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Billo_Really said:Some people say that ME children are raised to hate us. If that is true, this link is the reason those parents chose to teach it.
Billo_Really said:I think I have just stumbled upon the biggest reason 9/11 happened. The reason why we are so hated by others, that they chose to fly planes into our buildings. I have always stated that you have to have a real hate-on to do something like that. There's not to many things that drive people to that level of hate. And the following link, shows one of those things that does. This is why it happened. This is the root of hatred that Islamist fanaticism harbors towards the US. This is the reason, along with the issue with Israel, for the hatred toward the west.
In order to stop another 9/11 from happening, we first must use our electoral process to clean house. That is the only way to stop this insanity. We ain't gonna get it done with American arrogance, bombs and bullshit.
Some people say that ME children are raised to hate us. If that is true, this link is the reason those parents chose to teach it.
http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,6109,1661516,00.html
Every f_cking word. Although I would rather not. And would just love it if someone could post up some proof that refutes most of whats said. Some things I know for a fact are true because I remember when they happened. Other things I know is true because I see and hear it every day. The last thing I want to think is that we brought this hate on ourselves.Originally posted by Trajan Octavian Titus:
You don't actually believe that **** do you billo?
I've had quite a bit to say about this in the majority of my bouts with Gunny. But in the interests of time (and to save you a walk), I will give a brief summary.Originally posted by teacher:
Some people = me.
Put it into your words for us Billo. I can go to links all day. I'd rather view them through the eyes of those on this site, while on this site that is. In other words, any of us can get ideas everywhere, but I like to see how those of us here in our little DP world interpret such things. If that makes sense. Read; I'm just friggin lazy, but then you know that.
Here's my guess.
Islam.
Trajan Octavian Titus said:You don't actually believe that **** do you billo?
What you say is true. I'm a big believer in karma. I try not to live my life at someone else's expense. But I do. From time to time. I think the key is being aware of not lying to oneself. Yes, we are partly responsible for creating the hatred people have for us. No, it's not all our fault. Yes, we are no angels and have spread our own version of terror throughout the world. No, we are not a great satan nation. Yes, we have committed atrocities recently. No, were not all bad. We do a lot of good as well. Yes, we have done many things we should be condemned for. No, we have not done anything that would justify skyjacking our planes and flying them into our buildings. Yes, our government isn't the best at the moment. No, were not going to let it continue.Originally posted by mixedmedia:
It's not a question of whether or not to believe it. The things he talks about are common knowledge. It is a question of whether you believe such things can be done for a greater good. It is a question of perception.
I say no. I believe that actions in one's own interest always come back around to kick your ass. Now will I say that our past actions are directly the cause of 9/11. No. But have our actions created a pattern of unavoidable collective bad karma? Yes.
Billo_Really said:What you say is true. I'm a big believer in karma. I try not to live my life at someone else's expense. But I do. From time to time. I think the key is being aware of not lying to oneself. Yes, we are partly responsible for creating the hatred people have for us. No, it's not all our fault. Yes, we are no angels and have spread our own version of terror throughout the world. No, we are not a great satan nation. Yes, we have committed atrocities recently. No, were not all bad. We do a lot of good as well. Yes, we have done many things we should be condemned for. No, we have not done anything that would justify skyjacking our planes and flying them into our buildings. Yes, our government isn't the best at the moment. No, were not going to let it continue.
The point is that there are many factors that contribute to the situation were in. However, we can only change ourselves. We cannot change others. They will have to work on that on their end. Hopefully they will. Hopefully we do. It will be one less problem to solve.
I completely agree. I don't like pointing out negative aspects about my country. But I do so knowing full well that is not the only thing my country is about. If your going to accept the accolades, then you have to be willing to accept the criticism. They are flip sides of the same coin.Originally posted by mixedmedia:
Being aware of lying to oneself, yes. It perpetuates the mistakes. There is a really sad tendency in America to resist owning up to our mistakes as a nation - as if to do so belies a sense of self-loathing, aka, anti-Americanism. Funny in light of the emphasis placed on personal responsibility by many of the same folks.
