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The gap between the rich and the poor

TurtleDude

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128shot said:
just to re-inforce the point.



Career development is cruicial between these years. 25-30.


Guess when most people have kids?


between 19-30.

the less educated the younger. When I was at law school, I can't think of more than a couple people (save for some older students who had careers and then entered law school) who had children. The only one I can specifically remember was an orthodox Jewish Girl-that apparently was common but it didn't stop her from making Law Review even though it took her a couple extra years to graduate. None of the associates at my old firm had kids when they started at the firm. My son wasn't born til I was 38-that is rare and we wanted a kid earlier, However, very few of my friends who are 6 figure earners had children before they were in their late 20's
 
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I think you all have hit the nail on the head as a great reason for poor people being in the financial situation they are. Having children out of wedlock, or at a ridiculously young age automatically puts you behind the 8-ball in life. I'll quote myself:

The poor are so because they make poor decisions.
 

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Red State Sage said:
I think you all have hit the nail on the head as a great reason for poor people being in the financial situation they are. Having children out of wedlock, or at a ridiculously young age automatically puts you behind the 8-ball in life. I'll quote myself:

The poor are so because they make poor decisions.

Heh, I like your quote from Thomas Jefferson. If I was their at the time he said that, I would say, "Yeah Tommy man, you need to stop living off the labor of your industrious slaves. You're being a parasite dude."
 

ngdawg

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Middle-class is 300k a year????? Good lord, I'm poor....
I worked for a private family business, nationally known and had been around for over 100 years. Only the immediate family members were officers, the CEO at the time I worked there was hitting 80. He drove a 20 year old Mercedes, his wife's car not much older. The sons, on the other hand, always had new cars, their wives wore fur coats and they had no trouble charging expensive trips to the company. Then the old man died....those sons turned right around, sold the business and took off with their money.
Not every rich person makes the right decisions, sometimes they just have to be arrogant enough to not care about making wrong ones that take their money from them.
I will admit not every decision I have made, nor the spouse, has been great when it comes to financial success, but we keep plugging, have necessities and a few UNnecessities and the kids do well.
Sometimes the poor stay poor because they give up too easy. Yes, that's a bad decision as well, but if no one shows them how to make some right ones, how do they learn to? It's a cycle.....and as things get more and more expensive, it's grows more ominous and hopeless.
 
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ngdawg said:
Sometimes the poor stay poor because they give up too easy. Yes, that's a bad decision as well, but if no one shows them how to make some right ones, how do they learn to? It's a cycle.....and as things get more and more expensive, it's grows more ominous and hopeless.
In America we bend over backwards trying to help the indigent. We've got more social welfare programs than any of us care to elaborate about. They've got job training and educational opportunities just waiting for them to enroll in and better themselves. How many of you have heard the radio commercials advertising some welfare programs and the ways for people to sign up? Yeah, really, our government is running commercials (also costing tax payer dollars) begging people to enroll in programs.

Like I said earlier, they lack ambition and desire. You can't legislate that into people, or tax the rest of us into the ground, then give our hard-earned money away and expect that to change things. We tried that, remember, for 40 years, and it didn't work!

I hate to say it, but it's true - there has always been poverty, and there will always be poverty. Some people are just too sorry to be anything other than what they are. In America, if you can't find a way to make ends meet and be a productive part of society, then the onus is on you. You can't blame anyone but yourself.
 

cnredd

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ngdawg said:
I worked for a private family business, nationally known and had been around for over 100 years.
Heidi Fleiss?...:2wave:
 
H

HTColeman

Old and wise said:
Being rich is a matter of posessing intelligence and ambition and applying it well.

Being poor is a matter of lack of intelligence and ambition which is a perfect recipe for staying poor.

Even the Bible (Proverbs) say that there are many reasons for being poor. Some are poor because of oppression, some because of laziness. People are rich because they are smart, but some are rich because they lie, steal, cheat, and manipulate. IMHO, it is foolish to caste such a simple judgement on something so complicated as wealth. The smartest, most ambitious student will never get rich if they don't have regular meals. Rags to riches stories are very rare, except in fiction. It is foolish to say that everyone who is poor are stupid and lazy, and everyone who is rich are intelligent and ambitious (Paris Hilton?)

