The Democratic Party Adopts $15/hour Minimum Wage into National Platform

[ludin]

...and you ignored a real life example of how that is working out, again. Cpwill was kind enough to copy/paste it for you on the previous page.

that is a constant with him in any of his arguments. you show him where he is wrong and that it doesn't work the way he thinks it does and he doesn't care.
the fact is college isn't free in Europe either.

it is only free if you can get into the public university. not everyone gets into the public university.
you have to pass and score high enough on the entrance exam. on top of that they only take a certain
amount of students.

if you don't score high enough your only options are private colleges.

 

[ludin]

Cool.

In that case, so will I (for some odd reason, it seems that you missed this the first time).



Why stop there?

Let's send everyone to Medical School. Then we can all be rich!

Huh. Looks like your solution didn't "take". :shrug:

Wanna go check to see what kind of quality the Germans are getting for "Free"?

See if you can find a German school on this international list of the Top 50 Colleges for Innovations that Get VC Backing (ie: succeeds in moving to the market).

....cause..... it looks like every single German college out there is currently getting beaten by Ohio State.



Well, perhaps they don't beat us at the very top end, but beat us in the broad middle. Maybe more Germans don't have the kind of really bleeding-edge quality that makes tech innovators, but more than make up for it by beating us with regular old bachelors degrees?

turns out 28% of those age 25-34 in Germany have Bachelors Degrees, while 43% of Americans that age do.

Gosh. That's odd. As price for something drops, demand usually rises. I wonder how come Germany doesn't have more people graduating from College?


Oh.

So.... it turns out that 'free for everyone' is really just "free for the elite". Who Knew? ;-)

he has been told this about 10k times. he ignores it every time because he just doesn't get it or it doesn't align with his preconceived notions or something.
it is like that all over Europe.

I was there for 2 months. Belgium, Poland all work the same way.
unless you make the score you don't get in for free.

even if you get in for free they expect you to study and pass. you don't get a semester to goof off. if you fail you are out.
they are serious about it.

they only take so many students as well.
if you don't make the cut then you have to pay for college.

basically only the best of the best get into college for free and everyone else is left to figure it out.

while here everyone has to pay for it but everyone has the chance to go to college.

 

[radcen]

he has been told this about 10k times. he ignores it every time because he just doesn't get it or it doesn't align with his preconceived notions or something.
it is like that all over Europe.

I was there for 2 months. Belgium, Poland all work the same way.
unless you make the score you don't get in for free.

even if you get in for free they expect you to study and pass. you don't get a semester to goof off. if you fail you are out.
they are serious about it.

they only take so many students as well.
if you don't make the cut then you have to pay for college.

basically only the best of the best get into college for free and everyone else is left to figure it out.

while here everyone has to pay for it but everyone has the chance to go to college.

Which, to be honest, sounds like it has some merit (especially the seriousness part), but... it's still dishonest to say "in Europe college is free" implying it's free for everyone.

 

[zimmer]

Thoughts?

The Democratic Party Adopts $15/hour Minimum Wage into National Platform

The Democratic Party on Friday adopted a call to raise the minimum wage to $15/hr as part of their established party platform heading into the 2016 election season. The move further polarizes the progressive wing of the party by moving them further to the left of both the Republican Party, and corporate centrist Democrats such as Hillary Clinton. In response to the Democratic Party’s vote, Terrence Wise, a Kansas City, Mo. McDonald’s and Burger King Worker and member of the National Organizing Committee of the Fight for $15, issued the following statement.

“The Democratic Party’s move shows a growing understanding that $15 an hour is what American workers everywhere need to survive and support their families. When fast-food workers first went on strike three years ago in New York City, most people gave them no shot to win. But the movement caught on in every corner of the country and big wage increases are now spreading from coast to coast. By joining together, speaking out and going on strike, we’re changing the politics of the country. And we’re going to keep on fighting until every underpaid worker in this country wins $15 and a union.”

