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The death of Rouzan al-Najjar

Rogue Valley

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On 1 June 2018, Palestinian medic Rouzan al-Najjar was killed by an Israeli sniper while on the Gaza side of the border. I remember this incident well, and was both surprised and downhearted that a trained soldier would use lethal force against a Gaza female clearly wearing a white medical garment with a florescent band. The New York Times has investigated the harrowing incident and composed the video below accompanied by a written article which is also provided below. The NYT analyzed over 1,000 photos and videos, froze the fatal moment in a 3-D model of the protest, and interviewed more than 30 witnesses and I.D.F. commanders to reveal how Ms. Rouzan was killed.

No one can change what happened on that June day. Rather than cast aspersions on either side which would be unhelpful, I would prefer that everyone consider this tragedy a teaching moment with multiple lessons to be learned.

[video=youtube;w0inm3oS71c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?w0inm3oS71c[/video]


Related: A Day, a Life: When a Medic Was Killed in Gaza, Was It an Accident? | The New York Times
 

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Gaza Border Cutting - Hamas the Provocatur or Israel the Deadly Bully

A Day, a Life: When a Medic Was Killed in Gaza, Was It an Accident?

Rouzan al-Najaar, a 20 year old self-educated "medic" as described by the New York Times, was killed during June 2018 by an Israeli soldier's bullet. That is about all anyone can agree on. Hamas had commenced so-called "protests" which I consider to have been an attempt to wash away the Gaza-Israel border by force. Israel, predictably, responded with force as it considers its border to be a legitimate demarcation of national sovereignty. The above-linked NY Times article (link) states that "technically, it (the border marked by a fence) was not even a recognized border, only the armistice line drawn in 1949, after the Israeli-Arab war." The Israeli army had "warned that anyone coming close to the (border) fence would be shot." The implication of the article, of course, is that Israel should not be there.

The article states that:
New York Times said:
Her death was a poignant illustration of the cost of Israel’s use of battlefield weapons to control the protests, a policy that has taken the lives of nearly 200 Palestinians.It also shows how each side is locked into a seemingly unending and insolvable cycle of violence. The Palestinians trying to tear down the fence are risking their lives to make a point, knowing that the protests amount to little more than a public relations stunt for Hamas, the militant movement that rules Gaza. And Israel, the far stronger party, continues to focus on containment rather than finding a solution.
The New York Times writes, as fact rather than as editorial:
New York Times said:
A senior Israeli commander told The Times in August that 60 to 70 other Gaza protesters had been killed unintentionally, around half the total killed at that point.

Yet the Israeli army’s rules of engagement remain unchanged, the military says.

That alone may constitute a separate violation of international humanitarian law, experts say: After enough civilians have died, commanders have a duty to make changes to ensure that they aren’t needlessly targeted.

“You lose the right to say, ‘Oops,’” said Noam Lubell, a professor of the law of armed conflict at the University of Essex.

The large number of accidental killings, and Israel’s failure to adjust the rules of engagement in response, raise the question of whether they were a bug or a feature of its policy.
Hamas is using civilians as an essential part of the "war effort." And the Times wishes Israel to focus on "finding a solution."

Unless someone else has any other ideas, the only such "solution" is to evacuate Jews from Israel. One dovish Israeli musician said as much to me when I asked what Israel's recourse was if the Arabs would not agree to any borders at all for a State of Israel. He said "wouldn't raising children there be child abuse"?

I believe that Israel has every right to exist as a Jewish state, and fight aggressively in that pursuit.
 

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On 1 June 2018, Palestinian medic Rouzan al-Najjar was killed by an Israeli sniper while on the Gaza side of the border. I remember this incident well, and was both surprised and downhearted that a trained soldier would use lethal force against a Gaza female clearly wearing a white medical garment with a florescent band. The New York Times has investigated the harrowing incident and composed the video below accompanied by a written article which is also provided below. The NYT analyzed over 1,000 photos and videos, froze the fatal moment in a 3-D model of the protest, and interviewed more than 30 witnesses and I.D.F. commanders to reveal how Ms. Rouzan was killed.

