• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

The five most promising cost controls in the health-care bill

1. Creates a competitive insurance market: Government takes over...again

2. Reforms Medicare: Assures it's destruction in 1/2 the time..

3. Taxes "Cadillac Plans": Damn the Constitution.. we make our own rules!

4. Bundles Costs: this ain't cable TV folks

5. Adds incentive for lowering costs.Or just runs private insurance companies off American soil providing complete socialized heathcare for all Americans

YEP ...does ALL those things!
:doh
 

Did you even read the article?
 

1. A couple of problems with this one. First, most people get their insurance from their employers so this will have no effect. Next we were told during the debate that in many states there are virtual monopolies. How are you going to both add competitors while reducing profits as this would suggest.

2. Time will tell on this one. We have talked about the fraud and abuse in Medicare for decades with no fixes.

3. As the article states this does not into effect until 2018. If it is that great an idea why wait so long? Also 27.5 thousand is 2X to 3X the cost of the average family plan so hard to see how this will get a lot of savings.

4. See #1

5. It will have experiments, but no real answers in this bill which is the tragedy. The article says congress will have to act or their constituents will get bad, guess what, they are mad already and congress clearly does not care.
 
I still don't get this "cadillac" plan tax.

If people are paying $27,000 premiums then they are probably paying WAY more than they will ever spend. For normal medical care w/o insurance.

It sounds like a bunch of voodoo economics, political labeling (E.g., "cadillac"), and poor reasoning for taxing plans that don't really provide anything unfair but higher premiums for less hassle at the doc's office.

It would be like taxing car insurance more for plans that cover expensive cars. It makes no sense except as a way to tax the wealthy in some strange way.
 
Last edited:
Ezra Klein - The five most promising cost controls in the health-care bill

Interesting read. To sum up, the ways that this bill helps medical costs:

1. Creates a competitive insurance market

His explanation for how this will create a more competitive insurance market is incredibly tenuous at best. First, the only people who will be affected by this are the 6-7% of the country that will be on the exchange. Second, the bulk of the "competitive" effect that he refers to will come from making it easier for consumers to pick between providers, like they do with those online auto insurance calculators. This is certainly a useful thing, but the impact will likely be minimal and there's no reason that it couldn't be done privately.

2. Reforms Medicare



That sounds strikingly similar to the Doc Fix, the AMT patch, and the PAYGO rules. They're great ways to tell the public that you'll be fiscally responsible in the future without actually having to follow through. Do you honestly believe that the same Congress (on either side) that passes the Doc Fix every year to avoid cutting reimbursement rates is now going to have the political courage to allow these cuts to come into play.

3. Taxes "Cadillac Plans"

There is absolutely no chance on earth that the excise tax will ever come into effect. None. It's already been pushed back to 2018, and I'd be astonished if it isn't pushed back or repealed before we even get that far.

4. Bundles Costs

This is a proposal that sounds like it might have a positive effect. Of course, it might also save no money or produce worse outcomes. Either way, this is hardly a monumental proposal.

5. Adds incentive for lowering costs.

His rationale on this point makes absolutely no sense. He first says that by adding more people to the system, there will be more people complaining about costs, which he concludes will make Congress more attentive. He then says that because Congress will be on the hook for the extra spending, it will have its own incentives to keep costs down.

This is absurd in two ways: First, people already complain constantly to Congress about health care. Does he actually think complaints about health care will increase now that more people are covered? Common sense would say that complaints would be larger when those people didn't have insurance at all.

Second, he really thinks that the threat of increased deficits will cause Congress to take bold action to cut medical costs? The same Congress that won't touch Medicare's unfunded liability with a 10 foot pole and that passes an annual doc fix every year that adds to the deficit and increases medical costs?

Ezra Klein is a smart guy, but there's no way that he can actually believe the things he writes.
 
klein posits:
The bill says congressmen and their staff members need to buy their insurance from these exchanges, too.
if that is the case then why is this measure in the present bill:
These multistate
plans will be offered separately from the
Federal Employees Health Benefit Program and
will have a separate risk pool.
page 13 of this http://www.kff.org/healthreform/upload/housesenatebill_final.pdf
there would seem to be no further reason to offer the Federal Employees Health Benefit Program if federal employees were going to be expected to buy insurance from the state/multi-state offerings

the Independent Medicare Advisory Board is touted to be the mechanism to adjust pricing of medicare in a way congress is not. but the key will be the 15 person panel ... how long until they too, are bought by the insurance industry. they should face strong, constant scrutiny, in order to actually be effective. if that is done, this is one promising aspect of the bill

taxing the cadillac plans is a bogus approach to increasing revenue. klein acknowledged that. but he makes this comment while articulating that taxing the cadillac plans is a legitimate effort: the cadillac plan will not tax the first dollar of these plans but only that portion which exceeds the ceiling. those high value employees who realize such plans pay little of them - seldom the 30% portion most pay for their employer provided plans. i see no real ability for this provision to actually do anything. it will not be a source of significant revenue and it will not hold down the size of the plans of the heavy hitters who enjoy them
excuse me. how is bundling going to actually save money? the physician cannot project how much care patients will require. so, are they going to price lean, recognizing that a bundle will deal with medical unknowns or price high in order to cover any unanticipated costs required to aid the patient. this is the democrats' version of voodoo economics
and it is unfortunate the republicans refused to participate in this debate. in the end, anti-trust protection is still available to the insurers and cross state competition is not. we lost the opportunity to introduce the competitiveness of buying from any plan available in any state; there is nothing about insurance which could not be provided across state lines. so why can't we purchase it that way?
hopefully, that will be rectified in round two
 
From FDL, responding to the same article:

Yes, The Health Bill Really Lacks Serious Cost Controls | FDL Action

 

Look how well the far-righties serve their sith masters...

