The Genius Act, or, the Fake money Act, the latter is obviously the truth.

[The Brad Dad]

We've been the fake money capital of the planet since 1972. Dollars aren't any more real than crypto

This is easily the most uneducated take I've read on this forum and I've seen *a lot* of your posts.

 

[johnwk]

This is easily the most uneducated take I've read on this forum and I've seen *a lot* of your posts.

Well, the poster did write "We've been the fake money capital of the planet since 1972. Dollars aren't any more real than crypto", which fails to make the distinction between "dollars" and "Federal Reserve Notes", so I have to agree with you on this.

 

[Safiel]

(This post is basically a preface for the much, much briefer next post.)

In 1786/1787, the Congress of the Confederation defined the dollar as being 375.64 grains of silver, based on the existing circulating Spanish dollar, which would continue to serve as alternative legal tender in the United States until 1857.

The Constitution and the Bill of Rights were ratified and came into effect between then and 1791.

The Constitution mentions the word dollar only twice, once in the original document and once in the Bill of Rights:

Article I:

Section. 9. The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a Tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person.

Amendment VII

In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

Here is what the Constitution has to say on the subject of **money.**

Section. 8. The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

Section. 10. No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.

The Constitution never defines the dollar or even declares that the dollar must be the monetary unit of the United States. Taxes on slaves and jurisdictional limits for jury trials are given in what would be presumed to be the 1786/1787 Continental defined silver dollar, but again, the Constitution never defines a dollar.

In 1792, CONGRESS passes the Coinage Act of 1792 and defines the dollar as 371.25 grains of silver. At a later point, a bimetallic standard is adopted, making the dollar convertible in gold or silver.

The Civil War arrives and Congress emits paper money to pay for it. Paper money depreciates and its constitutionality is challenged in court. The final result is the Legal Tender Cases of 1871. Paper money is constitutional.

We fought the battle of gold and silver during the 1880's and 1890's.

Then the arrival of the Federal Reserve (bills of credit tied to the overall government debt). FDR ended the gold standard in 1933. Nixon broke the final link in 1971.

Since then (1971), United States Dollar is an esoteric, theoretical term. There IS no definition of United States Dollar. It is not definable. It floats freely.

A dollar is worth what ever it happens to be worth on any given day, at any given moment in time.

And all of this is Constitutional.

The Constitution authorizes the Federal Government to coin money and prohibits the States from doing so. It forbids the States from emitting bills of credit, but is silent as to the Federal Government emitting bills of credit.

It forbids States from making anything but gold and silver a tender in payment of debt, but does NOT forbid the Federal Government from doing the exact same thing.

Since 1965, coins have been tokens only, bereft of intrinsic value exceeding the face value of the coin. Otherwise, people would be hoarding them and melting them for the metal, which was the reason for the change in 1964.

A Federal Reserve Note is not a United States Dollar, but is denominated in United States Dollars. It floats freely with the dollar and with the token coins.

There is not, never has been and never will be a Constitutionally defined "dollar."

The United States Dollar is currently an esoteric concept, changing value day by day and even hour by hour as more money is printed as as the total real wealth of society changes.

What is sought by some is to bring back is a silver dollar comprised of either 375.64 or 371.25 grains of silver and tied to the value of silver in the coin.

That ship sailed for good 112 years ago.

 

[Safiel]

Alrighty, with all the above said.

Crypto-currency is just another technical "method" of conveying and transferring United States Dollars.

Cash.

Checks.

Credit Cards.

Debit Cards.

Banks/Credit Unions.

Crypto.

All just forms/methods of storing/conveying United States Dollars.

Crypto is perfectly constitutional.

I am not a fan of it, but no constitutional bar to it.

 

[johnwk]

There is not, never has been and never will be a Constitutionally defined "dollar."

By the terms of our Constitution, Congress is vested with power to coin money and regulate the value thereof. Using that authority Congress defined the dollar under the Coinage Act of April 2, 1792 SECTION 9. Section 9 does in fact articulate a constitutionally defined "dollar".