No one can change what happened on that June day. Rather than cast aspersions on either side which would be unhelpful, I would prefer that everyone consider this tragedy a teaching moment with multiple lessons to be learned.

Related: A Day, a Life: When a Medic Was Killed in Gaza, Was It an Accident? | The New York Times
Sorry, I don't agree with moral equivalence here. The medic was traipsing around a war zone. She was shot. The fact that one side doesn't consider the demarcation to be a border does not mean they can feed civilians into the line of fire.
 

Rogue Valley

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Sorry, I don't agree with moral equivalence here. The medic was traipsing around a war zone. She was shot. The fact that one side doesn't consider the demarcation to be a border does not mean they can feed civilians into the line of fire.

As the video demonstrated, Ms. al-Najjar was at least 150 yards (1½ football fields) away from the barbed wire fence when struck down. Not even the IDF spokesman could rationally explain why she was shot.

And as I patiently explained in my OP, I'd rather not try to assign blame here, but instead use this as a teaching moment for both sides in order to minimize the odds of this tragedy occurring again.
 

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A perfect example of when state policy leads to the deaths of innocents. People in power must understand that their power is often lethal to others and must exercise that power with prudence and forethought concerning the ramifications of using that power. This is not an Israeli thing but a human thing; the arrogance of power and the little people destroyed by the cavalier exercise of that power. It is such a shame and I hope those who serve states realise they are piloting a leviathan which can grind good people into a gory pulp in a split second if that leviathan is not guided very carefully. Be they Africans or Tuaregs in Mali, Yemeni villagers in war torn Yemen or Palestinian medical workers in Gaza, power and the powerfuls' use of coercive force against common folk kills innocents. It is not 'collateral damage' but rather homicide by indifference or hubris and thus it should be treated as such by all citizens of conscience in every country.

Let's hope 2019 sees a decrease in arrogance and hubris of agents of the state resulting in less deaths and maimings by states and their agents. Happy New Year and prayers and laurels for Ms. al Najjar, who died in service to others. Brava Rouzan al Najjar.You are a heroine and an example to all Palestinians of what true shahid (martyrdom) is.

Very respectfully.
Evilroddy.
 

oneworld2

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Sorry, I don't agree with moral equivalence here.

It appears , having read your posts , that you don't agree with equivalence at all

The medic was traipsing around a war zone.

So war zones should be free from medics ? In what reality ?

She was shot.

Whilst evidently posing absolutely no threat , imminent or mortal , to the Israeli that chose to shoot her. She was a non combatant that was targeted and ,imo , murdered by an Israeli sniper. I find your dismissiveness of the circumstances and the obvious wish to exonerate her killer that is surely behind it ( I sure hope it is or it might be even uglier than I thought ) to be pretty vile in all honesty

The fact that one side doesn't consider the demarcation to be a border does not mean they can feed civilians into the line of fire.

I somehow don't think you will apply the same standard to a whole host of Israeli leaderships/political parties , past and present , that have placed and continue to place their own civilians in the West Bank , in areas past the internationally recognized borders there with a view of using them to annexe the territory.

Trying to dress your views up as something approaching even handedness seems to have failed imo
 

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I somehow don't think you will apply the same standard to a whole host of Israeli leaderships/political parties , past and present , that have placed and continue to place their own civilians in the West Bank , in areas past the internationally recognized borders there with a view of using them to annexe the territory.

Trying to dress your views up as something approaching even handedness seems to have failed imo
As far as how the "Palestinians" lost the West Bank remember, they started the war. Also how can anyone, with a straight face, compare the Arab leadership to Israel's leadership?
 

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Re: Gaza Border Cutting - Hamas the Provocatur or Israel the Deadly Bully

A Day, a Life: When a Medic Was Killed in Gaza, Was It an Accident?

