The design purpose of guns

[RF667799]

Yes.

What if slaughterhouse workers enjoy what they are doing.

"What they are doing" being killing animals for your enjoyment.

 

[notquiteright]

Yeah.its not "wandering.:.
Versus baiting an animal in with a feeder.
Lol.

Nope.. I explained in detail why the .223 was marginal for deer. All those " time honored calibers" are better suited for deer than the .223.
It's simply physics.

You once again cherry picked the facts to 'prove' the 223 is marginal, course the same can be said of the 30/30. Once you get past 100 yards the 30/30 falls off badly, at 200 they both have the same energy but the 30/30 has twice the bullet drop. Simple physics doesn't explain how my 257 kills at 486 yards with a very low retained energy. Improvements in bullet design does. I have the antlers from that kill. Heavy 7 point (one brow tine broken) I made the shot back in Nov 2000. The near lung was pulped and poured out of the chest cavity, the 55-grain lead core up against the far side shoulder blade. More than brute force can be extremely lethal these days. Bullet design has made the bullet far more effective than the older soft point ones. FYI the only time I needed a follow-up was with soft points....
Now with the spear like 64 grain 223 ballistic tip it combines an 'explosive' nose cap with a core 'penetrator'.
You wander around until you find a deer you can get close enough to shoot. You denigrate the vast majority of shooters who own or lease the land they hunt on and develop the area with food plots and thinned wooded areas to promote browse. Get some firewood while at it. You roll your eyes at those who work for decades to promote deer numbers. I went from a 5-day season modern rifle with one buck to a 17-day season that allows a buck and up to 6 does. A holiday season of 14 days and 2 more does. That doesn't happen from a feeder or just wandering around....
Now back in the 1990's I used my old ground pounder patrol tactics to work the creek bottoms hunting for the invasive feral hogs ruining the wild turkey population. Careful heel toe and watching where I stepped, I got to within a few yards of outer ring of hogs escaping the Oklahoma sun in the shade. My weapon of choice was a long barrel AK clone. Fast, handy and quick on the point I would hit several, chase down the wounded pigs and finish them. I suppose you'd call it marginal, but I could make it work.
Perhaps the opinion of marginal calibers comes from an ignorance of modern improvements or a lack of confidence in marksmanship...

 

[Rich2018]

You once again cherry picked the facts to 'prove' the 223 is marginal

And he maintains that assault rifles are NOT designed to kill.

 

[jaeger19]

You once again cherry picked the facts to 'prove' the 223 is marginal, course the same can be said of the 30/30. Once you get past 100 yards the 30/30 falls off badly, at 200 they both have the same energy but the 30/30 has twice the bullet drop. Simple physics doesn't explain how my 257 kills at 486 yards with a very low retained energy. Improvements in bullet design does. I have the antlers from that kill. Heavy 7 point (one brow tine broken) I made the shot back in Nov 2000. The near lung was pulped and poured out of the chest cavity, the 55-grain lead core up against the far side shoulder blade. More than brute force can be extremely lethal these days. Bullet design has made the bullet far more effective than the older soft point ones. FYI the only time I needed a follow-up was with soft points....
Now with the spear like 64 grain 223 ballistic tip it combines an 'explosive' nose cap with a core 'penetrator'.
You wander around until you find a deer you can get close enough to shoot. You denigrate the vast majority of shooters who own or lease the land they hunt on and develop the area with food plots and thinned wooded areas to promote browse. Get some firewood while at it. You roll your eyes at those who work for decades to promote deer numbers. I went from a 5-day season modern rifle with one buck to a 17-day season that allows a buck and up to 6 does. A holiday season of 14 days and 2 more does. That doesn't happen from a feeder or just wandering around....
Now back in the 1990's I used my old ground pounder patrol tactics to work the creek bottoms hunting for the invasive feral hogs ruining the wild turkey population. Careful heel toe and watching where I stepped, I got to within a few yards of outer ring of hogs escaping the Oklahoma sun in the shade. My weapon of choice was a long barrel AK clone. Fast, handy and quick on the point I would hit several, chase down the wounded pigs and finish them. I suppose you'd call it marginal, but I could make it work.
Perhaps the opinion of marginal calibers comes from an ignorance of modern improvements or a lack of confidence in marksmanship...