Choices are to keep the blinders on and keep making the same mistakes. Or open your eyes, accept and do what you can within your limited powers to make a difference, aka, voting and utilizing your constitutional right to free speech. And for me, passing on the importance of caring to my kids. I am still optimistic that we will come out of this current cycle as partners in a better world. America is far from the only nation responsible for its share of meddling at a cost to the innocent. I believe the good will eventually outweigh the bad. We just have to accept the realities, all of them, and keep on keeping on.
Billo_Really said:They are flip sides of the same coin.
mixedmedia said:Being aware of lying to oneself, yes. It perpetuates the mistakes. There is a really sad tendency in America to resist owning up to our mistakes as a nation - as if to do so belies a sense of self-loathing, aka, anti-Americanism. Funny in light of the emphasis placed on personal responsibility by many of the same folks.
Choices are to keep the blinders on and keep making the same mistakes. Or open your eyes, accept and do what you can within your limited powers to make a difference, aka, voting and utilizing your constitutional right to free speech. And for me, passing on the importance of caring to my kids. I am still optimistic that we will come out of this current cycle as partners in a better world. America is far from the only nation responsible for its share of meddling at a cost to the innocent. I believe the good will eventually outweigh the bad. We just have to accept the realities, all of them, and keep on keeping on.
This guy who Billo sited wasn't pointing out America's mistakes he was likening us to Nazi Germany and calling for Tony Blair and President Bush to stand trial for war crimes, it's good to know where the Dems in this country really place their allegiance and it sure as hell isn't with the U.S.
ashurbanipal said:1) Tony Blair isn't even an American, so leave him out of it
2) Bush and America aren't equal--it's possible to despise one and love the other. I know plenty of conservatives who hated Clinton and thought he ought to go to prison all the while likening America to Communist Russia. Are they to have their allegiance questioned?
3) What's wrong with hating America anyway? There seem to be some good reasons to do so.
Trajan Octavian Titus said:This guy who Billo sited wasn't pointing out America's mistakes he was likening us to Nazi Germany and calling for Tony Blair and President Bush to stand trial for war crimes, it's good to know where the Dems in this country really place their allegiance and it sure as hell isn't with the U.S.
mixedmedia said:I don't have to agree with every word Harold Pinter says to appreciate the sentiment of his speech. If you would drop your bias for a second, maybe you could learn something. There are people the world over who feel strongly about the moral and legal legitimacy of this war. Maybe if your confidence is strong enough, you can ponder this reality for even a split second without having your sensibilities offended. As we know so well, we have people in this country who don't give a second thought to killing a person who has been convicted of murder. If you take American partisan politics out of it, are the degrees of separation really that steep?
Trajan Octavian Titus said:BIAS???!!!! You've got to be kidding me his entire statement was biased. What the hell does the death penalty for a quadruple murderer have to do with bringing Bush up on charges of crimes against humanity???!!!
Your bias towards our president blinds you from the incredible insanity and danger of this mans statements, I can't believe that not only are you people defending this guy you're actually agreeing with him, this proves my point that the Democrats have morphed into a blame America first, anti-capitalist, pro-communist, anti-Democracy, pro-tyrant, party.
Zell Miller was right about yall.
mixedmedia said:You have interpreted my statements pitifully. You know, Trajan, our president has very little to do with this. It is much bigger than that. If you want to talk about it, great. If you just want to bandy around the same old bullshit then wait around, I'm sure somebody'll come along soon.
Trajan Octavian Titus said:Dude the whole point of this guys statements is that he wants Bush and Blair brought up on charges of war crimes, how do you figure that the president the issue here?
mixedmedia said:Being aware of lying to oneself, yes. It perpetuates the mistakes. There is a really sad tendency in America to resist owning up to our mistakes as a nation - as if to do so belies a sense of self-loathing, aka, anti-Americanism. Funny in light of the emphasis placed on personal responsibility by many of the same folks.
mixedmedia said:This is exactly what I'm talking about. It is not the whole point. That is all you will see because of your own bias. To sum up Pinter's entire speech as simply an anti-Bush tirade...Trajan man it is intellectually small. If you really have faith in your convictions then you should be able to acknowledge the path that leads people to other convictions without being reactionary. It is not his only point. His point is much bigger than that.
mixedmedia said:This is exactly what I'm talking about. It is not the whole point. That is all you will see because of your own bias. To sum up Pinter's entire speech as simply an anti-Bush tirade...Trajan man it is intellectually small. If you really have faith in your convictions then you should be able to acknowledge the path that leads people to other convictions without being reactionary. It is not his only point. His point is much bigger than that.