If this is so, every responsible newspaper should be running headlines along the lines of:

Democrats Illustrate Economic Illiteracy

Political Suicide Pill for Democrat Party

Democrat Party Under Suspicion of Drug Abuse

Lenin Would Have Been Proud of Democrat Party

Insanity! Democrats Propose $15 Minimum Wage!!!​

 

[Helix]

...and you ignored a real life example of how that is working out, again. Cpwill was kind enough to copy/paste it for you on the previous page.

he and i have already been through it in fifty threads, as well.

kids who complete higher education are still better able to support themselves and don't need as much public assistance. enjoy arguing against that fact and paying entitlements instead, though.

 

[Helix]

it isn't free. it costs somebody something.
not to mention that in Europe the so called free college's aren't free either.

you have to score high enough on the entrance exam to even get into the college. they only take so many students. so if you don't score high enough
then you don't get it free. you still have to pay for it.

i didn't say it was "free." i said that the paywall has been removed.

so again you really don't know what you are talking about.

false.

 

[Helix]

...and you ignored a real life example of how that is working out, again.

and another graph, just for you.

 

[ludin]

i didn't say it was "free." i said that the paywall has been removed.



false.

removing the paywall means free. semantics argument isn't an argument.
you also fail to address the fact that it is free for everyone just those that make the cut.
even then they can be kicked out for non-performance.

of course it isn't free someone pays for it.
of course there isn't a pay wall to begin with.

so if they don't make the cut they still have to pay for it.
so yes you don't know what you are talking about and making stuff up.

at least 4 or 5 people including me have shown you how you are wrong and you refuse to admit that you are.

 

[ludin]

and another graph, just for you.

View attachment 67189419

which doesn't prove anything you said. we all know that having a college degree earns you more money.
however the fact is that many people don't go onto college to earn that degree.

in spite of having access to grants, and loans.
the lowest 3 tiers would have to pay for school anyway because it is doubtful they would make a high score to qualify for a public university.

 

[Helix]

removing the paywall means free. semantics argument isn't an argument.
you also fail to address the fact that it is free for everyone just those that make the cut.
even then they can be kicked out for non-performance.

we've discussed this already, or did you forget? i support debt free access to college with completion of the degree as a condition.

of course it isn't free someone pays for it.
of course there isn't a pay wall to begin with.

so if they don't make the cut they still have to pay for it.
so yes you don't know what you are talking about and making stuff up.

at least 4 or 5 people including me have shown you how you are wrong and you refuse to admit that you are.

i understand that it will cost money, and i never claimed that it would be "free." long term entitlements also cost a lot of money, and so does losing out to other countries that focus on developing their intellectual resources.

 

[Helix]

which doesn't prove anything you said. we all know that having a college degree earns you more money.
however the fact is that many people don't go onto college to earn that degree.

in spite of having access to grants, and loans.
the lowest 3 tiers would have to pay for school anyway because it is doubtful they would make a high score to qualify for a public university.

at some point, you just have to ignore people who fight any and every good idea, and work to enact better policy anyway. there will always be a "we can't do it" crowd, yet, we keep progressing, albeit more slowly than we should. you don't like the idea of removing the paywall that discourages a percentage of students from going on to higher education. fine. i support the idea, and think it would be beneficial to the country. the fact remains that a program like that is a good enough idea that other first world countries are starting to embrace it. i suspect we will someday as well, even if it pisses people off on a message board somewhere.

and the point of the thread, which has gotten lost in repeating the debate that we've already had fifteen hundred times now, is that sending the kids to college is a MUCH better idea than raising the minimum wage to fifteen bucks. debt free access to post secondary education / job training will mean that there will be a lot fewer people trying to make a living at an entry level job. that should be the goal.

 

[ludin]

we've discussed this already, or did you forget? i support debt free access to college with completion of the degree as a condition.



i understand that it will cost money, and i never claimed that it would be "free." long term entitlements also cost a lot of money, and so does losing out to other countries that focus on developing their intellectual resources.

please address what I said.

it won't be free. so you are wrong.
not everyone will make it in because they won't score high enough on the exam to make it. so you are wrong (this is how Europe works).
those public colleges only take so many people. so you are wrong again
people will have to pay for another college if they can't get into the public system. again you are wrong.

so please tell me anywhere you have been right?

no other countries only develop the best and the brightest. again you don't know what you are talking about.
here in American anyone can attend college. over there not so much.

also there is no switching majors half way through. you pick a field and that is it. that is what you study.
if you decide to change it you have to pay for it.

again you lack the knowledge of how the system works but keep parroting it anyway.