1. Nope. Not cherry picking anything.
Look ..I get it you realize you are wrong and are trying to save face.

But the fact is.. there is not a list of less powerful cartridges than the .223 appropriate for deer. While there is a long long long list of more powerful cartridges that ARE appropriate for deer.
THAT by definition...means the .223 is marginal for deer.
You want to bring up the 30 30 ? Great..I showed that at 100 yards..the yardage YOU SAID ...was the most common yardage ?

The 30 30 has significantly more energy.
Which is why it's not marginal like the .223.

2. Physics does explain why ypur bullet killed. And what does bullet construction deal with...oh yeah..physics!.

Buy the truth is..at 500 yards you put that bullet into the deers shoulder
And at 500 yards I put the 168 gr Barnes from my 300 in the same place on a deer?
Your deer has a much greater chance of running of to not be recovered.

3. Yeah. " wander around" .?
Bwaaah.
Look. You denigrated any hunter that has to hunt till noon when there is wind because they don't have a feeder or food plot to hunt over.
Such a friggin set up that you put out range markers and wind indicators !!!
In fact you think every deer hunting scenario revolves around your set up of feeders and food plots.
Lmao.

4. Nah..the term marginal comes from cold hard facts about physics

Not romantic dreams of one's stalking prowess or marksmanship.

But objective facts.

 

[Rich2018]

1. Nope. Not cherry picking anything.

You say that "assault rifles are not designed to kill". And you cite the performance of the 5.56mm NATO round as "proof"
While blithely ignoring that the world's 1st assault rifle was the StG-44 was chambered in 7.92×33mm, while the world's most produced assault rifle, the AK-47/AKM, was chambered in 7.62 x 39mm

Second, the 5.56mm NATO round was absolutely designed to kill, however the terminal ballistics of the round, with the bullet "tumbling' if it hit soft tissue, ensured that a grievous wound was inflicted, should the shot prove not to be fatal

QED: you are quite wrong and just prove that you know about as much about guns as you know about medicine.

 

[jaeger19]

You say that "assault rifles are not designed to kill". And you cite the performance of the 5.56mm NATO round as "proof"
While blithely ignoring that the world's 1st assault rifle was the StG-44 was chambered in 7.92×33mm, while the world's most produced assault rifle, the AK-47/AKM, was chambered in 7.62 x 39mm

Second, the 5.56mm NATO round was absolutely designed to kill, however the terminal ballistics of the round, with the bullet "tumbling' if it hit soft tissue, ensured that a grievous wound was inflicted, should the shot prove not to be fatal

QED: you are quite wrong and just prove that you know about as much about guns as you know about medicine.

Nope. I pointed out the ar 15 was not designed to kill it was designed in the 5.56 caliber.
It was designed as a defensive weapon for infantrymen who were fighting an armed enemy.

Rich..you just keep proving you have no clue.

You can go make up whatever argument you want to argue with yourself.

Me? ..I am going to leave clinic today and take my " non portable shotgun"..and my Griff and search for some quail.

 

[RF667799]

You say that "assault rifles are not designed to kill". And you cite the performance of the 5.56mm NATO round as "proof"
While blithely ignoring that the world's 1st assault rifle was the StG-44 was chambered in 7.92×33mm, while the world's most produced assault rifle, the AK-47/AKM, was chambered in 7.62 x 39mm

What do the cartridges those other two guns are chambered for have to do with anything? Why shouldn't they be ignored if you are talking about the ballistic performance of the 5.56?

Second, the 5.56mm NATO round was absolutely designed to kill, however the terminal ballistics of the round, with the bullet "tumbling' if it hit soft tissue, ensured that a grievous wound was inflicted, should the shot prove not to be fatal

The Army is interested in the enemy being incapacitated so as to not engage in further hostilities. If they're dead, that meets the criteria. But it isn't necessary that they be dead.

QED: you are quite wrong and just prove that you know about as much about guns as you know about medicine.

You've never demonstrated having anything other than a Google deep understanding of guns. Chrissake...you'll try to argue that guns aren't portable.

 

[jaeger19]

What do the cartridges those other two guns are chambered for have to do with anything? Why shouldn't they be ignored if you are talking about the ballistic performance of the 5.56?


