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the false priesthoods in religion and science

laska

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I personally see no contradictions between true science and true religion. One uses a scientific method to try and determine truth of things that can be seen with the natural eyes that are true, the other uses a scientific method based on spiritual type evidence to determine the truth of things that cannot be seen by the natural eyes yet are true. My belief is in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and this religion embraces truth wherever it is found. I love the following quote from the Book of Mormon:
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]But to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God. (2 Nephi 9:28-29)[/FONT]
Studies have shown that the LDS produce a very high number of scientists per population. (Utah ranks number one in producing scientists per population in the U.S.http://www.meridianmagazine.com/sci_rel/020314lds.html) Studies have also shown that unlike most other religious groups, the greater the level of education by the Latter Day Saints, the more faith they have in their religious beliefs. It has been shown about 90 percent of LDS scientists believe in God and their religion, compared to about 40 percent from scientists on a whole.)

A few of the inventions of LDS scientists:
  • television - Philo Farnsworth
  • stereo sound - Harvey Fletcher
  • video games - Nolan Bushnell
  • modern word processor - Alan Ashton (WordPerfect)
  • CD/DVD technology - Robert B. Ingebretsen (plus other physicists, engineers and computer scientists at Brigham Young University and the University of Utah)
  • electric guitar - Alvino Rey
  • Zip drive - Iomega
  • NetWare (Network Operating System) - Drew Major
  • flatbed scanner
  • DOOM, Quake, Civilization, Age of Empires, etc. - Sandy Petersen
I guess the point I am trying to make is that there are many very intelligent people who have no problem embracing faith and science. The inconsistencies come in when false religion and false science enters into the picture.

false science

*materialsm-[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]False Principle: Nothing exists which cannot be observed."[/FONT]
* cannot perform the experiment to predict the future but still declares with absolute certainty just what the past and future are, even those it has no solid basis of experiments to do so."
*use of force in presenting their view of the past and future as truth(especially by those with agendas against and for creationism.)

false religion

*leaders and members not guided by direct revelation from God and have no real authority to speak for God(although they may claim to have.)
*tendency to have a history of using force to spread their message
*becuase the religion is based on human wisdom and interpretation of the sacred texts of a once living, revealed religion there is false doctrine and superstition mixed with varying degrees of truth.


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]


(The two italicized quotes under "false science" are from LDS scientist John Pratt.)
 
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Axismaster

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laska said:
I personally see no contradictions between true science and true religion. One uses a scientific method to try and determine truth of things that can be seen with the natural eyes that are true, the other uses a scientific method based on spiritual type evidence to determine the truth of things that cannot be seen by the natural eyes yet are true. My belief is in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and this religion embraces truth wherever it is found. I love the following quote from the Book of Mormon:
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]But to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God. (2 Nephi 9:28-29)[/FONT]
Studies have shown that the LDS produce a very high number of scientists per population. (Utah ranks number one in producing scientists per population in the U.S.) Studies have also shown that unlike most other religious groups, the greater the level of education by the Latter Day Saints, the more faith they have in their religious beliefs. It has been shown about 90 percent of LDS scientists believe in God and their religion, compared to about 40 percent from scientists on a whole.)

A few of the inventions of LDS scientists:
  • television - Philo Farnsworth
  • stereo sound - Harvey Fletcher
  • video games - Nolan Bushnell
  • modern word processor - Alan Ashton (WordPerfect)
  • CD/DVD technology - Robert B. Ingebretsen (plus other physicists, engineers and computer scientists at Brigham Young University and the University of Utah)
  • electric guitar - Alvino Rey
  • Zip drive - Iomega
  • NetWare (Network Operating System) - Drew Major
  • flatbed scanner
  • DOOM, Quake, Civilization, Age of Empires, etc. - Sandy Petersen
I guess the point I am trying to make is that there are many very intelligent people who have no problem embracing faith and science. The inconsistencies come in when false religion and false science enters into the picture.

false science

*materialsm-[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]False Principle: Nothing exists which cannot be observed."[/FONT]
* cannot perform the experiment to predict the future but still declares with absolute certainty just what the past and future are, even those it has no solid basis of experiments to do so."
*use of force in presenting their view of the past and future as truth(especially by those with agendas against and for creationism.)

false religion

*leaders and members not guided by direct revelation from God and have no real authority to speak for God(although they may claim to have.)
*tendency to have a history of using force to spread their message
*becuase the religion is based on human wisdom and interpretation of the sacred texts of a once living, revealed religion there is false doctrine and superstition mixed with varying degrees of truth.


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]


(The two italicized quotes under "false science" are from LDS scientist John Pratt.)
THOSE guys are LDS members?
 