Rouzan al-Najaar, a 20 year old self-educated "medic" as described by the New York Times, was killed during June 2018 by an Israeli soldier's bullet. That is about all anyone can agree on. Hamas had commenced so-called "protests" which I consider to have been an attempt to wash away the Gaza-Israel border by force. Israel, predictably, responded with force as it considers its border to be a legitimate demarcation of national sovereignty. The above-linked NY Times article (link) states that "technically, it (the border marked by a fence) was not even a recognized border, only the armistice line drawn in 1949, after the Israeli-Arab war." The Israeli army had "warned that anyone coming close to the (border) fence would be shot." The implication of the article, of course, is that Israel should not be there.

The article states that:The New York Times writes, as fact rather than as editorial:Hamas is using civilians as an essential part of the "war effort." And the Times wishes Israel to focus on "finding a solution."

Unless someone else has any other ideas, the only such "solution" is to evacuate Jews from Israel. One dovish Israeli musician said as much to me when I asked what Israel's recourse was if the Arabs would not agree to any borders at all for a State of Israel. He said "wouldn't raising children there be child abuse"?

I believe that Israel has every right to exist as a Jewish state, and fight aggressively in that pursuit.

I tend to agree, but what would be wrong with a multi-ethnic state with guaranteed representation to the various groups involved? Not my call, but without expert knowledge in the field, I fear that demographics and increased settlements and takeover of the West Bank may have Israel evolve into an apartheid-ish country. I can understand the notion that given Jewish history, a safe homeland must be available, but the price paid by other residents seems unjust.

Somehow it seems that Jehovah/Allah/God’s ultimate ghastly practical joke was to have had the three religions that worship Him squabble for centuries over the same plot of land. Abraham should have stayed put.
 

oneworld2

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Re: Gaza Border Cutting - Hamas the Provocatur or Israel the Deadly Bully

As far as how the "Palestinians" lost the West Bank remember, they started the war. Also how can anyone, with a straight face, compare the Arab leadership to Israel's leadership?

It's amazing how much it is possible to pick up from so few words sometimes

From the few above it becomes obvious that you think the Palestinians are not a real people , unlike the Jews who are , no doubt

That you don't know the history surrounding the Six Day War or possibly even the players involved. Some of the Jewish leaders of the time have been a whole lot more honest about this very subject ( to their credit ) than many that cheer lead for Israel today from a position of historical ignorance or self denial , or both.

When you say it is ridiculous to compare " the Arab leadership to Israel's leadership " I think you might really mean Arab to Jew because if you try to apply the same standards to both sides there's ugliness on both ( and on everyone else btw ) . My guess is that you hold an already entrenched position which wants/has to assign blame to one side only, so there's no real chance of you even considering opening up and trying for a little bit of parity/context/evenhandedness in dealing with the subject and the events , both historically and contemporary .

It's a pity you couldn't actually find it in your heart to bring yourself to comment more on the circumstances surrounding Rouzan al-Najjar's murder , other than to infer she thoroughly deserved it . That's what your previous post came across as and it's pretty ugly tbh . Just my opinion though
 

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Re: Gaza Border Cutting - Hamas the Provocatur or Israel the Deadly Bully

It's amazing how much it is possible to pick up from so few words sometimes

From the few above it becomes obvious that you think the Palestinians are not a real people , unlike the Jews who are , no doubt
The Arabs are a very real people. I do not ask for a separate state for Polish Jews, German Jews, French Jews, etc. Jews are Jews. There is not much difference between a Jordanian Arab and a "Palestinian." Just because they have multiple tribal leaders who sort out their differences be violence doesn't entitle each such leader to a state, a seat in the U.N. etc.

That you don't know the history surrounding the Six Day War or possibly even the players involved. Some of the Jewish leaders of the time have been a whole lot more honest about this very subject ( to their credit ) than many that cheer lead for Israel today from a position of historical ignorance or self denial , or both.
What alternative version of history are you promoting?

