recognizes that his accumulation of wealth should be reinvested in the world that produced it.

"People who have craven desire for wealth than they have t earned and have no right to. Greed is wanting more than you deserve and that's what people who want wealth redistribution are guilty of; greed."

A bizarre collection of words. In fact, you seem to be the poster boy for wealth as a source of envy. I don't need any of your money and am certainly not jealous of the wealthy, many of whom seem profoundly unhappy to me.

I do want a society that works adequately for as many people as possible. We used to have it here. Conservative government, business, and religion are threats to passing what's worthwhile on to my grandchildren. I want them to have, at the very least, a life as satisfying as I have.

Not too much to ask.
 
Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

It happens because people on the left try to argue that we are a democracy and, therefore, whatever the majority says goes. That's not he way this country works and pure democracy like that has never worked well. The majority just can't vote to redistribute the wealth of the minority. Or to suppress any other rights of the minority.

The majority is the way things are decided here whether we are talking about who represents us, how laws are made, or the Supreme Court's opinion on Constitutionality. You had your chance to convince a majority that conservatism works, but it's failure was convincing to most of us.

The fact that you ignore that evidence doesn't give you a right to impose it on the majority.
 
Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

Liberals that I know object to extreme wealth inequity as it's demonstrably dysfunctional to society.

I told you that one of my heroes is Bill Gates. He recognizes that his accumulation of wealth should be reinvested in the world that produced it.

"People who have craven desire for wealth than they have t earned and have no right to. Greed is wanting more than you deserve and that's what people who want wealth redistribution are guilty of; greed."

A bizarre collection of words. In fact, you seem to be the poster boy for wealth as a source of envy. I don't need any of your money and am certainly not jealous of the wealthy, many of whom seem profoundly unhappy to me.

I do want a society that works adequately for as many people as possible. We used to have it here. Conservative government, business, and religion are threats to passing what's worthwhile on to my grandchildren. I want them to have, at the very least, a life as satisfying as I have.

Not too much to ask.

We still have a very functional society. Our poor have not truly gotten any poorer just because the rich are getting richer. It's pretty silly to assume there is something sinister and wrong about the people who are best at creating wealth getting wealthier while the people most definite NOT good at creating wealth aren't. There is no reason why we should expect the income of burger flippers to increase at the same ratio as entrepreneurs and investors. It's ridiculous.
 
Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

In my experience only wealthy people obsess over wealth.

Those who spend all their time talking about how 'unfair' it is that the wealthy are wealthy are the only one's obsessing.

One of my many personal heroes is Bill Gates. He played his hand as well as anyone, bettered the business world for half his life and is now bettering the entire world with his fortune.

Bill gates started as a lying con man that stole the work of others, and to this day he has used his ill gotten gains to maintain his empire and force people to pay too much for crap software.
 
Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

What, frankly, irritates me is that conservative media moguls have tried to sell the idea that because they don't respect democracy, America is not one. They offer the alternative of a "republic" which is a totally unrelated concept.

You really haven't studies the founding of the USA have you? Or much about it's government, eh? It become more obvious with each post.

But I guess when one see's their job in life to force government to steal from those they are jealous of and give to them, all the tiny details don't matter, as long as they get their check.
 
Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

We still have a very functional society. Our poor have not truly gotten any poorer just because the rich are getting richer. It's pretty silly to assume there is something sinister and wrong about the people who are best at creating wealth getting wealthier while the people most definite NOT good at creating wealth aren't. There is no reason why we should expect the income of burger flippers to increase at the same ratio as entrepreneurs and investors. It's ridiculous.

What I believe is that each of us can create wealth through the diligent application of what we've been given by life. And we are all owed a significant portion of the wealth that we create. If all markets were perfect, that's pretty much how things would work out. And it has been true in our past.

However, despite the application of reasonable safeguards, capitalism did exactly what it is supposed to. It moved wealth in the direction of wealth. Not in the direction of value created.

To maintain a functional, stable society, there has to be a corrective counter flow. And that has been successfully done in our past.

Despite that counter flow, America now has achieved nearly world record wealth inequity. And the wealthy have purchased unfettered influence not just in government but, even more threateningly, over the electorate through their investments in mass media.

The safeguards given us by our founders were not our rights but our democracy. And when money can buy influence over the electorate to the degree it has today, even democracy is impotent.

Is it too late to recover? Maybe. But, maybe not. It's up to the electorate and our ability to shed media influence over our decisions.
 
Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

You really haven't studies the founding of the USA have you? Or much about it's government, eh? It become more obvious with each post.

But I guess when one see's their job in life to force government to steal from those they are jealous of and give to them, all the tiny details don't matter, as long as they get their check.

You are almost completely wrong about everything in this post.
 
Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

...There is no reason why we should expect the income of burger flippers to increase at the same ratio as entrepreneurs and investors. It's ridiculous.

Sure, there is no reason we should expect that. But it would improve our economy and create more wealth, if it happened.

We can create whatever we want, a good economy or a bad economy. It's our choice, and I do believe that most of us would prefer a good economy.
 
Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

Those who spend all their time talking about how 'unfair' it is that the wealthy are wealthy are the only one's obsessing.

Thats mostly conservatives who spend their time talking about how it is "unfair" that rich people have to pay more in taxes than the non-rich.

Bill gates started as a lying con man that stole the work of others, and to this day he has used his ill gotten gains to maintain his empire and force people to pay too much for crap software.

There you go. A conservative talking about how "unfair" it is that someone got wealthy, and how that wealth was "ill gotten" and how we are all forced to pay too much for his products. Interesting.
 
Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

Sure, there is no reason we should expect that. But it would improve our economy and create more wealth, if it happened.

We can create whatever we want, a good economy or a bad economy. It's our choice, and I do believe that most of us would prefer a good economy.

I don't think it would have the positive effect you think to just start giving more money for nothing, taking from those who earn it and redistributing it to those that didn't. Lose the tie to value and you lose the anchor to reality and the result is uncontrolled inflation and disincentive to produce. And worst of all, we buy that kind of failure with an inherently unjust manipulation. We will just have to disagree in the "benefit" of wealth redistribution.
 
Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

You are almost completely wrong about everything in this post.

No, based on your previous statements, it's pretty clear you don't know jack about the founding and formation of this nation. But feel free to drop some of your knowledge on us, as we haven't seen any yet.
 
Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

Thats mostly conservatives who spend their time talking about how it is "unfair" that rich people have to pay more in taxes than the non-rich.

I understand that you don't comprehend the difference between defending equality and calling for institutionalized inequality based on jealousy.

There you go. A conservative talking about how "unfair" it is that someone got wealthy, and how that wealth was "ill gotten" and how we are all forced to pay too much for his products. Interesting.

Ah, some spin that fails. Again.
 
Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

If you're getting what you're worth, what does it matter if someone else who invented the miracle super-widget desired by every man, woman and child on the planet gets paid the fortune that he earns? Wealth inequality is only unjust if it is a result of force.

Again, this is a very clever thing to say, but it makes a lot of assumptions.

Value is a variable thing, changing with conditions. However, just like a river there becomes a point at which the bight becomes too excessive and force becomes assumed. Again, in the case of the Pullman strike (perfect example), no one forced the people to work at the company. . . they simply needed jobs, as to afford food/ shelter. The company then paid them according to the cost of company housing, however when the companies margins started to shrink they paid the workers less, but kept the cost of rent in company houses the same.

This wasn't intentionally forced, especially in the beginning, but as the power dynamic shifted the workers were eventually forced to deal with unsustainable conditions. This is something that happened countless times during that period, and is exactly how our worker protection programs developed.

We are looking at the same thing now, where several multinational companies have bought up essentially everything (from food, to media) and are squeezing the general population. It's even reached the point where these companies actually have the ability to determine national elections, especially where a candidate needs to have commercial air time to even dream of being elected.

Look at the 2012 election, both the corporate sponsored candidates received massive amounts of air time and as a result swept the election. Gary Johnson, an extremely viable candidate was not given the air time due to a lack of corporate sponsorship and therefore received less than 2 million votes.

Currently people won't vote for someone who isn't on television all the time, because they refuse to do research. Multinational companies take advantage of this and push their sponsored candidates, to the exclusion of anyone else.

It's a self perpetuating cycle, which will break eventually.


You work and your neighbor doesn't. You get rich and he doesn't. No matter how much more wealth you create than your neighbor it is not unjust. It would be unjust if your neighbor was, by some force of law, not permitted to create his own wealth but that's not the case here. So why does any extent of wealth inequality become unjust? I find the hope diamond. How much of my wealth is unjust?