Axismaster

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If those guys are Mormons, then I have a whole new light on them. I used to think they were stiff, but maybe not so much anymore.
 

HU-210

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* television - Philo Farnsworth
It was the german student Paul Gottlieb Nipkow who patented the television. Though Philo Farnsworth, a genius indeed, was elemental to the working of the television, Philo did not invent it.

* stereo sound - Harvey Fletcher
Alan Blumlein invented stereo sound.

* video games - Nolan Bushnell
Questionable. He worked closely with Ralph Baer and was not solely responsible for it.

* modern word processor - Alan Ashton (WordPerfect)
Questionable. He innovated word processor, but if you look at the modern word processor, a plethora of people have been involved. Please supply a source of him being mormon.

* CD/DVD technology - Robert B. Ingebretsen (plus other physicists, engineers and computer scientists at Brigham Young University and the University of Utah)
Philips was behind the development of CD's. David Paul Gregg invented laserdisc technology. Please prove David Paul Gregg was mormon.

* electric guitar - Alvino Rey
Please provide sources for Leo Fender, the inventor of the electric guitar, being mormon.

* Zip drive - Iomega
Iomega is not a person, it is a company. Please prove that the actual inventor of the zip drive is mormon.

* NetWare (Network Operating System) - Drew Major
Please provide sources that he was a mormon.

* flatbed scanner
What the? Who invented it, and was he mormon?

* DOOM, Quake, Civilization, Age of Empires, etc. - Sandy Petersen
Sandy Petersen is mormon, and did develop those games, but did not invent them. He was part of making him. You can't say that Scientology was behind Top Gun, merely because Tom Cruise is Scientologist.

I personally see no contradictions between true science and true religion.
Well, maybe you should look harder.

Mr U
 

laska

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I recieved this information from the following web site. http://www.adherents.com/largecom/fam_lds_inv.html.

The statue of Philo farnsworth at Washington's statuary Hall calls him the "inventor of the television." A google search of Philo Farnsworth shows many phrases such as "father of television", "inventor of television." Having read a few articles on him I do not think this is a misleading statement. biohttp://www.museum.tv/archives/etv/F/htmlF/farnsworthp/farnsworthp.htm


Henry Eyring-Illustrative contributions of LDS scientific and engineering excellence include the application of quantum mechanics to chemical reaction rate theories by the President's National Science Medal winner, Henry Eyring. Eyring's findings had universal application to chemical changes in scientific laboratories and industries.
LDS contributions led to the sound and sight of the modern world. These include the scanning technique that spawned television by Philo Farnsworth at Brigham Young University, whose statue is in the U.S. Capitol. Also, the development of the modern science of acoustics by Harvey Fletcher, the head of physical research at Bell Laboratories, led to such inventions as stereophonic sound. Dr. Fletcher later became Dean of Engineering and Physical Sciences at BYU. Smith Stevens at Harvard led in the development of psychoacoustics, the theory of hearing.
 

Engimo

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laska said:
*materialsm-[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]False Principle: Nothing exists which cannot be observed."[/FONT]
Explain why this is a false principle.
 

laska

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Just google Alan Ashton and mormon and there are several references, he was a professor at BYU. Here is an article that midway through it mentions Ashton as LDS. ttp://www.cit.cornell.edu/computer/history/Cowles.html
 
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laska

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EngimoQuote:
Originally Posted by laska
*materialsm-[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]False Principle: Nothing exists which cannot be observed."[/FONT]



Explain why this is a false principle-Engimo


Engimo, you are smart enough to figure this out.
 

Engimo

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laska said:
EngimoQuote:
Originally Posted by laska
*materialsm-[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]False Principle: Nothing exists which cannot be observed."[/FONT]



Explain why this is a false principle-Engimo


Engimo, you are smart enough to figure this out.
Thanks for the confidence, but I don't see how restricting our claims of knowledge to that which can be observed and tested is a false principle.
 

laska

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I'll try and do some research hopefully later tonight on the rest of Hu-210's post. I just got them off websites where it lists famous Mormons. On the comment that "maybe I should look harder" at seeing no contradictions between true science and true religion, maybe he could list some inconsistencies.
 

Axismaster

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laska said:
I'll try and do some research hopefully later tonight on the rest of Hu-210's post. I just got them off websites where it lists famous Mormons. On the comment that "maybe I should look harder" at seeing no contradictions between true science and true religion, maybe he could list some inconsistencies.
I will tell you that he was right that Nolan Bushnell alone did not invent video games, as it was about equal between him and Ralph Baer. G4 channel had something on and credited them as co-inventors.
 

laska

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In response to Hu-210, Iomega was formed by several ex-IBM employees most of whom were LDS. You can google Iomega and Mormon and find several sources.

the bottom article at this link http://www.adherents.com/largecom/fam_lds_inv.html#CD,explains mentions "how Ingebretsen and his mentor, University of Utah professor Thomas Stockham, invented technology that translated analog sound into a digital format -- a discovery that eventually led to the development of compact discs."
"It also mentions how they lost out by not patenting the technology-But Soundstream lost out to consumer electronics giants Sony and Philips in the race to produce CDs and players. Ingebretsen, Stockham and hardware engineer Bruce Rothaar never patented the digital audio editing technology they created, costing them untold millions."