When you say it is ridiculous to compare " the Arab leadership to Israel's leadership " I think you might really mean Arab to Jew because if you try to apply the same standards to both sides there's ugliness on both ( and on everyone else btw ) . My guess is that you hold an already entrenched position which wants/has to assign blame to one side only, so there's no real chance of you even considering opening up and trying for a little bit of parity/context/evenhandedness in dealing with the subject and the events , both historically and contemporary .
I am Jewish and proud of it.

It's a pity you couldn't actually find it in your heart to bring yourself to comment more on the circumstances surrounding Rouzan al-Najjar's murder , other than to infer she thoroughly deserved it . That's what your previous post came across as and it's pretty ugly tbh . Just my opinion though
I call it a battlefield death, not a murder. If her colleagues weren't using flaming kits and gasoline-filled balloons this tragedy would not have happened.
 

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Re: Gaza Border Cutting - Hamas the Provocatur or Israel the Deadly Bully

It is certainly never murder when there was no intent to kill.

Hamas bringing civilians to the fence or elsewhere including little kids in the hope that they will get killed is on the other hand actual murder in the cases where they do get killed, there is an intention.
 

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Re: Gaza Border Cutting - Hamas the Provocatur or Israel the Deadly Bully

It is certainly never murder when there was no intent to kill.

If I fire into a crowd, this does indeed constitute an intent to kill and maim which would be regarded as "reckless homicide" at a minimum.

Reverse the incident. What if a Palestinian randomly fired into a crowd of Israelis and killed a person? This is no crime?

You can't have selective prosecution and maintain the rule of law. The law is either blind, or it becomes farcical.
 

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Re: Gaza Border Cutting - Hamas the Provocatur or Israel the Deadly Bully

If I fire into a crowd, this does indeed constitute an intent to kill and maim which would be regarded as "reckless homicide" at a minimum.

Reverse the incident. What if a Palestinian randomly fired into a crowd of Israelis and killed a person? This is no crime?

You can't have selective prosecution and maintain the rule of law. The law is either blind, or it becomes farcical.

First of all I was discussing murder. It can't be called murder as long as there is no intent, no matter what. You can be completely reckless and decide that you're going to drive while watching a video in the car and while you're driving in a school area, while students are having an outdoor activity, and end up running over several children and killing them. That's as reckless a picture I can paint really. This is still not murder unless that person wanted that result and aimed towards it.

To answer your question; if that large crowd of Israelis was at the fence bordering between the territory of Israel and that of Gaza (something that Israel doesn't allow, Israelis who get near the fence will get arrested obviously), if that crowd was there only because it was called on by an Israeli terror group that sends people to murder Palestinians regularly and launches dozens of thousands of rockets into Palestinian population centers attempting to murder men, women and children and as many as they can, if some if not most of that crowd acted violently with some actually trying to tear down the fence - something that will endanger the Palestinian civilians on the other side as among that crowd of Israelis many were members of the mentioned Israeli terror group with a regular activity of Palestinians-murder - while others threw rocks and firebombs at Palestinians on the other side, if that shot was made by a Palestinian who didn't have an intention to actually kill any innocent among that crowd of Israelis, by a Palestinian who is there to defend Palestinians from that violent crowd of Israelis called upon by the mentioned Israeli terror group - if all that was the case, I'm not sure I would be finding any fault with the Palestinians for that.

What I'm trying to say is that we need to understand the situation surroundin this incident and that is true to every time an incident like this happens.
When one understands the situation as I described it above, he understands a completely different picture than the one promoted by those with the intention to grant moral support to the terrorists and their allies and to the violent actions they are organizing with their paid human shields at the fence.
 

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Re: Gaza Border Cutting - Hamas the Provocatur or Israel the Deadly Bully

It is certainly never murder when there was no intent to kill.

