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The House Energized!!!

galenrox said:
This is off topic, but it reminded me of something. My buddy is a wacky liberal, like way out there. His family has a tendency of taking in stray pit bulls, and not taking them to training or anything, and the way he trained his dog is he saw her get into a fight with their other dog, and so he kicked the crap out of the dog.
Anyway, he's a firm believer that a dog should be a dog, and any action to "make it a human puppet" as he called it (taking it to puppy school at petsmart) would be wrong. I've actually had to ban him from around the puppy because he took up trying to make her unlearn what we had taught her.
Seems like a similar thing, some liberals don't understand what comes naturally isn't always what's best.

Galen, I don't think honest liberals claim some of the really extreme environmental wackos out there. I know conservatives don't claim the really extreme nut cases out there on the far fringes of the right. I have always believed that with a lot less partisanship and a lot more effort, liberals and conservatives could come to agreement on a lot of things that would solve problems and accomplish what both most want.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
I am sorry, I think you do care about the environment, but unfortunately I think you are rather misinformed.
  • Selective logging many times can be a good thing. It is the type of logging that conservationists all champion. Where it can be a problem is in roadless areas where human intervention is minimal to nonexistent. If you open those areas up to thinning you have to build roads and once you build roads you make it a lot easier for invasive species to introduce themselves and for people to carelessly set fires. The best solution for roadless areas is to allow nature to do what nature has done for millions of years. If they catch fire, let them burn.
Now, that said, like I say, selective thinning can mean much healthier forests in areas that have been previously logged or that have been developed such as the presence of roads or communities. I those areas where fire has been suppressed for as much as 100 year years, tree densities are at times much higher than they would have been without fire suppression and are at levels where disease and catastrophic fire risks are exceptionally high. Most mainstream environmental groups support this type of thinning and this is evidenced by the fact that only about 3% or so of thinning projects are blocked in the courts. You have a few wackos that try to block everything but they are hardly ever successful.

That all said, the reason that timber companies choose to thin certain tracks of land instead of clear cutting them has nothing to do with ecological considerations. What influences that choice is what type of pine they plan on planting. Some types of pine do better when started in full sun as in the case of a clear cut and other types do better when started as an under story tree as in the case of selective thinning. Also, paper companies are more apt to clear cut, timber companies are more apt to thin. Both practices routinely occur in national forests as a result of timber sales.

  • There is no environmentally friendly way to conduct mountain top removal mining. Mountain top removal coal mining is a relatively new type of coal mining that involves clear cutting native hardwood forests, using dynamite to blast away 800-1000 feet of mountaintop, and then dumping the debris into nearby valleys forever burying streams. Meanwhile, communities near these mining sites are forced to contend with; continual blasting from mining operations that can take place up to 300 feet from their homes and operate 24 hours/day, air pollution from dust and debris, and the threat of floods that have left hundreds dead and thousands homeless. In these communities, where homes are usually the only asset folks have, mining operations have damaged homes beyond repair and decreased property values up to 90%. Moreover, the worst environmental disaster in United States history was a result of mountain top removal mining practices. From a conservation standpoint, mountain top removal mining practices are absolutely indefensible. Even by your own anecdotal description of it, as a reasoned individual, I can’t imagine how you could think it was a good thing for the environment. If you don’t believe me, check out the photos of it here:
http://www.ohvec.org/galleries/mountaintop_removal/007/

Even mining operations that don’t involve mountain top removal at times can be very damaging to the environment. In the area I grew up in there were nearby magnetite mines. Streams that ran through the area they were mining were completely devoid of life and have been for 20 years since they finished all mining operations there and have done all the reclamation required by law.

My husband and I spent four months over the summer of 1984 in West Virginia and pretty well explored the entire state as well as the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia. There was evidence of mining activity here and there but we saw nothing like the pictures in your link. So this is new activity a phenomenon of the mid to late 1980's to present?

I found some links that give it some additional perspective, maybe. It seems that Federal law requires the miners to reclaim and restore the land; however West Virginia is not enforcing the requirements. I don't know. I'm not there anymore.

http://www.wvgs.wvnet.edu/www/mtrm/wvgesmtr.pdf

http://www.osmre.gov/mountaintopfaq.htm

http://wvgazette.com/static/series/mining/

Federal laws require reclamation. West Virginia is not complying.
http://wvgazette.com/section/Series/Mining+the+Mountains/200306171
 
AlbqOwl said:
My husband and I spent four months over the summer of 1984 in West Virginia and pretty well explored the entire state as well as the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia. There was evidence of mining activity here and there but we saw nothing like the pictures in your link. So this is new activity a phenomenon of the mid to late 1980's to present?

I found some links that give it some additional perspective, maybe. It seems that Federal law requires the miners to reclaim and restore the land; however West Virginia is not enforcing the requirements. I don't know. I'm not there anymore.

http://www.wvgs.wvnet.edu/www/mtrm/wvgesmtr.pdf

http://www.osmre.gov/mountaintopfaq.htm

http://wvgazette.com/static/series/mining/

Federal laws require reclamation. West Virginia is not complying.
http://wvgazette.com/section/Series/Mining+the+Mountains/200306171


Mountain top removal is a relatively new practice of mining. Federal Law does require reclamation. However, they are not rebuilding the mountain, just doing some basic cleanup like making sure that the slurry is contained and things like that. The area streams are all still poisoned, the tops of the mountains are still gone, and the soil of course is non existent which makes it difficult for extensive vegetation to reestablish. Basically, the area is scarred for the next few thousand years at least. That is why there is no true “clean coal” technology. The fact that West Virginia is extremely lax in enforcing environmental cleanup and regulations is exactly why you have to have extensive federal oversight. This is what the conservationist groups have been screaming for decades. As you could see from those photos, those mining companies have no vested interest in environmental protection, they only have an interest in maximizing profits. Such environmental atrocities are not just limited to the coal mining industry either. I am an avid outdoorsman, I love to canoe, backpack, fish, hunt, and just get outside. So this is a subject that I care a lot about and that I try to be as knowledgeable as I can about. You say it’s arrogant to presume that Republicans don’t care about the environment. I never said that many Republicans don’t. There is a group of Republicans that Barry Goldwater was a member of that advocate the same type of conservation and environmental policies that environmentally conscious Democrats advocate. The difference between environmentally conscious Republicans who advocate policies endorsed by groups like the League of Conservation Voters and the Environmental Defense fund and those who do not is only the level to which they are informed on the matter.
 
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