They've got their talking points all memorized and ready spout without thought or explanation...
 
Look how well the far-righties serve their sith masters...

They've got their talking points all memorized and ready spout without thought or explanation...

Unlike the progressives.. WE make our own decisions as to what is good and bad according to the Founding Documents, the writings of the Founding Fathers and hold little regard for Madcow and the likes of her.. I understand how it works with liberals, so I don't blame you your confusion.
 
 
Ezra Klein is a smart guy, but there's no way that he can actually believe the things he writes.

I often get the impression the President feels the same way when he speaks.

Do you think the hypocrisy and lies are apparent to them and they trudge on relentlessly or do you think they actually believe the majority of what they say? This may be classified as a mental health issue under the new standards.
 
Last edited:
Look how well the far-righties serve their sith masters...

They've got their talking points all memorized and ready spout without thought or explanation...

This is amusing, because three other conservatives and a liberal all took the time to point out substantive criticisms of the article, but all you were able to do was mock the one person who offered a more visceral reaction.

Rather than call names and offer your own talking points, why not try to raise the level of debate, or at least meet that which the rest of us have already raised it to?
 
Rather than call names and offer your own talking points, why not try to raise the level of debate, or at least meet that which the rest of us have already raised it to?

OK then.. respond to this this statement:

"Fit not your brother the chains of entitlements and think it a kindness, for the sin of slavery is it’s true intent"
 

All this is good and done - somewhat.

But what I don't understand is why they're going to fine people for not having insurance, among other things that they're doing.
As well as their narrow minded focus on the portion of the CBO report that says that only for a limited time (10-29 years) *if* government spending stays at it's current point - will the plan reduce the deficit. If government spending goes up, and after 15-20 years go by - it will add to the deficit exponentially.

The bad outweigh the possible good.
 
Then comes the REAL math...

Deere sees $150 million hit from healthcare reform

The law could raise expenses for large U.S. employers.



Thursday, March 25, 2010
(Reuters) - Farm equipment maker Deere & Co (DE.N) expects after-tax expenses to rise by $150 million this year as a result of the healthcare reform law President Barack Obama signed this week.

Most of the higher expense will come in Deere's second quarter, the company said on Thursday. The expense was not included in the company's earlier 2010 forecast, which called for net income of about $1.3 billion.

Caterpillar Inc (CAT.N) said on Wednesday it would take a $100 million after-tax charge to earnings in the first quarter because the new law will lower its tax deductions. Obama on Tuesday signed the most sweeping U.S. social policy legislation in decades into law.........................

FOLKS... that is 5000, Five-thousand.... $50,000 jobs GONE! From just 2 companies!

GREAT JOB OBLABBA!
 
Last edited:

you speak of REAL MATH when what you demonstrate is a complete ignorance of BASIC ECONOMICS
 
you speak of REAL MATH when what you demonstrate is a complete ignorance of BASIC ECONOMICS

only using Whitehouse math ... I know I didn't use $250,000 per $50k job like the Stimulus jobs, but would you care to give me an explanation of my error?
 
only using Whitehouse math ... I know I didn't use $250,000 per $50k job like the Stimulus jobs, but would you care to give me an explanation of my error?

the math is not your problem. you seem capable of basic arithmetic
it is basic economics where you are lost in the weeds

the article you referenced indicated that john deere forecast earnings of $1.3 Billion, but was going to be about $150 Million short of that pro forma earnings amount because of the projected additional cost associated with new medical expenses (attributable to the Obamacare plan)
you lept to the wrong conclusion that would cost 3,000 jobs paying $50,000 per job
to use your "logic" we must then conclude that if john deere broke even, and did not earn any of its projected $1.3 Billion in profits, then it must be expected to shave its work force by 26,000 jobs (also paying $50,000 per job). the company has 51,300 employees. so, using your fuzzy economic "logic", john deere would cut over one half of its work force if it only broke even
that is not the way businesses are run
the only thing you would be able to conclude based on the data you had was that the profitability per employee was going to be reduced from $25,341 to $22,417 ... that john deere is anticipating the cost of the plan to absorb $2,924 per employee

again. your arithmetic skills are adequate. your understanding of economics - and business - is not

... you're welcome
 

Do you have a link to the article?
 
Cookies are required to use this site. You must accept them to continue using the site. Learn more…