Hamas bringing civilians to the fence or elsewhere including little kids in the hope that they will get killed is on the other hand actual murder in the cases where they do get killed, there is an intention.

Apocalypse:

Ah, so the people being shot from hundreds of meters away while trying to aid the fallen are the murders or accessories to murder while the people aiming and shooting the firearms and doing the actual killing are the innocents with no control over the situation. Yup, that explains everything very clearly, thank you.

Evilroddy.
 

oneworld2

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Re: Gaza Border Cutting - Hamas the Provocatur or Israel the Deadly Bully

The Arabs are a very real people. I do not ask for a separate state for Polish Jews, German Jews, French Jews, etc. Jews are Jews. There is not much difference between a Jordanian Arab and a "Palestinian." Just because they have multiple tribal leaders who sort out their differences be violence doesn't entitle each such leader to a state, a seat in the U.N. etc.

You somehow think it's magnanimous of you not to ask for a Jewish Polish territory , or a Jewish French territory with seats at the UN ? lol The people of those countries , in fact all countries , have a seat at the UN based on their territorial integrity , not their demographic make up. It's all pretty bizarre as an intended argument to try to reject the existence of a Palestinian people with the possible further aim of the rejection of any legitimacy for a Palestinian state.

The bit I chose to highlight in the above shows a desire to paint Arabs as somehow uniquely violent automatons imo and is in keeping with an anti Arab bias that is often seen from certain sections of those who claim to be " supporters of Israel ". The obvious truth is that nearly all groups you care to think of have and do resort to violence over differences/conflicting aims , including , shock horror , Jewish people. All very predictable so far

What alternative version of history are you promoting?

I'm not , you are. In your version the Palestinians started the 6 Day War which is pretty ridiculous a position to hold and is completely counter to what many of the Israeli leadership movers and shakers at the time, those who where at the heart of the intelligence assessments and decision making , have since admitted. You seem blissfully unaware of this it would appear . Again , not really a surprise in my experience

I am Jewish and proud of it.

That's not really an answer as to why you appear to apply differing standards based on ethnic differences in that post and now this one in order to buttress an obvious wish to assign blame to one side only. Or maybe more tellingly , none to the Jewish side. Pride can easily act as an obscurant.

I call it a battlefield death, not a murder. If her colleagues weren't using flaming kits and gasoline-filled balloons this tragedy would not have happened.

You would but going on your performance thus far it's hardly coming from anywhere near an objective position. If there were riots in the West Bank and a Palestinian shot dead an Israeli paramedic I'm pretty sure your assessment then would differ sharply .
 

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Re: Gaza Border Cutting - Hamas the Provocatur or Israel the Deadly Bully

Apocalypse:

Ah, so the people being shot from hundreds of meters away while trying to aid the fallen are the murders or accessories to murder while the people aiming and shooting the firearms and doing the actual killing are the innocents with no control over the situation. Yup, that explains everything very clearly, thank you.

Evilroddy.

I said Hamas are responsible for murder, if you want to claim these people who were "trying to aid the fallen" are Hamas this is fine but that has nothing to do with what I said.
If there is an intent to cause the death of a person, it is murder. Hamas wants the civilians to die, that's why Hamas gets them there and why it places its rockets in schools and why it does all the things it does, so when they do die, Hamas is responsible for murders.
 

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Re: Gaza Border Cutting - Hamas the Provocatur or Israel the Deadly Bully

I said Hamas are responsible for murder, if you want to claim these people who were "trying to aid the fallen" are Hamas this is fine but that has nothing to do with what I said.
If there is an intent to cause the death of a person, it is murder. Hamas wants the civilians to die, that's why Hamas gets them there and why it places its rockets in schools and why it does all the things it does, so when they do die, Hamas is responsible for murders.

