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The New York Times writes, as fact rather than as editorial:New York Times said:Her death was a poignant illustration of the cost of Israel’s use of battlefield weapons to control the protests, a policy that has taken the lives of nearly 200 Palestinians.It also shows how each side is locked into a seemingly unending and insolvable cycle of violence. The Palestinians trying to tear down the fence are risking their lives to make a point, knowing that the protests amount to little more than a public relations stunt for Hamas, the militant movement that rules Gaza. And Israel, the far stronger party, continues to focus on containment rather than finding a solution.
Hamas is using civilians as an essential part of the "war effort." And the Times wishes Israel to focus on "finding a solution."New York Times said:A senior Israeli commander told The Times in August that 60 to 70 other Gaza protesters had been killed unintentionally, around half the total killed at that point.
Yet the Israeli army’s rules of engagement remain unchanged, the military says.
That alone may constitute a separate violation of international humanitarian law, experts say: After enough civilians have died, commanders have a duty to make changes to ensure that they aren’t needlessly targeted.
“You lose the right to say, ‘Oops,’” said Noam Lubell, a professor of the law of armed conflict at the University of Essex.
The large number of accidental killings, and Israel’s failure to adjust the rules of engagement in response, raise the question of whether they were a bug or a feature of its policy.
Sorry, I don't agree with moral equivalence here. The medic was traipsing around a war zone. She was shot. The fact that one side doesn't consider the demarcation to be a border does not mean they can feed civilians into the line of fire.On 1 June 2018, Palestinian medic Rouzan al-Najjar was killed by an Israeli sniper while on the Gaza side of the border. I remember this incident well, and was both surprised and downhearted that a trained soldier would use lethal force against a Gaza female clearly wearing a white medical garment with a florescent band. The New York Times has investigated the harrowing incident and composed the video below accompanied by a written article which is also provided below. The NYT analyzed over 1,000 photos and videos, froze the fatal moment in a 3-D model of the protest, and interviewed more than 30 witnesses and I.D.F. commanders to reveal how Ms. Rouzan was killed.
No one can change what happened on that June day. Rather than cast aspersions on either side which would be unhelpful, I would prefer that everyone consider this tragedy a teaching moment with multiple lessons to be learned.
Related: A Day, a Life: When a Medic Was Killed in Gaza, Was It an Accident? | The New York Times
Sorry, I don't agree with moral equivalence here. The medic was traipsing around a war zone. She was shot. The fact that one side doesn't consider the demarcation to be a border does not mean they can feed civilians into the line of fire.
Sorry, I don't agree with moral equivalence here.
The medic was traipsing around a war zone.
She was shot.
The fact that one side doesn't consider the demarcation to be a border does not mean they can feed civilians into the line of fire.
As far as how the "Palestinians" lost the West Bank remember, they started the war. Also how can anyone, with a straight face, compare the Arab leadership to Israel's leadership?I somehow don't think you will apply the same standard to a whole host of Israeli leaderships/political parties , past and present , that have placed and continue to place their own civilians in the West Bank , in areas past the internationally recognized borders there with a view of using them to annexe the territory.
Trying to dress your views up as something approaching even handedness seems to have failed imo
A Day, a Life: When a Medic Was Killed in Gaza, Was It an Accident?
Rouzan al-Najaar, a 20 year old self-educated "medic" as described by the New York Times, was killed during June 2018 by an Israeli soldier's bullet. That is about all anyone can agree on. Hamas had commenced so-called "protests" which I consider to have been an attempt to wash away the Gaza-Israel border by force. Israel, predictably, responded with force as it considers its border to be a legitimate demarcation of national sovereignty. The above-linked NY Times article (link) states that "technically, it (the border marked by a fence) was not even a recognized border, only the armistice line drawn in 1949, after the Israeli-Arab war." The Israeli army had "warned that anyone coming close to the (border) fence would be shot." The implication of the article, of course, is that Israel should not be there.
The article states that:The New York Times writes, as fact rather than as editorial:Hamas is using civilians as an essential part of the "war effort." And the Times wishes Israel to focus on "finding a solution."