In terms of the Bible, whether you believe it or not, it does have some common wisdom, lack of ambition or laziness is detested and foolishness is also detested, however the poor are to be cared for and treated equally, sloths and fools are to be punished. If the poor are to cared for, how can they be sloths and fools?

Also, you must look at demographics of poverty. Hispanics and African-Americans are 2x more likely to be poor when compared to whites. Native Americans are noted as the most disadvantaged minority. Is this because most blacks, hispanics, and native americans are stupid and lazy? No, it reveals a deeper complicated social problem.
 

TurtleDude

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Is this because most blacks, hispanics, and native americans are stupid and lazy? No, it reveals a deeper complicated social problem.
__________________
It mostly involves cultural pathologies. Its amazing how many Jews came to this country after surviving the holocaust-no money, many had no education, they couldn't speak English and lo and behold, a generation or two later, their children are attending top universities, law schools and medical schools way beyond their percentages in society.

BOat people came here 30 or so years ago with nothing, the reminders of an unpopular and unsuccessful war and they manage to turn out several rhodes scholars: I believe all three military academies have had a boat person or a boat person's kid as valedictorian-something blacks have never done.

Look at any magazine article about spelling bee, geography or math competitions-3/4 of the kids are Indian or Chinese.

on the other hand, black kids who try to achieve academically are ridiculed as being white. I represented a school district in a mixed area-all middle to upper middle class. Black kids had a 5X disciplinary rate over white kids and the head of the school and several high ranking administrators were black so it wasn't like white teachers or leaders treating black kids badly
 
H

HTColeman

TurtleDude said:
Is this because most blacks, hispanics, and native americans are stupid and lazy? No, it reveals a deeper complicated social problem.
__________________
It mostly involves cultural pathologies. Its amazing how many Jews came to this country after surviving the holocaust-no money, many had no education, they couldn't speak English and lo and behold, a generation or two later, their children are attending top universities, law schools and medical schools way beyond their percentages in society.

BOat people came here 30 or so years ago with nothing, the reminders of an unpopular and unsuccessful war and they manage to turn out several rhodes scholars: I believe all three military academies have had a boat person or a boat person's kid as valedictorian-something blacks have never done.

Look at any magazine article about spelling bee, geography or math competitions-3/4 of the kids are Indian or Chinese.

on the other hand, black kids who try to achieve academically are ridiculed as being white. I represented a school district in a mixed area-all middle to upper middle class. Black kids had a 5X disciplinary rate over white kids and the head of the school and several high ranking administrators were black so it wasn't like white teachers or leaders treating black kids badly

I don't recall reading about 200 years of slavery and then 200 hundred following years of oppression in the Jews history in America. The two minorities history are so completely different that you cannot compare the two. Two minorities have a history of being enslaved from the start of America, Native Americans and African Americans, and both are still disadvantaged today, but this is not about race, people aren't poor because they are black or indian or minority. People are poor because of a variety of reasons and you can't stereotype them all as stupid and lazy.
 

TurtleDude

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HTColeman said:
I don't recall reading about 200 years of slavery and then 200 hundred following years of oppression in the Jews history in America. The two minorities history are so completely different that you cannot compare the two. Two minorities have a history of being enslaved from the start of America, Native Americans and African Americans, and both are still disadvantaged today, but this is not about race, people aren't poor because they are black or indian or minority. People are poor because of a variety of reasons and you can't stereotype them all as stupid and lazy.


I didn't-I noted that there are cultural pathologies that weigh against academic achievement.