The Army is interested in the enemy being incapacitated so as to not engage in further hostilities. If they're dead, that meets the criteria. But it isn't necessary that they be dead.



You've never demonstrated having anything other than a Google deep understanding of guns. Chrissake...you'll try to argue that guns aren't portable.

Honestly I think you are giving to much credit for his Google knowledge.

 

[Rich2018]

Honestly I think you are giving to much credit for his Google knowledge.

Or your knowledge period

At least we've established the paucity of your knowledge of French and Spanish.

 

[jaeger19]

Or your knowledge period

At least we've established the paucity of your knowledge of French and Spanish.

mais au moins je sais que les fusils de chasse sont portables

 

[braindrain]

Yes.

So tell me do you enjoy eating a good steak.

 

[notquiteright]

1. Nope. Not cherry picking anything.
Look ..I get it you realize you are wrong and are trying to save face.

But the fact is.. there is not a list of less powerful cartridges than the .223 appropriate for deer. While there is a long long long list of more powerful cartridges that ARE appropriate for deer.
THAT by definition...means the .223 is marginal for deer.
You want to bring up the 30 30 ? Great..I showed that at 100 yards..the yardage YOU SAID ...was the most common yardage ?

The 30 30 has significantly more energy.
Which is why it's not marginal like the .223.

2. Physics does explain why ypur bullet killed. And what does bullet construction deal with...oh yeah..physics!.

Buy the truth is..at 500 yards you put that bullet into the deers shoulder
And at 500 yards I put the 168 gr Barnes from my 300 in the same place on a deer?
Your deer has a much greater chance of running of to not be recovered.

3. Yeah. " wander around" .?
Bwaaah.
Look. You denigrated any hunter that has to hunt till noon when there is wind because they don't have a feeder or food plot to hunt over.
Such a friggin set up that you put out range markers and wind indicators !!!
In fact you think every deer hunting scenario revolves around your set up of feeders and food plots.
Lmao.

4. Nah..the term marginal comes from cold hard facts about physics

Not romantic dreams of one's stalking prowess or marksmanship.

But objective facts.

Projection...
Face it you are clueless on what can and can't harvest deer. You think energy is all it takes. If so the 9mm and 45 pistol is useless for self-defense, look up their energy stats.
Again, you think the vast majority of us routinely shoot white tails at 500 yards. What is with your obsession with the shoulder??? At 486 yards I put the bullet within an inch of where I wanted it. The two deer I had to use more than one round into were much closer and back when I was using soft points with a 308.
I get those who don't own suitable land or invest in a hunting lease to improve the game habitat have to wander over the countryside. There are very few places in Oklahoma where you can spot a deer 880 yards away. (Most of us who have been Instructors, Competitors, and now hunters use yards not miles for distance) And there is enough terrain variation to approach much less the animal stays handy long enough for a successful hunt in broad daylight.
My former life as a grunt taught me about range cards, tell tales and cheat sheets for wind and my come ups so I dial and dump. I really don't need the tell tales to shoot but do record data in my logbook, until the holiday season when the now quite nervous does move quickly and at all times of the day. I have sat in my blind for hours waiting for a very quick engagement window on a very twitchy doe after Christmas.
The days do start with the lowest wind speeds- quite often still air until the sun warms the atmosphere. True the occasional front keeps the wind up, but the cooler seasonal temperatures hold down the wind gusts when the Hawk isn't out. Now in late July after 1 or so in the afternoon on a hillside trying to range and hit unknown distance targets can be complicated by large wind changes in speed and value but not in late November. The mirage is so thick early the targets seem to dance. I've shot when the air temp was 0 degrees, and the Canadian wind was strong from behind. I've shot when the air temp was 110 and the thermals screwed with wind speed and value.
I've used FMJ Lapuas, soft point GameKing, Barnes TSX, and Hornady ballistic tips.
I forgot the 30/30 dance you did. Fact is both the 30/30 and 223 are effective at 100 yards. I point out the 30/30 sheds energy and has twice the bullet drop as the 223 so the skill level must be higher. The 223 holds energy and a flatter trajectory than the 30/30. Of course, you drop your 500 yard in the shoulder BS when trying to avoid calling the 30/30 marginal....
I do have a broad base of experience and use as much of it as I can whenever I want one round and down....