Iriemon said:Pinter's speech was biased, I agree. But a lot of the stuff is accurate. The US does have a history of supporting reprehensible dictators when it thinks it is in its interest. The moral of the story is if we are determined to throw our power around unilaterally, even if made with good intent, it makes us responsible for the consequences of the action when it doesn't go as planned or if mistakes were made.
Same is true for Iraq. Even if (a big if) we decided to go to war with the best intentions, mistakes were made. 2000+ Americans and some 80,000 Iraqis are dead because we decided to start this war. Some say, well, Hussein was a bad guy and killed lots of Iraqis. That was blood on his hands. Our president decided to make war -- now the blood is on our hands.
Trajan Octavian Titus said:lol well I'd have to say that the Iraqis are happy that we took out Saddam and with their chance at freedom and Democracy.
Well good for you, this is like saying that Clinton should have been brought up on war crimes for his actions in Kosovo I would never in my life would have supported that, this deliberate act of double speak is sickening instead of holding the true genocidal maniac Saddam accountable you people want to turn it around on Bush for getting rid of that piece of ****
first off the U.N. authorized force in resolution 1441, secondly this guys statements are ludicrous in the extreme he mixes a little bit of fact with alot of fiction to make his case, I spotted atleast 20 inaccurate statements and a slew of outright lies,
I really don't feel like breaking that long and boring load of Bullshit down into bits and pieces and explaining in detail why that guy is full ofshit if you believe it that's because you have already made your mind up about America and I doubt that me explaining to you the facts of the matter will change your opinion anyways.
It seems to me that this guy would have been happy if the U.S. lost the Cold War,
it's funny, now that the socialist academic eggheads have been proven wrong about the Soviet Union and socialism through the lessons of history the only recourse now left open to them is to rewrite that history. Chew on that a while.
ashurbanipal said:Well, it actually turns out that Iran was responsible for the use of gas on the Kurds. Then again, Saddam was (and is) a bad guy. That doesn't excuse our own conduct--for one thing, there are plenty of worse rulers that we don't seem to give a damn about.
Trajan Octavian Titus said:uh you're misinformed, haven't you heard of the mass graves???
Actually, I didn't really read what he had to say. It looked like crap to me, but that's not the point. There are quite a number of legitimate reasons that people abroad don't like America (the conduct of our corporations being prime among them). My question was why hating America for wrongful and heinous actions it has undertaken or at least turned a blind eye to is bad. Why is it?
Trajan Octavian Titus said:If you haven't read it then why are you commenting on it?
I try to have as many of the facts as possible before forming an opinion, but if you have anything that I might have missed, I would beg to hear it.
Trajan Octavian Titus said:but you didn't even read the speech so how could you have caught any of the lies in it?
Things being as they were and are, there could have been no good resolution to the Cold War. It's kind of like asking someone to choose between the sewage from New York or Hong Kong for their soup course.
Trajan Octavian Titus said:No it's like asking what you would rather have freedom or dictatorship.
Which socialist accademic eggheads do you refer to?
Trajan Octavian Titus said:Just about everyone of them that I've seen open their mouths.
And why the tacit assumption that Russia represents a socialist utopia, as opposed to, say, Denmark or Norway (where within a socialist system democracy is also practiced and personal liberty is respected)?
Trajan Octavian Titus said:The Soviet Union represented the purest form of socialism, that's how, as for Denmark and Norway they aren't actually socialists they are what is known as social Democrats it's called the third way and in actuality there economies are weak and throughout the majority of the Social Democratic dominated countries unemployment is up, inflation is rampant, and growth is stagnant.
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