We had a law clerk a few years ago. She was as black as they come but she was raised by a white family who adopted several kids of different ethnicities so she had two white brothers, a korean sister and a hispanic brother and sister

funny thing is she made top grades at a very good local lawschool (she decided to stay near home rather than pay the big bucks to go to one of the top ten schools she was accepted at) made the law review (a first for a black) and clerked for a district judge.

her hispanic siblings did as well

she used to tell me she was so happy she was raised in a white family where no one would ridicule her for getting good grades except for a few blacks at her HS. I met her white and hispanic brothers-I don't think she got too much grief because they were seriously big dudes who all were star football players
 

TurtleDude

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HTColeman said:
I don't recall reading about 200 years of slavery and then 200 hundred following years of oppression in the Jews history in America. The two minorities history are so completely different that you cannot compare the two. Two minorities have a history of being enslaved from the start of America, Native Americans and African Americans, and both are still disadvantaged today, but this is not about race, people aren't poor because they are black or indian or minority. People are poor because of a variety of reasons and you can't stereotype them all as stupid and lazy.


I didn't-I noted that there are cultural pathologies that weigh against academic achievement.

We had a law clerk a few years ago. She was as black as they come but she was raised by a white family who adopted several kids of different ethnicities so she had two white brothers, a korean sister and a hispanic brother and sister

funny thing is she made top grades at a very good local lawschool (she decided to stay near home rather than pay the big bucks to go to one of the top ten schools she was accepted at) made the law review (a first for a black) and clerked for a district judge.

her hispanic siblings did as well

she used to tell me she was so happy she was raised in a white family where no one would ridicule her for getting good grades except for a few blacks at her HS. I met her white and hispanic brothers-I don't think she got too much grief because they were seriously big dudes who all were star football players

as to the Jews-try talking about almost 10 times the persecution blacks endured.

persecution of the jews seemed to make them tougher and smarter-wonder why that didn't happen with the blacks.
 
H

HTColeman

TurtleDude said:
I didn't-I noted that there are cultural pathologies that weigh against academic achievement.

We had a law clerk a few years ago. She was as black as they come but she was raised by a white family who adopted several kids of different ethnicities so she had two white brothers, a korean sister and a hispanic brother and sister

funny thing is she made top grades at a very good local lawschool (she decided to stay near home rather than pay the big bucks to go to one of the top ten schools she was accepted at) made the law review (a first for a black) and clerked for a district judge.

her hispanic siblings did as well

she used to tell me she was so happy she was raised in a white family where no one would ridicule her for getting good grades except for a few blacks at her HS. I met her white and hispanic brothers-I don't think she got too much grief because they were seriously big dudes who all were star football players

Cultural? I think not, I was raised in a black family and I am glad I was. MLK and other leaders of the black community though dead, are big proponents of the culture and supported academics. Look at black public service announcements advocating staying in schools, etc. To say that blacks don't value education is to seriously misunderstand societal problems. The problem is rooted in history, and saying it is a personal problem worsens the problem.

as to the Jews-try talking about almost 10 times the persecution blacks endured.

Not in America, no minority in America shares the history of persecution in this country as African Americans have.

persecution of the jews seemed to make them tougher and smarter-wonder why that didn't happen with the blacks.

Your view of Jewish people is the result of media stereotypes, not truth. By your logic, Israel should be the richest nation.

P.S. I am ignoring your critical comment about blacks
 

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maybe it is media culture talking, but the Jews do seem well off from a world stand point...

Israel has many contacts in the international community, very powerful ones, willing to help anytime.
 

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TurtleDude said:
I noted that there are cultural pathologies that weigh against academic achievement.
Very true. There is a good discussion of that in this column, Black rednecks and white liberals from last May. When the cultural baggage is left behind, poverty is also.
 
H

HTColeman

Diogenes said:
Very true. There is a good discussion of that in this column, Black rednecks and white liberals from last May. When the cultural baggage is left behind, poverty is also.

Once again, that is too simple a definition of the cause of poverty, culture. If the above column is correct, then it would mean that southern culture is the cause of poverty. But there is just as much poverty in the north as the south, also much of the percieved cultural differences btwn the north and south are imagined. Other than a different accent, there isn't much difference in the people in the North or South.

Poverty exists around the world, such an international issue cannot have one or two simple causes.
 

Stu Ghatze

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128shot said:
Is it just money that seperates those who are rich and those who are poor?