 

[ludin]

at some point, you just have to ignore people who fight any and every good idea, and work to enact better policy anyway. there will always be a "we can't do it" crowd, yet, we keep progressing, albeit more slowly than we should. you don't like the idea of removing the paywall that discourages a percentage of students from going on to higher education. fine. i support the idea, and think it would be beneficial to the country. the fact remains that a program like that is a good enough idea that other first world countries are starting to embrace it. i suspect we will someday as well, even if it pisses people off on a message board somewhere.

at some point if it isn't a good idea then it isn't a good idea and people need to wake up to that fact.
you have already been shown why it isn't a good idea and you lack the concept.

I am sure you support the idea. you constantly support anything you don't have to pay for.

and the point of the thread, which has gotten lost in repeating the debate that we've already had fifteen hundred times now, is that sending the kids to college is a MUCH better idea than raising the minimum wage to fifteen bucks. debt free access to post secondary education / job training will mean that there will be a lot fewer people trying to make a living at an entry level job. that should be the goal.

I already told you. you want to send kids to college start a scholarship fund.
you refuse.

you refuse to acknowledge that it isn't free. you refuse to acknowledge that European colleges have entrance exams that if you don't make it then you have to pay for it anyway.
you refuse to acknowledge anything anyone has said to you as to why you wrong.

no where are they embracing it.

 

[Helix]

please address what I said.

it won't be free. so you are wrong.

i didn't say that it would be free. i will be paring that strawman out of your quotes from here on out, because you are wasting my time.

not everyone will make it in because they won't score high enough on the exam to make it. so you are wrong (this is how Europe works).
those public colleges only take so many people. so you are wrong again
people will have to pay for another college if they can't get into the public system. again you are wrong.

you can keep repeating "you are wrong" all day. it doesn't change the fact that the nation will be a lot better off if we do everything we can to remove financial barriers to continuing education.

so please tell me anywhere you have been right?

see above, and the whole thread.

no other countries only develop the best and the brightest. again you don't know what you are talking about.
here in American anyone can attend college. over there not so much.

i'm not sure which America that you live in. in this dimension, the debt barrier is a disincentive.

also there is no switching majors half way through. you pick a field and that is it. that is what you study.
if you decide to change it you have to pay for it.

again you lack the knowledge of how the system works but keep parroting it anyway.

thanks for sharing your opinion.

 

[ludin]

i didn't say that it would be free. i will be paring that strawman out of your quotes from here on out, because you are wasting my time.

you pay wall will be removed.

that is IE it will be free. you are wrong it isn't free. there is no strawman.

you can keep repeating "you are wrong" all day. it doesn't change the fact that the nation will be a lot better off if we do everything we can to remove financial barriers to continuing education.

red herring does address anything that I said.

see above, and the whole thread.

you opinion has been proven wrong. so you haven't been right at all so far.

i'm not sure which America that you live in. in this dimension, the debt barrier is a disincentive.

I live in the America where anyone can attend college no matter what.

thanks for sharing your opinion.

nope it is called facts.

 

[Helix]

at some point if it isn't a good idea then it isn't a good idea and people need to wake up to that fact.
you have already been shown why it isn't a good idea and you lack the concept.

I am sure you support the idea. you constantly support anything you don't have to pay for.

false.

you refuse to acknowledge that European colleges have entrance exams that if you don't make it then you have to pay for it anyway.
you refuse to acknowledge anything anyone has said to you as to why you wrong.

so now it's impossible to prepare students for an entrance exam? well, i guess that there's something else Europe can do that we can't. in your opinion, of course.

no where are they embracing it.

here's what Germany did :

World-class education that costs nothing - CNN.com

 

[solletica]

Thoughts?

The Democratic Party Adopts $15/hour Minimum Wage into National Platform

The Democratic Party on Friday adopted a call to raise the minimum wage to $15/hr as part of their established party platform heading into the 2016 election season. The move further polarizes the progressive wing of the party by moving them further to the left of both the Republican Party, and corporate centrist Democrats such as Hillary Clinton. In response to the Democratic Party’s vote, Terrence Wise, a Kansas City, Mo. McDonald’s and Burger King Worker and member of the National Organizing Committee of the Fight for $15, issued the following statement.