Except, for many effort isn't a question. Getting ahead of covering basic needs simply isn't going to happen. The free market has worked itself into a place where the overwhelming majority of people are stuck, like indentured servants. Sure some can break free, but that requires lots of luck.

Eventually the free market will work itself out, happened in France. Hopefully we won't get to that point here though, that's what the management of the system is for.
 
Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

No worries about a "French Revolution" here. Losers have always wanted to eat the rich here and everywhere else but since we subsidize losers and no one goes hungry in this country the OWS wet dreams you seem to have aren't going to materialize. Besides, you lefties would need to wait till you have a lot more. Success with your gun grabbing agenda before you march with your pitchforks but, Enjoy your fantasies, though. Everyone has to have a dream.
 
Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

No worries about a "French Revolution" here. Losers have always wanted to eat the rich here and everywhere else but since we subsidize losers and no one goes hungry in this country the OWS wet dreams you seem to have aren't going to materialize. Besides, you lefties would need to wait till you have a lot more. Success with your gun grabbing agenda before you march with your pitchforks but, Enjoy your fantasies, though. Everyone has to have a dream.

In the United States, we subsidize everyone.

Corporate

Poor

Rich

Otherwise.

Hell, we even subsidize foreign countries. But that's not the issue under discussion.

I'm not actually advocating for pitchforks, or even government intervention. The government has gotten the whole intervention thing wrong at ever turn. I'm a happy capitalist, who's quite comfortable (materially and otherwise). In a bloody revolution, I might actually be one of the people to lose my head.

What I'd rather see is companies take action on their own, to avoid such things. Companies like Costco or In-N-Out are taking good strides in the right direction. They compensate workers well enough to afford not only a living, but also the ability to consumer some excess. By doing this they are helping the economy and building valuable employees.
 
Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

If you are 'sure' of it, then you haven't done much studying of the founding of our nation or how we got there, as it has nothing to do with the people having 'joy' in their lives.

No, I've done plenty of studying. Not that it takes a lot to see "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." written write into the Declaration of Independence.

What is pursuit of happiness, if not joy?
 
Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

Read 'em and weep boys.

The assets that were once in the pockets of middle America now rest in the fat bank accounts of the top 5% of the fatcats that have you guys bamboozled.

Hey, that's just the way it is. It needs to be fixed.
I'm working my ass off to try to keep what I got in MY pocket, in MY pocket. You wanna roll over and blow the rich, go for it.
If this was true wouldn't you be here hear a whole lot less than you are?
 
Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

Well, it either gets passed to the middle class or the government gets starved and essentially needs to cease specific services/programs which I think is the real motive behind today's GOP.
LOL. This is humor at its dumbest.
 
Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

No worries about a "French Revolution" here. Losers have always wanted to eat the rich here and everywhere else but since we subsidize losers and no one goes hungry in this country the OWS wet dreams you seem to have aren't going to materialize. Besides, you lefties would need to wait till you have a lot more. Success with your gun grabbing agenda before you march with your pitchforks but, Enjoy your fantasies, though. Everyone has to have a dream.

I certainly hope that you are right.

I don't understand this sentence. "Losers have always wanted to eat the rich here"

I'm pretty sure that was said at Versailles too.

Do you really believe that all who aren't wealthy are losers and there are no wealthy losers?

What a bizarre world you live in.
 
Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

I certainly hope that you are right.

I don't understand this sentence. "Losers have always wanted to eat the rich here"

I'm pretty sure that was said at Versailles too.

Do you really believe that all who aren't wealthy are losers and there are no wealthy losers?

What a bizarre world you live in.

Yeah , I'm sure it's bizarre to you to demand personal responsibility or to acknowledge that only losers want to take what others earned instead of going out and seeking and working for their own fortune. Rich or poor is irrelevant. Losers want to steal what they didn't earn.
 
Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

Value is a variable thing, changing with conditions.

It doesn't matter what a river does, flipping burgers in NEVER $15 an hour work. It's unskilled labor, at the bottom of the pool. Want more? Do better for oneself.


Not that it takes a lot to see "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." written write into the Declaration of Independence.

There is so much ignorance in the above statement it's simply amazing.
 
Re: The justification for wealth-redistribution.

It doesn't matter what a river does, flipping burgers in NEVER $15 an hour work. It's unskilled labor, at the bottom of the pool. Want more? Do better for oneself.




There is so much ignorance in the above statement it's simply amazing.

Businesses that don't pay full time workers a living salary, require government subsidies of the poor that they create.
 
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