Unless someone else has any other ideas, the only such "solution" is to evacuate Jews from Israel. One dovish Israeli musician said as much to me when I asked what Israel's recourse was if the Arabs would not agree to any borders at all for a State of Israel. He said "wouldn't raising children there be child abuse"?
I believe that Israel has every right to exist as a Jewish state, and fight aggressively in that pursuit.
As far as how the "Palestinians" lost the West Bank remember, they started the war. Also how can anyone, with a straight face, compare the Arab leadership to Israel's leadership?
The Arabs are a very real people. I do not ask for a separate state for Polish Jews, German Jews, French Jews, etc. Jews are Jews. There is not much difference between a Jordanian Arab and a "Palestinian." Just because they have multiple tribal leaders who sort out their differences be violence doesn't entitle each such leader to a state, a seat in the U.N. etc.It's amazing how much it is possible to pick up from so few words sometimes
From the few above it becomes obvious that you think the Palestinians are not a real people , unlike the Jews who are , no doubt
What alternative version of history are you promoting?That you don't know the history surrounding the Six Day War or possibly even the players involved. Some of the Jewish leaders of the time have been a whole lot more honest about this very subject ( to their credit ) than many that cheer lead for Israel today from a position of historical ignorance or self denial , or both.
I am Jewish and proud of it.When you say it is ridiculous to compare " the Arab leadership to Israel's leadership " I think you might really mean Arab to Jew because if you try to apply the same standards to both sides there's ugliness on both ( and on everyone else btw ) . My guess is that you hold an already entrenched position which wants/has to assign blame to one side only, so there's no real chance of you even considering opening up and trying for a little bit of parity/context/evenhandedness in dealing with the subject and the events , both historically and contemporary .
I call it a battlefield death, not a murder. If her colleagues weren't using flaming kits and gasoline-filled balloons this tragedy would not have happened.It's a pity you couldn't actually find it in your heart to bring yourself to comment more on the circumstances surrounding Rouzan al-Najjar's murder , other than to infer she thoroughly deserved it . That's what your previous post came across as and it's pretty ugly tbh . Just my opinion though
It is certainly never murder when there was no intent to kill.
If I fire into a crowd, this does indeed constitute an intent to kill and maim which would be regarded as "reckless homicide" at a minimum.
Reverse the incident. What if a Palestinian randomly fired into a crowd of Israelis and killed a person? This is no crime?
You can't have selective prosecution and maintain the rule of law. The law is either blind, or it becomes farcical.
It is certainly never murder when there was no intent to kill.
Hamas bringing civilians to the fence or elsewhere including little kids in the hope that they will get killed is on the other hand actual murder in the cases where they do get killed, there is an intention.
The Arabs are a very real people. I do not ask for a separate state for Polish Jews, German Jews, French Jews, etc. Jews are Jews. There is not much difference between a Jordanian Arab and a "Palestinian." Just because they have multiple tribal leaders who sort out their differences be violence doesn't entitle each such leader to a state, a seat in the U.N. etc.
What alternative version of history are you promoting?
I am Jewish and proud of it.
I call it a battlefield death, not a murder. If her colleagues weren't using flaming kits and gasoline-filled balloons this tragedy would not have happened.
Apocalypse:
Ah, so the people being shot from hundreds of meters away while trying to aid the fallen are the murders or accessories to murder while the people aiming and shooting the firearms and doing the actual killing are the innocents with no control over the situation. Yup, that explains everything very clearly, thank you.
Evilroddy.
I said Hamas are responsible for murder, if you want to claim these people who were "trying to aid the fallen" are Hamas this is fine but that has nothing to do with what I said.
If there is an intent to cause the death of a person, it is murder. Hamas wants the civilians to die, that's why Hamas gets them there and why it places its rockets in schools and why it does all the things it does, so when they do die, Hamas is responsible for murders.
Apocalypse:
Intent without act is not murder. There must be both intent and act for a person to be guilty of murder. Hamas is guilty of the murders and killings it has committed, to be sure, but it is not guilty of the killings done to March of Return participants, by-standers, press personnel and medical personnel. Those deaths are on the hands of the Israeli state because agents of the Israeli state did the killing and the state has vicarious responsibility for those killings. If Québécois and Québécoise came out in droves to support Quebec separation from Canada and Camadian authorities ordered the shooting of those protesters, those deaths and woundings would be the responsibility of the Canadian Government and not the separatist groups who staged the protest. Palestinians are human beings with basic human rights. They are not vermin to be killed because that's the easiest and most cost efficient method of suppressing their protest.