Apocalypse:

Intent without act is not murder. There must be both intent and act for a person to be guilty of murder. Hamas is guilty of the murders and killings it has committed, to be sure, but it is not guilty of the killings done to March of Return participants, by-standers, press personnel and medical personnel. Those deaths are on the hands of the Israeli state because agents of the Israeli state did the killing and the state has vicarious responsibility for those killings. If Québécois and Québécoise came out in droves to support Quebec separation from Canada and Camadian authorities ordered the shooting of those protesters, those deaths and woundings would be the responsibility of the Canadian Government and not the separatist groups who staged the protest. Palestinians are human beings with basic human rights. They are not vermin to be killed because that's the easiest and most cost efficient method of suppressing their protest.

Evilroddy.
 

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Re: Gaza Border Cutting - Hamas the Provocatur or Israel the Deadly Bully

Apocalypse:

Intent without act is not murder. There must be both intent and act for a person to be guilty of murder. Hamas is guilty of the murders and killings it has committed, to be sure, but it is not guilty of the killings done to March of Return participants, by-standers, press personnel and medical personnel. Those deaths are on the hands of the Israeli state because agents of the Israeli state did the killing and the state has vicarious responsibility for those killings. If Québécois and Québécoise came out in droves to support Quebec separation from Canada and Camadian authorities ordered the shooting of those protesters, those deaths and woundings would be the responsibility of the Canadian Government and not the separatist groups who staged the protest. Palestinians are human beings with basic human rights. They are not vermin to be killed because that's the easiest and most cost efficient method of suppressing their protest.

Evilroddy.

Hamas works towards getting them killed and as such is responsible for murder. There is both intent and actions taken towards that goal.
Placing rockets in schools and paying civilians to get to the fence of a bordering country they are at war with, whose citizens they regularly try to murder, is an action towards getting them killed.
Not recognizing that is the same as believing that these people are vermin to be killed because that's the easiest way to promote propagnada against the ones who defend their country and its citizens from the violent invaders.

Again, Hamas are responsible for acts of murder and not just of Jews.
 

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Re: Gaza Border Cutting - Hamas the Provocatur or Israel the Deadly Bully

Hamas works towards getting them killed and as such is responsible for murder. There is both intent and actions taken towards that goal.
Placing rockets in schools and paying civilians to get to the fence of a bordering country they are at war with, whose citizens they regularly try to murder, is an action towards getting them killed.
Not recognizing that is the same as believing that these people are vermin to be killed because that's the easiest way to promote propagnada against the ones who defend their country and its citizens from the violent invaders.

Again, Hamas are responsible for acts of murder and not just of Jews.

Apocalypse:

Got it. The shooters are the innocents and the targets are the guilty. Hamas is evil and Israeli soldiers who are defending the land of the chosen people can therefore do no wrong in comparison to Hamas. The shooting by Israeli snipers of individuals who happen to get killed or maimed in situations where Hamas is connected is legit because Hamas is the ultimate evil and its participation trumps any responsibility that Israeli leaders, IDF officers, spotters and snipers have for killing non-Hamas people or Hamas affiliated people who are doing no direct harm to Israel but rather are trying to help others who have been shot by Israelis (who can do no wrong) is a solid argument. Those who are amidst the protesters and try to document what is going on are legitimate targets too as they are helping to promote the goals of Hamas and therefore deserve the extrajudicial killing or maiming which they get from Israeli snipers for challenging the Israeli narrative of what is going on.

Your position is very clear and is also very disturbing in my opinion.

The killing of a harmless nurse by Israeli snipers, who wilfully targeted and shot her while she was trying to help the fallen in Gaza, is the fault of Hamas and Hamas only. Israeli military personnel bear no guilt, no matter what they do or who they harm.

Evilroddy.
 
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Rogue Valley

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Re: Gaza Border Cutting - Hamas the Provocatur or Israel the Deadly Bully

The killing of a harmless nurse by Israeli snipers, who wilfully targeted and shot her while she was trying to help the fallen in Gaza, is the fault of Hamas and Hamas only. Israeli military personnel bear no guilt, no matter what they do or who they harm. Evilroddy.