Drew Major- here is one link:http://morgannews.us/computers.html. Google away if you need more.

Alvino Rey- "His interest in the workings of guitars led to several unique alterations. In 1927, Rey took the needle mechanism from his mother's Victrola and added it to his banjo, an adaptation that increased its volume. The Gibson Guitar Co. hired him in 1934 to conduct similar experiments with their instruments. Rey also modified a Hawaiian steel guitar by adding a pedal or two to get shifts in tuning. That variation led to the design of the modern, pedal steel guitar commonly used in country music circles."

I am not sure Alvino should be credited with the invention of the electric guitar here.

Anyway for the most part it seems to me the list is accurate although there should be a claimer that others also were involved. The main point is that highly educated individuals do believe in God as well as science.

On trying to find inconsistencies with true religion and science, all the scriptures teach is that God created the heavens and the earth. They do not tell us how, when, or how long the creation process took.





 
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laska

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Engimo said:
Thanks for the confidence, but I don't see how restricting our claims of knowledge to that which can be observed and tested is a false principle.

When I wrote about materialism in science, I was thinking about those who go beyond not accepting a principle as a proven truth becuase it cannot be tested to believing this means it cannot possibly be true. For example the atom existed even when we did not have the ability to test for it.

I believe science can only find out a finite amount of truth, a drop of water in a vast ocean. Revealed religion opens the floodgates that otherwise would be forever closed.
 

Engimo

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laska said:
When I wrote about materialism in science, I was thinking about those who go beyond not accepting a principle as a proven truth becuase it cannot be tested to believing this means it cannot possibly be true. For example the atom existed even when we did not have the ability to test for it.
Ahh, but no scientist holds to this view. Scientists hold to the view that there is no reason to believe in something that has not been observed - not that it definitively does not exist.

I believe science can only find out a finite amount of truth, a drop of water in a vast ocean. Revealed religion opens the floodgates that otherwise would be forever closed.
How can you consider religion finding "truth" if it cannot be tested? How can you be sure that it is not composed entirely of falsehoods if it is outside the realm of testability?
 

laska

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Engimo said:
Ahh, but no scientist holds to this view. Scientists hold to the view that there is no reason to believe in something that has not been observed - not that it definitively does not exist.

It is similar to the LDS view but the LDS scientists would probably say they see evidence, spiritual evidence, that some of these other scientists may not see or understand.
 

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laska said:
It is similar to the LDS view but the LDS scientists would probably say they see evidence, spiritual evidence, that some of these other scientists may not see or understand.
Evidence that is not reproducible is not evidence at all.
 

laska

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If you prayed and Christ visited you. Would this be evidence to you that He exists? How do you reproduce it for others? You would then know a truth that cannot be proven unless God decides to confirm your testimony to others by revealing to them it is true.
 

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laska said:
If you prayed and Christ visited you. Would this be evidence to you that He exists? How do you reproduce it for others? You would then know a truth that cannot be proven unless God decides to confirm your testimony to others by revealing to them it is true.
No, it would be evidence to me that I was hallucinating. If I'm seeing something that no one else can see, it stands to reason that there's something wrong with me and not everyone else.
 

laska

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Engimo said:
No, it would be evidence to me that I was hallucinating. If I'm seeing something that no one else can see, it stands to reason that there's something wrong with me and not everyone else.
You are alone when this happens:doh

Here is the testimony of Joseph Smith:http://scriptures.lds.org/js_h/1
 

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Civilization?

Ummm.... is Sid Miers a mormon?
 

Engimo

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laska said:
You are alone when this happens:doh

Here is the testimony of Joseph Smith:http://scriptures.lds.org/js_h/1
...There have been lots of people that have hallucinated in the past. Why is his subjective testimony any more valid than the guy on the street that thinks that he has superpowers?
 

laska

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The bottom line, I believe God must reveal truth to a person. The scriptures teach the proper methodology in finding all truth.
 

Engimo

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laska said:
The bottom line, I believe God must reveal truth to a person. The scriptures teach the proper methodology in finding all truth.
And the line beneath that one is that it is a poor methodology.
 

laska

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O.K. assuming Joseph really did have his vision, how could a person find out if it is true then?
 
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