I don't think so, I think being rich is a state of mind, and you reaping those kindly profits is nothing but a sort of side effect, knowledge is power, they, and you must work to obtain this knowledge and take many a risk to do so.



On the flip side, I also think being poor is a bit of a state of mind, I mean if you just look at the general finachial habits between the both, you'll notice that the poor purchases more liabilitys and the rich tend to purchase potentially profitable or profitable things, at least at up start. After that its all splurge money.

Knowledge is the real gap between the rich and the poor is my point here, and thats an easy fix.


please note: This is of course a generalization I came through by looking around my own neighbor and talking to an assorted array of people, and I just naturally applied it to everything, and I think it holds mighty merit...





You made some good points., but personnally I do not think it should matter how BIG the gulf is between the rich & poor, as ALL & any can CHOOSE their own lifestyle. Some lust for nothing but money, & others just lust to get by, & some are lazy, & some are workaholics!

If America was a communist/socialist country, ...you would be making a point, but it is not a communist government, ..at least as long as "LIBERALS" stay the hell out of political power it won't ever become a communist, or socialist country., ..God knows they are trying like hell to socialize America but cannot honestly EVER campaign on it!;)

Need asterik* Actually, the liberals WANT to keep ALL their OWN wealth, & put everybody else into a communist/socialist government, & economy, ..of course THEY also want to be the rulers of this Utopia too!
 

Stu Ghatze

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galenrox said:
Dude, why do you even talk?

Some liberals are socialists, some are capitalists. For example, I am a liberal, yet I subscribe a school of economic thought slightly to the left of the Chicago school.

Get this into your head: WHAT YOU THINK OF LIBERALS IS STEREOTYPES, YOU KNOW NOTHING OF ACTUAL LIBERALISM





Huh huh, ....You are quite incorrect about that! Tell me something, ..please:

Why is it that Liberal presidential candidates CAN NEVER campaign on what they REALLY believe in, & have to pretend to be somebody else, ..other than who they really are?

I rest my case! :2razz:
 
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galenrox said:
Get this into your head: WHAT YOU THINK OF LIBERALS IS STEREOTYPES, YOU KNOW NOTHING OF ACTUAL LIBERALISM
Oh, but you liberals have us conservatives completely figured out...:rofl
 

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Being rich is a matter of posessing intelligence and ambition and applying it well.

Being poor is a matter of lack of intelligence and ambition which is a perfect recipe for staying poor.


Oh yes, because we all know Paris "cum-guzzler" Hilton is a grade-A genius, right? Please. Being rich is not a matter of being intelligent for the simple fact that many smart, intelligent people are not wealthy, but poor, and many morons are wealthy.

Immorality and ruthless ambition do not translate into intelligence.
 

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HTColeman said:
Once again, that is too simple a definition of the cause of poverty, culture. If the above column is correct, then it would mean that southern culture is the cause of poverty. But there is just as much poverty in the north as the south, also much of the percieved cultural differences btwn the north and south are imagined. Other than a different accent, there isn't much difference in the people in the North or South.
Agreed that the regional differences are less important now than they were before the great industrial migrations following WWII, but the essential point of the article is a counterproductive culture which encourages and reinforces poor choices.

Stu Ghatze said:
You made some good points., but personnally I do not think it should matter how BIG the gulf is between the rich & poor, as ALL & any can CHOOSE their own lifestyle. Some lust for nothing but money, & others just lust to get by, & some are lazy, & some are workaholics!
Agreed, but I would go further and suggest that a large gap between rich and poor can be a good thing. My reason is that every young adult just entering the workforce is poor (spoiled rich kids like Paris Hilton are exceptions, but are a tiny minority), and a large gap gives them a goal to work toward. My parents, for instance, started married life with five college degrees between them in 1938, but they still slept on a bare mattress under an overcoat until they could afford furniture; twenty years later, they lived quite comfortably. Both I and my children have had similar experiences, and I expect that my grandchildren will also. The important thing is that everybody should have the opportunity to pursue their dreams, and reap the rewards or the consequences for their personal decisions.