“The Democratic Party’s move shows a growing understanding that $15 an hour is what American workers everywhere need to survive and support their families. When fast-food workers first went on strike three years ago in New York City, most people gave them no shot to win. But the movement caught on in every corner of the country and big wage increases are now spreading from coast to coast. By joining together, speaking out and going on strike, we’re changing the politics of the country. And we’re going to keep on fighting until every underpaid worker in this country wins $15 and a union.”

All min wage laws can easily be circumvented by placing a glass jar in front of the workers.

 

[Helix]

you opinion has been proven wrong. so you haven't been right at all so far.

false.

I live in the America where anyone can attend college no matter what.

ah, so i guess that the crushing debt problem is just a collective hallucination.

lol.

nope it is called facts.

those "facts" and the stuff i flush down my toilet bear a striking resemblance.

 

[cpwill]

he has been told this about 10k times. he ignores it every time because he just doesn't get it or it doesn't align with his preconceived notions or something.
it is like that all over Europe.

I was there for 2 months. Belgium, Poland all work the same way.
unless you make the score you don't get in for free.

even if you get in for free they expect you to study and pass. you don't get a semester to goof off. if you fail you are out.
they are serious about it.

they only take so many students as well.
if you don't make the cut then you have to pay for college.

basically only the best of the best get into college for free and everyone else is left to figure it out.

while here everyone has to pay for it but everyone has the chance to go to college.

I think, basically, he is angry that he is having to deal with paying back the student loans he signed up for, and wants a policy that deals with that. Specifics or actual results bedamned, sort of thing.

 

[cpwill]

he and i have already been through it in fifty threads, as well.

kids who complete higher education are still better able to support themselves and don't need as much public assistance. enjoy arguing against that fact and paying entitlements instead, though.

Your causal relationship is misguided. The kinds of kids who are most likely to stay in school and succeed are also the most likely not to need public assistance. Even under a paying model only about half of the people we are sending to college are graduating, meaning that if we try to send more, all we are going to do is expend a lot of resources not actually giving anyone else marketable degrees.

Furthermore, the we don't need more middle managers with a degree in humanities. We need more mechanics, electricians, plumbers, IT workers, and the like. Given that income is tied to your job rather than your degree, giving someone an $80,000 degree and then sending him off to be an auto mechanic is just a waste of four years of his earning potential and $80,000.


Anywho, I'll just keep waiting for you to respond to my wrecking of your argument above. But we both know you won't. You'll block-quote and then try a non-sequitor.

 

[cpwill]

ah, so i guess that the crushing debt problem is just a collective hallucination.

Yup - people are stupid, and our parents are stupid, and stupidly encouraged us (broadly) to take on a stupid amount of debt to (mostly) get stupid educations that a lot of us didn't need and a lot of us therefore didn't finish.

But you don't need debt to go to college - you need a plan, and you need to be willing to work on it. That's where a lot of our generation has failed. My parents paid for about a years worth of undergraduate college (3 Semesters). Yet, despite that, and despite not being wealthy.... I am close to finishing a second masters degree.... and will probably be able to knock out a third (if I want to). All without a penny of debt.

In the meantime, those who are suffering under a crushing load of debt have my sympathy.... until they try to blame anyone else for that fact. Nobody made you request those loans, and nobody made you sign the papers. You claimed to be a grown-up, capable of making grown-up decisions, and so you made the grown-up decision to take out a small mortgage on yourself. The consequences are yours.

those "facts" and the stuff i flush down my toilet bear a striking resemblance.

Huh. How about these facts:

Huh. Looks like your solution didn't "take". :shrug:



Wanna go check to see what kind of quality the Germans are getting for "Free"?

See if you can find a German school on this international list of the Top 50 Colleges for Innovations that Get VC Backing (ie: succeeds in moving to the market).

....cause..... it looks like every single German college out there is currently getting beaten by Ohio State.



Well, perhaps they don't beat us at the very top end, but beat us in the broad middle. Maybe more Germans don't have the kind of really bleeding-edge quality that makes tech innovators, but more than make up for it by beating us with regular old bachelors degrees?