Evilroddy.
Hamas works towards getting them killed and as such is responsible for murder. There is both intent and actions taken towards that goal.
Placing rockets in schools and paying civilians to get to the fence of a bordering country they are at war with, whose citizens they regularly try to murder, is an action towards getting them killed.
Not recognizing that is the same as believing that these people are vermin to be killed because that's the easiest way to promote propagnada against the ones who defend their country and its citizens from the violent invaders.
Again, Hamas are responsible for acts of murder and not just of Jews.
The killing of a harmless nurse by Israeli snipers, who wilfully targeted and shot her while she was trying to help the fallen in Gaza, is the fault of Hamas and Hamas only. Israeli military personnel bear no guilt, no matter what they do or who they harm. Evilroddy.
Got it. The shooters are the innocents and the targets are the guilty.
Hamas is evil and Israeli soldiers who are defending the land of the chosen people can therefore do no wrong in comparison to Hamas.
The shooting by Israeli snipers of individuals who happen to get killed or maimed in situations where Hamas is connected is legit because Hamas is the ultimate evil and its participation trumps any responsibility that Israeli leaders, IDF officers, spotters and snipers have for killing non-Hamas people or Hamas affiliated people who are doing no direct harm to Israel but rather are trying to help others who have been shot by Israelis (who can do no wrong) is a solid argument. Those who are amidst the protesters and try to document what is going on are legitimate targets too as they are helping to promote the goals of Hamas and therefore deserve the extrajudicial killing or maiming which they get from Israeli snipers for challenging the Israeli narrative of what is going on.
Your position is very clear and is also very disturbing in my opinion.
The killing of a harmless nurse by Israeli snipers, who wilfully targeted and shot her
This reminds me of a civilian nurse that was shot dead on the Maidan Nezalezhnosti (Independence Square / Kyiv, Ukraine) by the Berkut (Riot Police) in February 2014. As she was helping a wounded protester bleeding-out on a cold sidewalk, she was shot in the head by a Berkut sniper. The Maidan massacre was ordered by president Viktor Yanukovych, who was instructed to get vicious by Vladimir Putin. Over the course of 24 hours, over 100 unarmed people on Maidan would be shot. Yanukovych would subsequently flee to Russia.
I believe Bashar Assad would blame the victims, as would Omar al-Bashir of Sudan and other notable psychopaths. But blaming the victims while absolving the trigger pullers is usually not found in modern Western societies.
That you are incapable of understanding a situation as evident by your previous post means that pehraps you shouldn't be so eager to pass judgement about it.
The NYT video explains what happened via open source information (following the modality of Bellingcat). I thoroughly understand who shot whom.
If you wish to pretend the sniper here is squeaky clean, then that's your choice. At a minimum, the killing of Rouzan al-Najjar is manslaughter or negligent homicide.
Who are you referring to with "the targets" though?
Who was targeted here?.
Hamas are the evil terrorists, yes, this is a fact of reality.
Your "chosen people" insertion is your own. Hinting as always at the racism driving your positions.
Hamas are responsible for bringing civilians there and for the violent actions taken against Israel. For the throwing of firebombs and for the attempts to breach the fence and for the several acts of invasions that happened so far. It attempts to get civilians killed, it intends to get civilians killed, it is thus responsible for murder in cases where they die.
I'm very glad you find the opposition to terrorists and to the murders they commit of both Palestinians and Israelis to be disturbing.
If it wouldn't disturb you it wouldn't be moral.
You're just lying and that's quite pathetic.
If you truly care about innocents dying don't use their deaths to advance your immoral world views, don't lie she was targeted when she wasn't just because you feel like it advances your opposition to the act of Jews defending their lives, that's just manipulating people's deaths for propagnada which is exactly what Hamas does and why it brings civilians to such places or hides rockets in schools.
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