Technocratic_Utilitarian said:
Immorality and ruthless ambition do not translate into intelligence.
True, but they do not always go together, and none of the three things you mention necessarily translate into success. A free market rewards contribution, and there are many ways to contribute. (There are a number of highly rewarded people whose contribution is zero or negative in my estimation - Wacko Jacko and Madonna, for instance - but that's just my personal prejudice, and it's not my decision to make.)
 
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HTColeman

Diogenes said:
Agreed that the regional differences are less important now than they were before the great industrial migrations following WWII, but the essential point of the article is a counterproductive culture which encourages and reinforces poor choices.

I see the point, i.e. much of rap music etc. But I do not think that could be identified as a cause of the gap between the rich and poor but rather a result.

Agreed, but I would go further and suggest that a large gap between rich and poor can be a good thing. My reason is that every young adult just entering the workforce is poor (spoiled rich kids like Paris Hilton are exceptions, but are a tiny minority), and a large gap gives them a goal to work toward. My parents, for instance, started married life with five college degrees between them in 1938, but they still slept on a bare mattress under an overcoat until they could afford furniture; twenty years later, they lived quite comfortably. Both I and my children have had similar experiences, and I expect that my grandchildren will also. The important thing is that everybody should have the opportunity to pursue their dreams, and reap the rewards or the consequences for their personal decisions.

Okay, here is what I am saying. I think we can all agree that due to social circumstances it is much harder to traverse this large gap between rich and poor. Sometimes a little harder, sometimes drastically harder. Let's take Tim and Bob. Tim comes from a middle class average family. His parents can afford college, tutors, SAT classes, private schools, etc. Bob lives in the middle of Detroit with his single mom. He can't afford the above and has to rely on himself to get through school and pay for college. If being successful is the goal, Tim does not have to be anywhere near as intelligent or ambitious as Bob in order to reach success. If Tim and Bob both have the same amount of intelligence/ambition, and Tim reaches success, it does not mean he made better choices or anything, he was simply closer to the goal.

I am not saying that this is every case, but there are just as many people, if not more, who are in Bob's position as opposed to simply being lazy.
 

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HTColeman said:
I see the point, i.e. much of rap music etc. But I do not think that could be identified as a cause of the gap between the rich and poor but rather a result.



Okay, here is what I am saying. I think we can all agree that due to social circumstances it is much harder to traverse this large gap between rich and poor. Sometimes a little harder, sometimes drastically harder. Let's take Tim and Bob. Tim comes from a middle class average family. His parents can afford college, tutors, SAT classes, private schools, etc. Bob lives in the middle of Detroit with his single mom. He can't afford the above and has to rely on himself to get through school and pay for college. If being successful is the goal, Tim does not have to be anywhere near as intelligent or ambitious as Bob in order to reach success. If Tim and Bob both have the same amount of intelligence/ambition, and Tim reaches success, it does not mean he made better choices or anything, he was simply closer to the goal.

I am not saying that this is every case, but there are just as many people, if not more, who are in Bob's position as opposed to simply being lazy.



Seems like an excuse to me.



What is education?



Please, define how sitting in school means you're "learning" something?



Librarys are the ultimate answer here.
 

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HTColeman said:
I see the point, i.e. much of rap music etc. But I do not think that could be identified as a cause of the gap between the rich and poor but rather a result.
I guess we'll continue to disagree on this point.

Okay, here is what I am saying. I think we can all agree that due to social circumstances it is much harder to traverse this large gap between rich and poor. Sometimes a little harder, sometimes drastically harder. Let's take Tim and Bob. Tim comes from a middle class average family. His parents can afford college, tutors, SAT classes, private schools, etc. Bob lives in the middle of Detroit with his single mom. He can't afford the above and has to rely on himself to get through school and pay for college. If being successful is the goal, Tim does not have to be anywhere near as intelligent or ambitious as Bob in order to reach success. If Tim and Bob both have the same amount of intelligence/ambition, and Tim reaches success, it does not mean he made better choices or anything, he was simply closer to the goal.
I see your point, and I agree that some people must work harder, sometimes much harder, than others to achieve success (however the individual chooses to define it). As Mark Twain caustically remarked, the key to success in life is to choose your ancestors with care. In reality each of us is born with a unique combination of handicaps and talents, and it is up to us as individuals to evaluate them and make the best of them. For those who reject victimization and are willing to work toward their dreams, a large gap between rich and poor only means there is no limit to what they can hope to achieve.