 

[Safiel]

By the terms of our Constitution, Congress is vested with power to coin money and regulate the value thereof. Using that authority Congress defined the dollar under the Coinage Act of April 2, 1792 SECTION 9. Section 9 does in fact articulate a constitutionally defined "dollar".

The Coinage Act did NOT create a constitutionally defined dollar. ONLY THE TEXT OF THE CONSTITUTION ITSELF could do that, and it doesn't do that. Congress defined the dollar.

In any event, that act was repealed long ago and doesn't matter a damn bit in 2025.

What does matter is what is in the statutes TODAY.

Subchapter I of 31 USC articulates our monetary system in three short sections.

§5101. Decimal system​

United States money is expressed in dollars, dimes or tenths, cents or hundreths, and mills or thousandths. A dime is a tenth of a dollar, a cent is a hundredth of a dollar, and a mill is a thousandth of a dollar.

§5102. Standard weight​

The standard troy pound of the National Institute of Standards and Technology of the Department of Commerce shall be the standard used to ensure that the weight of United States coins conforms to specifications in section 5112 of this title.

§5103. Legal tender​

United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues. Foreign gold or silver coins are not legal tender for debts.

AT NO POINT does the statute define the United States Dollar in terms of any intrinsic substance. It says that United States Money is expressed in Dollars, cents, etc, but does not define these, except in fractional terms.

Today, the dollar is an esoteric concept. It may buy 1/3rd a gallon of gasoline one day, 1/4th a gallon the next.

And it would be stupid the legislatively tie the dollar to a commodity or basket of commodities. In a centralized fractional reserve system, the currency MUST depreciate over time as the government spends.

Currency reform could ONLY occur in the context of a 100% transition from centralized fractional reserve banking to a free banking or 100% reserve banking system.

The ONLY Congressman remotely interested in doing that was Ron Paul and he is gone from Congress.

Neither Trump nor any Member of Congress, Republican or Democrat, is remotely interested in any reform of either the monetary system or banking system.

 

[reinaert]

I guess a metallist can still see crypto as a scam.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

Well, the poster did write "We've been the fake money capital of the planet since 1972. Dollars aren't any more real than crypto", which fails to make the distinction between "dollars" and "Federal Reserve Notes", so I have to agree with you on this.

Profound Thoughts On Currency
A One Act Play

Groucho: Feet are no more real than meters.

Gummo: You failed to make a distinction between “feet” and “12-inch-wooden-rulers-used-to-represent-feet” so I have to agree with you on this.

 

[Safiel]

I guess a metallist can still see crypto as a scam.

A metal standard simply cannot be done in a fractional reserve banking system. FDR took us off the gold standard in 1933 and Nixon took us off the gold exchange standard in 1971 for good reason.

Additionally, it doesn't work very well if one country is using metal and everybody else is not, because the metal will rapidly flow out of the country.

The OP is trying to unrealistically turn back the clock and it is simply never going to happen, nor should it.

 

[johnwk]

The Coinage Act did NOT create a constitutionally defined dollar.

Congress was not granted by the Constitution the power to "coin money and regulate the value thereof"? If it is granted such power, then the Coinage Act of April 2, 1792 SECTION 9. Section 9 does in fact articulate a constitutionally defined "dollar".

 

[johnwk]

The OP is trying to unrealistically turn back the clock and it is simply never going to happen, nor should it.

Abiding by the text of our Constitution and its documented "legislative intent", which gives context to its text, is not trying to "turn back the clock, but rather, adhering to our Constitution.

Our Founders intentionally forbid bank notes, such as Federal Reserve Notes, to be made a legal tender.

For those who are not familiar with our founder’s specifically stated intentions, here is what transpired during the convention with regard to bank notes being made a legal tender. SEE The Debates in the Federal Convention of 1787, reported by James Madison : August 16


Mr. Govr. MORRIS moved to strike out "and emit bills on the credit of the U. States"-If the United States had credit such bills would be unnecessary: if they had not, unjust & useless.