NOPE.

turns out 28% of those age 25-34 in Germany have Bachelors Degrees, while 43% of Americans that age do.

Gosh. That's odd. As price for something drops, demand usually rises. I wonder how come Germany doesn't have more people graduating from College?


Oh.

They simply do not allow kids to apply.

...German secondary education includes five types of school. The Gymnasium is designed to prepare pupils' education and finishes with the final examination Abitur, after grade 12, mostly year 13. The Realschule has a broader range of emphasis for intermediate pupils and finishes with the final examination Mittlere Reife, after grade 10; the Hauptschule prepares pupils for vocational education and finishes with the final examination Hauptschulabschluss, after grade 9 and the Realschulabschluss after grade 10.....

In order to enter university, students are, as a rule, required to have passed the Abitur examination; since 2009, however, those with a Meisterbrief (master craftsman's diploma) have also been able to apply.[5][6] Those wishing to attend a "university of applied sciences" must, as a rule, have Abitur, Fachhochschulreife, or a Meisterbrief. Lacking those qualifications, pupils are eligible to enter a university or university of applied sciences if they can present additional proof that they will be able to keep up with their fellow students through a Begabtenprüfung or Hochbegabtenstudium (which is a test confirming excellence and above average intellectual ability).

Looks Like Only About 28% of Little German Boys And Girls Get To Go To Gymnasium, and an additional 15% get to go to Realschule.


So.... it turns out that 'free for everyone' is really just "free for the elite". Who Knew. :roll:​

Cause... we're still waiting on you to get around to those.

 

[ludin]

I think, basically, he is angry that he is having to deal with paying back the student loans he signed up for, and wants a policy that deals with that. Specifics or actual results bedamned, sort of thing.

actually he doesn't want to pay for anything.
he doesn't want to pay for his healthcare
he doesn't want to have to pay for college

I am surprised he thinks he has to pay for his other bills as well.
everything he comments on is that life should be free.

the fact is though the system doesn't work the way that it should work.

 

[Helix]

actually he doesn't want to pay for anything.
he doesn't want to pay for his healthcare
he doesn't want to have to pay for college

I am surprised he thinks he has to pay for his other bills as well.
everything he comments on is that life should be free.

the fact is though the system doesn't work the way that it should work.

one more strawman, and i'm done responding to you, as well.

 

[cpwill]

one more strawman, and i'm done responding to you, as well.

:shrug: as a result of Germany's structure, fewer Germans get degrees. Yet you are claiming by adopting their structure, more Americans will get degrees.

As a result of Germany's structure, the wide majority of their children are locked out of college. Yet you are claiming adopting their model would open up college to more people.

As a result of Germany's system, their innovative capability is reduced. Yet you claim that adopting their model would make us.more innovative.


The evidence all suggests that our collegiate system is superior to the model you would have us adopt. The only thing left that remains accurate is that it would shift the cost from students to workers.

Sent from my XT557 using Tapatalk 2

 

[dpcal]

at some point, you just have to ignore people who fight any and every good idea, and work to enact better policy anyway. there will always be a "we can't do it" crowd, yet, we keep progressing, albeit more slowly than we should. you don't like the idea of removing the paywall that discourages a percentage of students from going on to higher education. fine. i support the idea, and think it would be beneficial to the country. the fact remains that a program like that is a good enough idea that other first world countries are starting to embrace it. i suspect we will someday as well, even if it pisses people off on a message board somewhere.

and the point of the thread, which has gotten lost in repeating the debate that we've already had fifteen hundred times now, is that sending the kids to college is a MUCH better idea than raising the minimum wage to fifteen bucks. debt free access to post secondary education / job training will mean that there will be a lot fewer people trying to make a living at an entry level job. that should be the goal.

The question is whether it is good policy. I believe you would find broad, but not universal, support for free tuition for those in the STEM disciplines as we are needing to import those people today. I believe you would also find broad support for other disciplines where this country faces a shortage that hampers our competitiveness or productivity... for example, technical schools... machinists, welders, etc. However, it makes no sense to incentivize more students to pursue courses of study where we already have a glut. If there are no jobs in their fields, they will still be trying to make a living at entry level jobs. The point is, I agree with a significant part of what you are saying... I just can't wrap my head around the logic of paying for degrees where there is no demand.