In 1962, Time magazine ran a picture of President Kennedy at a baseball game in San Francisco and provided a quick biography of his host: born in southwestern Russia in 1906, drafted into the Czarist army at the age of 11 (!), the Czarist government quickly collapsed, Lenin took over and cut a deal with the Germans to cede a third of the country to them. The kid's home was on the other side of the line, and he decided not to go home. He hitchhiked 5000 miles down the Trans-Siberian Railway to Vladivostok, survived on odd jobs for couple of months, and got a job as cabin boy on an American ship bound for the west coast. He arrived in San Francisco, 13 years old, no friends, no family, and knowing just as much English as he could pick up in three months on the ship. 43 yeas later he was a multi-millionaire real estate developer with his picture in a national magazine beside his good friend the president of the US.

Granted that the story is anecdotal, but it is symbolic of the fact that our society places no barriers in the way of someone who is driven to succeed; we don't care who your parents were, we only care about who you are. A free market society rewards contribution, and it is the responsibility of each individual to find a way to contribute. About 80% of our millionaires are self-made, and they are the most generous people on earth when it comes to helping others climb the ladder.
 
H

HTColeman

128shot said:
Seems like an excuse to me.



What is education?



Please, define how sitting in school means you're "learning" something?



Librarys are the ultimate answer here.

I don't catch your drift.



Diogenes said:
I guess we'll continue to disagree on this point.

I see your point, and I agree that some people must work harder, sometimes much harder, than others to achieve success (however the individual chooses to define it). As Mark Twain caustically remarked, the key to success in life is to choose your ancestors with care. In reality each of us is born with a unique combination of handicaps and talents, and it is up to us as individuals to evaluate them and make the best of them. For those who reject victimization and are willing to work toward their dreams, a large gap between rich and poor only means there is no limit to what they can hope to achieve.

In 1962, Time magazine ran a picture of President Kennedy at a baseball game in San Francisco and provided a quick biography of his host: born in southwestern Russia in 1906, drafted into the Czarist army at the age of 11 (!), the Czarist government quickly collapsed, Lenin took over and cut a deal with the Germans to cede a third of the country to them. The kid's home was on the other side of the line, and he decided not to go home. He hitchhiked 5000 miles down the Trans-Siberian Railway to Vladivostok, survived on odd jobs for couple of months, and got a job as cabin boy on an American ship bound for the west coast. He arrived in San Francisco, 13 years old, no friends, no family, and knowing just as much English as he could pick up in three months on the ship. 43 yeas later he was a multi-millionaire real estate developer with his picture in a national magazine beside his good friend the president of the US.

Granted that the story is anecdotal, but it is symbolic of the fact that our society places no barriers in the way of someone who is driven to succeed; we don't care who your parents were, we only care about who you are. A free market society rewards contribution, and it is the responsibility of each individual to find a way to contribute. About 80% of our millionaires are self-made, and they are the most generous people on earth when it comes to helping others climb the ladder.

I understand your point, anyone with ambition that matches their position in society can make it. I am not saying there is no American Dream, my dad is a rags to upper middle class riches story. I just think it is unfair to immediately condemn all of those who didn't make it, and praise all who did. It is not so black and white.
 

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you brought up the idea of "I'll throw a whole lot of money at my childs education because I think it'll work " vs "This is all we can afford, ok?"


The Money buys success theme....




total excuse. Education, if you are searching to learn and not expecting it to come to you, is almost free, or relatively inexpensive if you just want to learn.


Librarys, parentals, talk to you teachers about after school classes etc etc etc.

its the information age, lets use it.


Unless I totally misintrepeted the different between Bob and Tim....
 
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