Mr. BUTLER, 2ds. the motion.

Mr. MADISON, will it not be sufficient to prohibit the making them a tender? This will remove the temptation to emit them with unjust views. And promissory notes in that shape may in some emergencies be best.


__ cut ___



Mr. READ, thought the words, if not struck out, would be as alarming as the mark of the Beast in Revelations.


Mr. LANGDON had rather reject the whole plan than retain the three words "(and emit bills")

On the motion for striking out
N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct ay. N. J. no. Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md. no. Va. ay. [FN23] N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

[FN23] This vote in the affirmative by Virga. was occasioned by the acquiescence of Mr. Madison who became satisfied that striking out the words would not disable the Govt. from the use of public notes as far as they could be safe & proper; & would only cut off the pretext for a paper currency, and particularly for making the bills a tender either for public or private debts.

The irrefutable fact is, our founding fathers intended the market place, and only the market place, to determine what notes, if any, were safe and proper to accept in payment of debt, and they specifically chose to forbid folks in government to make a particular bank note, or any “note”, a legal tender, which if allowed would literally force people and business owners to accept worthless script in payment of debt.

JWK

“Of all the contrivances for cheating the laboring class of mankind, none have been more effectual than that which deludes them with paper money. This is the most effectual of inventions to fertilize the rich man’s field by the sweat of the poor man’s brow.”__Senator Daniel Webster, May 25th, 1832

 

[johnwk]

Profound Thoughts On Currency
A One Act Play

Groucho: Feet are no more real than meters.

Gummo: You failed to make a distinction between “feet” and “12-inch-wooden-rulers-used-to-represent-feet” so I have to agree with you on this.

Here is a pictorial version showing the distinction which may help you.





The average cost of gas in 2011 was approximately $3.52 per gallon.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

Here is a pictorial version showing the distinction which may help you.


View attachment 67581338


The average cost of gas in 2011 was approximately $3.52 per gallon.

It isn’t clear what point you think you are making. A 1933 Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle is worth $19 million.

The little $ in $19 million, indicates how many dollars the coin is worth. The denomination of the coin is $20, but that is not its exchange value.

You seem to labour under the delusion that if a coin that was denominated as $20 sells for $20 million, that somehow means that 1 “real” dollar is equivalent to one million dollar-denominated reserve notes, but that just isn’t how it works.

Dollars are a unit of value. The exchange value of a $1 bill is one dollar of value, whereas the exchange value of a 1933 Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle is 19 million dollars of value.

 

[johnwk]

It isn’t clear what point you think you are making.

I'm sure it isn't clear to you. Fake money does delude some.

JWK

All the perplexities, confusions, and distresses in America arise, not from defects in the Constitution or confederation, not from want of honor or virtue, as much as from downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit, and circulation. John Adams

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

I'm sure it isn't clear to you. Fake money does delude some.

JWK

All the perplexities, confusions, and distresses in America arise, not from defects in the Constitution or confederation, not from want of honor or virtue, as much as from downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit, and circulation. John Adams

Perhaps you should take heed of Mr. Adams’ words and educate yourself about the nature of coin, credit, and circulation.

The value of currency is derived from people’s willingness to use it as a medium of exchange. That was still as true when our currency was tied to silver as it is today.

Dollars are a unit of measurement for comparing the value of one thing with the value of another. Fiat currency serves that function more effectively than currency tied to a commodity. It is a useful tool.

If a hammer is successfully driving real nails, it isn’t a fake hammer.

 

[johnwk]

Perhaps you should take heed of Mr. Adams’ words and educate yourself about the nature of coin, credit, and circulation.

Unlike some others, I do understand the distinction between Federal Reserve Notes and United States Dollars

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

Unlike some others, I do understand the distinction between Federal Reserve Notes and United States Dollars

No. You don’t.

 

[johnwk]

No. You don’t.