 

[RF667799]

Projection...
Face it you are clueless on what can and can't harvest deer. You think energy is all it takes. If so the 9mm and 45 pistol is useless for self-defense, look up their energy stats.
Again, you think the vast majority of us routinely shoot white tails at 500 yards. What is with your obsession with the shoulder??? At 486 yards I put the bullet within an inch of where I wanted it. The two deer I had to use more than one round into were much closer and back when I was using soft points with a 308.
I get those who don't own suitable land or invest in a hunting lease to improve the game habitat have to wander over the countryside. There are very few places in Oklahoma where you can spot a deer 880 yards away. (Most of us who have been Instructors, Competitors, and now hunters use yards not miles for distance) And there is enough terrain variation to approach much less the animal stays handy long enough for a successful hunt in broad daylight.
My former life as a grunt taught me about range cards, tell tales and cheat sheets for wind and my come ups so I dial and dump. I really don't need the tell tales to shoot but do record data in my logbook, until the holiday season when the now quite nervous does move quickly and at all times of the day. I have sat in my blind for hours waiting for a very quick engagement window on a very twitchy doe after Christmas.
The days do start with the lowest wind speeds- quite often still air until the sun warms the atmosphere. True the occasional front keeps the wind up, but the cooler seasonal temperatures hold down the wind gusts when the Hawk isn't out. Now in late July after 1 or so in the afternoon on a hillside trying to range and hit unknown distance targets can be complicated by large wind changes in speed and value but not in late November. The mirage is so thick early the targets seem to dance. I've shot when the air temp was 0 degrees, and the Canadian wind was strong from behind. I've shot when the air temp was 110 and the thermals screwed with wind speed and value.
I've used FMJ Lapuas, soft point GameKing, Barnes TSX, and Hornady ballistic tips.
I forgot the 30/30 dance you did. Fact is both the 30/30 and 223 are effective at 100 yards. I point out the 30/30 sheds energy and has twice the bullet drop as the 223 so the skill level must be higher. The 223 holds energy and a flatter trajectory than the 30/30. Of course, you drop your 500 yard in the shoulder BS when trying to avoid calling the 30/30 marginal....
I do have a broad base of experience and use as much of it as I can whenever I want one round and down....

Is that what you're arguing? I didn't see the claim made that a .233 can't be used to kill a deer. A .22 rim fire can be used to kill a deer.

 

[notquiteright]

Is that what you're arguing? I didn't see the claim made that a .233 can't be used to kill a deer. A .22 rim fire can be used to kill a deer.

Oh it's the 'marginal' tag relying on simple energy to determine what can and can't kill. He obsesses on breaking a shoulder blade at 500 yards.

 

[RF667799]

Oh it's the 'marginal' tag relying on simple energy to determine what can and can't kill. He obsesses on breaking a shoulder blade at 500 yards.

But he didn't say it can't kill. That isn't what marginal means.

You appear to do a lot of deer hunting.

Do you use a .223 as your primary deer hunting rifle?

 

[notquiteright]

But he didn't say it can't kill. That isn't what marginal means.

You appear to do a lot of deer hunting.

Do you use a .223 as your primary deer hunting rifle?

I understand basic English. Have a High School diploma and everything...
He has danced around all of this. I do a lot of deer and feral hog hunting. I've taught and competed as well. Shot conditions most would never even be caught outside in.
I'm not a first-time youth hunter- the person I said would benefit from using the 223 very early on. If it was my first hunt with dad in the mesquite thickets or creek bottoms, If the range was within my skill set yes, I would. Most on my shots have been between 100 and 200 yards as I study the habits of the deer. My closest was 75 yards with a 308 and farthest was 486 with the 257.
The 223 with a fast twist and 'slick' bullet is very accurate- some use it in F-Class 1000-yard matches alongside my 308-competition rifle. Far less recoil and very good BCs.
One big reason I now use the 308 isn't its effectiveness on deer but rather how long I taught, and the school caliber was 308. Throw in how well it can push a FMJ through a feral hog and It's my go-to. Very tough hides, bone on a big old boar or sow. I try for either a head or shoulder shot- heavy bone, heavier than any white tail. I am working up another 6.5 Swede to be my deer rifle as for now professional trappers have greatly reduced the hog population. But when they multiply again, and they will, I'll probably start using my 8/06. As much as I like trying new calibers to gain more experience.
I'm in my late 60's and have done more than my fair share of sneaking up on people and critters. I own the land, have spent decades developing the habitat and am quite happy sitting in a blind waiting for the crack of dawn....