This reminds me of a civilian nurse that was shot dead on the Maidan Nezalezhnosti (Independence Square / Kyiv, Ukraine) by the Berkut (Riot Police) in February 2014. As she was helping a wounded protester bleeding-out on a cold sidewalk, she was shot in the head by a Berkut sniper. The Maidan massacre was ordered by president Viktor Yanukovych, who was instructed to get vicious by Vladimir Putin. Over the course of 24 hours, over 100 unarmed people on Maidan would be shot. Yanukovych would subsequently flee to Russia.

I believe Bashar Assad would blame the victims, as would Omar al-Bashir of Sudan and other notable psychopaths. But blaming the victims while absolving the trigger pullers is usually not found in modern Western societies.
 

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Re: Gaza Border Cutting - Hamas the Provocatur or Israel the Deadly Bully

Got it. The shooters are the innocents and the targets are the guilty.

Who are you referring to with "the targets" though?
Who was targeted here?

Hamas is evil and Israeli soldiers who are defending the land of the chosen people can therefore do no wrong in comparison to Hamas.

Hamas are the evil terrorists, yes, this is a fact of reality.
Your "chosen people" insertion is your own. Hinting as always at the racism driving your positions.

The shooting by Israeli snipers of individuals who happen to get killed or maimed in situations where Hamas is connected is legit because Hamas is the ultimate evil and its participation trumps any responsibility that Israeli leaders, IDF officers, spotters and snipers have for killing non-Hamas people or Hamas affiliated people who are doing no direct harm to Israel but rather are trying to help others who have been shot by Israelis (who can do no wrong) is a solid argument. Those who are amidst the protesters and try to document what is going on are legitimate targets too as they are helping to promote the goals of Hamas and therefore deserve the extrajudicial killing or maiming which they get from Israeli snipers for challenging the Israeli narrative of what is going on.

Hamas are responsible for bringing civilians there and for the violent actions taken against Israel. For the throwing of firebombs and for the attempts to breach the fence and for the several acts of invasions that happened so far. It attempts to get civilians killed, it intends to get civilians killed, it is thus responsible for murder in cases where they die.

Your position is very clear and is also very disturbing in my opinion.

I'm very glad you find the opposition to terrorists and to the murders they commit of both Palestinians and Israelis to be disturbing.
If it wouldn't disturb you it wouldn't be moral.

The killing of a harmless nurse by Israeli snipers, who wilfully targeted and shot her

You're just lying and that's quite pathetic.
If you truly care about innocents dying don't use their deaths to advance your immoral world views, don't lie she was targeted when she wasn't just because you feel like it advances your opposition to the act of Jews defending their lives, that's just manipulating people's deaths for propagnada which is exactly what Hamas does and why it brings civilians to such places or hides rockets in schools.
 

Apocalypse

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Re: Gaza Border Cutting - Hamas the Provocatur or Israel the Deadly Bully

This reminds me of a civilian nurse that was shot dead on the Maidan Nezalezhnosti (Independence Square / Kyiv, Ukraine) by the Berkut (Riot Police) in February 2014. As she was helping a wounded protester bleeding-out on a cold sidewalk, she was shot in the head by a Berkut sniper. The Maidan massacre was ordered by president Viktor Yanukovych, who was instructed to get vicious by Vladimir Putin. Over the course of 24 hours, over 100 unarmed people on Maidan would be shot. Yanukovych would subsequently flee to Russia.

I believe Bashar Assad would blame the victims, as would Omar al-Bashir of Sudan and other notable psychopaths. But blaming the victims while absolving the trigger pullers is usually not found in modern Western societies.


Ordering a massacre is quite different though than a case where a civilian is shot in an accident in a war zone.
If you believe that blaming Hamas means one is blaming the victims though that's just empty propaganda right there.
That you are incapable of understanding a situation as evident by your previous post means that pehraps you shouldn't be so eager to pass judgement about it.
 