 

[RF667799]

I understand basic English. Have a High School diploma and everything...
He has danced around all of this. I do a lot of deer and feral hog hunting. I've taught and competed as well. Shot conditions most would never even be caught outside in.
I'm not a first-time youth hunter- the person I said would benefit from using the 223 very early on. If it was my first hunt with dad in the mesquite thickets or creek bottoms, If the range was within my skill set yes, I would. Most on my shots have been between 100 and 200 yards as I study the habits of the deer. My closest was 75 yards with a 308 and farthest was 486 with the 257.
The 223 with a fast twist and 'slick' bullet is very accurate- some use it in F-Class 1000-yard matches alongside my 308-competition rifle. Far less recoil and very good BCs.
One big reason I now use the 308 isn't its effectiveness on deer but rather how long I taught, and the school caliber was 308. Throw in how well it can push a FMJ through a feral hog and It's my go-to. Very tough hides, bone on a big old boar or sow. I try for either a head or shoulder shot- heavy bone, heavier than any white tail. I am working up another 6.5 Swede to be my deer rifle as for now professional trappers have greatly reduced the hog population. But when they multiply again, and they will, I'll probably start using my 8/06. As much as I like trying new calibers to gain more experience.
I'm in my late 60's and have done more than my fair share of sneaking up on people and critters. I own the land, have spent decades developing the habitat and am quite happy sitting in a blind waiting for the crack of dawn....

You don't use a .223 as your primary deer rifle, but would use one under limited circumstances.

I see nothing wrong with using a blind or tree stand for deer hunting. Around here, that's probably how most deer are taken. It's illegal here to hunt over bait though.

But I have the idea that blinds and stands don't work as well for areas where the deer aren't as concentrated and tend to range much farther and less predictably.

 

[jaeger19]

Projection...
Face it you are clueless on what can and can't harvest deer. You think energy is all it takes. If so the 9mm and 45 pistol is useless for self-defense, look up their energy stats.
Again, you think the vast majority of us routinely shoot white tails at 500 yards. What is with your obsession with the shoulder??? At 486 yards I put the bullet within an inch of where I wanted it. The two deer I had to use more than one round into were much closer and back when I was using soft points with a 308.
I get those who don't own suitable land or invest in a hunting lease to improve the game habitat have to wander over the countryside. There are very few places in Oklahoma where you can spot a deer 880 yards away. (Most of us who have been Instructors, Competitors, and now hunters use yards not miles for distance) And there is enough terrain variation to approach much less the animal stays handy long enough for a successful hunt in broad daylight.
My former life as a grunt taught me about range cards, tell tales and cheat sheets for wind and my come ups so I dial and dump. I really don't need the tell tales to shoot but do record data in my logbook, until the holiday season when the now quite nervous does move quickly and at all times of the day. I have sat in my blind for hours waiting for a very quick engagement window on a very twitchy doe after Christmas.
The days do start with the lowest wind speeds- quite often still air until the sun warms the atmosphere. True the occasional front keeps the wind up, but the cooler seasonal temperatures hold down the wind gusts when the Hawk isn't out. Now in late July after 1 or so in the afternoon on a hillside trying to range and hit unknown distance targets can be complicated by large wind changes in speed and value but not in late November. The mirage is so thick early the targets seem to dance. I've shot when the air temp was 0 degrees, and the Canadian wind was strong from behind. I've shot when the air temp was 110 and the thermals screwed with wind speed and value.
I've used FMJ Lapuas, soft point GameKing, Barnes TSX, and Hornady ballistic tips.
I forgot the 30/30 dance you did. Fact is both the 30/30 and 223 are effective at 100 yards. I point out the 30/30 sheds energy and has twice the bullet drop as the 223 so the skill level must be higher. The 223 holds energy and a flatter trajectory than the 30/30. Of course, you drop your 500 yard in the shoulder BS when trying to avoid calling the 30/30 marginal....
I do have a broad base of experience and use as much of it as I can whenever I want one round and down....

Folks around here have to look up the word " projection" because you and others use it often and incorrectly.
I've NEVER made any claims whatsoever that the 223 " won't kill a deer." A .22 lr will " kill a deer".
I've explained why the .223 is marginal for deer sized game.

Can you list a bunch of calibers less powerful than the .223 thst are appropriate for deer sized game? No you cannot.
Can you list a number of more powerful calibers that are appropriate for deer?.

Yes you can. Which means the .223 by definition is marginal for deer.
The 30 30..is one of those more powerful calibers out to 100 yards.

You are the one that brought up 500 tards bragging about yourself.
I simply used YOUR EXAMPLE to illustrate why energy DOES MATTER.

Your assumption that good deer hunters only kill deer at dawn with no wind with the deers nose in a feeder and range markers and wind markers placed is noted and and ridiculed .

Frankly your exploits don't impress me. You've done nothing more than the vast majority of the hunters in my area do or have done. And frankly a lot less than most.

I simply don't care.

 

[Rich2018]

So tell me do you enjoy eating a good steak.

No, I don't like beef much

I have an ongoing dispute with my wife, I think meat should be cut up into small pieces and then cooked, she thinks the opposite

I like curry, and you struggle to find beef curry.

 

[CLAX1911]

No, I don't like beef much

I have an ongoing dispute with my wife, I think meat should be cut up into small pieces and then cooked, she thinks the opposite

I like curry, and you struggle to find beef curry.

So that meat cut up into small pieces you know that came from an animal right and it was killed in a factory farm and that's better than them living in the wild?

 

[Rich2018]

So that meat cut up into small pieces you know that came from an animal right and it was killed in a factory farm and that's better than them living in the wild?

And the people involved in the supply of that meat do NOT do it for fun

I don't damn anyone for the killing of animals per se
I do damn them when they do it as a leisure pursuit for fun

And I doubly damn hem when they use their contemptible leisure pursuits, to justify owning guns.

 

[RF667799]

And the people involved in the supply of that meat do NOT do it for fun

Categorical claim implying universality is unlikely to be true.

Please explain how you are absolutely positive the guy who killed the chicken you enjoyed once it was dead, didn't enjoy inflicting that death as much as you enjoyed benefiting from it.

I don't damn anyone for the killing of animals per se
I do damn them when they do it as a leisure pursuit for fun

That is just you trying to excuse your commissioning of those deaths for your own pleasure (fun).

You don't even make an attempt to find out if someone enjoyed killing any of the animals you eat.

And I doubly damn hem when they use their contemptible leisure pursuits, to justify owning guns.

I believe you start your outrage from your position of there being no justification for owning guns.

 

[CLAX1911]

And the people involved in the supply of that meat do NOT do it for fun

Okay so it's not really about an animal dying it's about people having fun and you don't like that.

So you're at church lady you just admitted it. Fun and sinful and bad.

I don't damn anyone for the killing of animals per se
I do damn them when they do it as a leisure pursuit for fun

Because nobody should have fun everyone should be just as miserable As You Are.

That's extraordinarily personal and extraordinarily spiteful I suggest you work on yourself.

And I doubly damn hem when they use their contemptible leisure pursuits, to justify owning guns.

I don't need to use anything to justify owning guns I own them because I want to and I can. That's all the justification anybody needs.

I don't care if it's so they can take pictures of themselves without their shirt on holding a gun up in the mirror. That is a legitimate reason to own a gun.

 

[CLAX1911]

No, I don't like beef much

Well what if I told you both the cow and the person killing it were miserable when they did it would you like it then?

I have an ongoing dispute with my wife, I think meat should be cut up into small pieces and then cooked, she thinks the opposite

I like curry, and you struggle to find beef curry.

 

[Rich2018]

Okay so it's not really about an animal dying it's about people having fun and you don't like that.

Yes.

Fun and sinful and bad.

Nope, killing for fun is.

Because nobody should have fun everyone should be just as miserable As You Are.

People should have fun, but not by killing for it.