Rogue Valley

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Re: Gaza Border Cutting - Hamas the Provocatur or Israel the Deadly Bully

That you are incapable of understanding a situation as evident by your previous post means that pehraps you shouldn't be so eager to pass judgement about it.

The NYT video explains what happened via open source information (following the modality of Bellingcat). I thoroughly understand who shot whom.

If you wish to pretend the sniper here is squeaky clean, then that's your choice. At a minimum, the killing of Rouzan al-Najjar is manslaughter or negligent homicide.
 

Apocalypse

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Re: Gaza Border Cutting - Hamas the Provocatur or Israel the Deadly Bully

The NYT video explains what happened via open source information (following the modality of Bellingcat). I thoroughly understand who shot whom.

If you wish to pretend the sniper here is squeaky clean, then that's your choice. At a minimum, the killing of Rouzan al-Najjar is manslaughter or negligent homicide.

That's not what I've meant with "understanding the situation".
Your earlier post asking what the position would be had this been a Palestinian who shot at an Israeli crowd showed you completely lack understanding of the situation surrounding this incident and in your head this is similar to a civilian being killed by a shot fired in a protest in Paris or something like that.

You're also not in place to judge the soldier who took that shot. Indeed the NYT video explained it very well, but it cannot exchange a military court that will reach the necessary decision.
 

Evilroddy

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Re: Gaza Border Cutting - Hamas the Provocatur or Israel the Deadly Bully

Who are you referring to with "the targets" though?
Who was targeted here?.

The people being hit by the bullets fired by Israeli snipers under the direction of Israeli spotters are the targets.

Hamas are the evil terrorists, yes, this is a fact of reality.
Your "chosen people" insertion is your own. Hinting as always at the racism driving your positions.

No racism, it's a religious reference and it is the central tenet of the Zionist justification for building a Jewish state in the Levant.

Hamas are responsible for bringing civilians there and for the violent actions taken against Israel. For the throwing of firebombs and for the attempts to breach the fence and for the several acts of invasions that happened so far. It attempts to get civilians killed, it intends to get civilians killed, it is thus responsible for murder in cases where they die.

Hamas cannot realize its desire to get Palestinians killed by Israeli military snipers if those snipers don't shoot anyone. It is the Israeli military which is doing the killing of Palestinians in their own homeland by shooting across the frontier and targeting Paleestinians like medical personnel and members of the press who pose no threat to Israeli lives or infrastructure.
And destruction of property should not be a capital crime adjudicated by a spotter and a sniper.

I'm very glad you find the opposition to terrorists and to the murders they commit of both Palestinians and Israelis to be disturbing.
If it wouldn't disturb you it wouldn't be moral.

Are you kidding me? This thread is about the killing of Rouzan al-Najjar, who was a nurse and not a terrorist. Her killing and the killing or maiming of other medical personnel, members of the press and protesters was and is immoral and is criminal.

You're just lying and that's quite pathetic.

I have not lied. Prove your case if you want to throw accusations around like that.

If you truly care about innocents dying don't use their deaths to advance your immoral world views, don't lie she was targeted when she wasn't just because you feel like it advances your opposition to the act of Jews defending their lives, that's just manipulating people's deaths for propagnada which is exactly what Hamas does and why it brings civilians to such places or hides rockets in schools.

Israeli snipers are some of the best trained and most practiced snipers in the world. She was targetted. An Israeli military spokesman informed the world that each bullet fired was well aimed and accounted for. What a pity that that tweet was so quickly removed by Israeli authorities but what a bigger pity for the IDF that it was copied thousands of times and retweeted before the clean-up was done. This was not imprecise fire from rockets or mortars. This was sniper fire. She was targetted.

So there is no justification or legal exculpating for the killing of Ms. al-Najjar by Israeli sniper fire and in the minds of most objective people in the world her death was a crime by IDF snipers and not Hamas puppet masters.

Evilroddy.
 
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