The Case for Equality in Gun Ownership

[JMB1911A1]

Which Western Democracies are not "free", in your opinion that is ?

Those that ban free speech for a start.

Here is an example of one nation that is demanding access to private information. I guess you support that.

Apple drops encryption feature for UK users after government reportedly demanded backdoor access

Apple says it will stop offering an advanced data security option for British users after the government reportedly demanded that the company provide backdoor access for any data those users have stored in the cloud.

apnews.com

 

[spud_meister]

Race/ethnicity of gang members.

Gangs number less than a million people, or 0.2% of Americans. It has nothing to do with why 1/3rd of black men have been disarmed, a significant proportion of whom would not have been were they white.

Violent offenders, IMO, should be permanently removed from society.

Problem is, of course, who's convicted of being a violent offender often depends on their race or wealth.

 

[Individual]

Gangs number less than a million people, or 0.2% of Americans. It has nothing to do with why 1/3rd of black men have been disarmed, a significant proportion of whom would not have been were they white.

True, but check out other crime statistics by race/ethnicity.

Problem is, of course, who's convicted of being a violent offender often depends on their race or wealth.

Why is that not a major news story if/when it happens?

 

[spud_meister]

True, but check out other crime statistics by race/ethnicity.

Are you arguing for racial guilt? That all black people deserve harsher sentences because of their race?

Why is that not a major news story if/when it happens?

Data shows Black men receive harsher punishments than whites for same crimes

Black men statistically received harsher prison sentences than white men who commit the same crimes, according to the U.S. Sentencing Commission.

www.wtkr.com

Stephens was 18-years-old when he robbed two people inside their York County home at gunpoint at the direction of 29-year-old Paul Michael Melendres, his white co-worker from a fast food restaurant on the Peninsula.

Nolen, who was 17-years-old at the time, helped Stephens and Melendres carry out the crime. Judge Prentis Smiley, Jr. sentenced Stephens to 1,823 years in prison while sentencing Nolen to 33 years in prison. However, the judge sentenced Melendres to 10 years on the same charges.

https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/study-finds-racial-disparities-whether-us-judges-impose-prison-2023-11-14/

https://repository.law.umich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2413&context=articles

One in Five: Racial Disparity in Imprisonment — Causes and Remedies – The Sentencing Project

Learn three main causes of racial disparity in imprisonment and promising reforms from across the country that can mitigate their impact.

www.sentencingproject.org

Racial Disparities Persist in Many U.S. Jails

Although a wave of changes to sentencing and corrections policies over the past two decades has helped lessen disparities in federal and state prisons, Black adults still were imprisoned in 2020 at five times the rate for White adults.

www.pewtrusts.org

2023 Demographic Differences in Federal Sentencing

(November 2023) A report updating the Commission's data analysis concerning demographic differences in federal sentencing practices.

www.ussc.gov

A simple search will find you plenty of news stories and studies about just that.

 

[Rich2018]

Those that ban free speech for a start.

Here is an example of one nation that is demanding access to private information. I guess you support that.

Apple drops encryption feature for UK users after government reportedly demanded backdoor access

Apple says it will stop offering an advanced data security option for British users after the government reportedly demanded that the company provide backdoor access for any data those users have stored in the cloud.

apnews.com

Banning "Hate Speech" is not banning "Free Speech"
Even in the USA, there are things that you cannot say - as Fox News and Alex Jones recently discovered to the great cost

What about countries than ban their citizens from going to certain countries like Cuba, North Korea, Iran, Eritrea ?
(The UK does not do this though)

What about countries that ban political parties like the Communist Party, and ban their literature and ban communists from free association ?

What about Western Democracies that actively spy on their citizens and issue arrest warrant for anyone exposing this ?

 

[Gozaburo]

Gangs number less than a million people, or 0.2% of Americans. It has nothing to do with why 1/3rd of black men have been disarmed, a significant proportion of whom would not have been were they white.

There's no evidence for the bolded portion. News articles about edges cases are news for just that reason - they're edge cases and not representative of a "significant portion".

Problem is, of course, who's convicted of being a violent offender often depends on their race or wealth.

Certainly. With this kind of thing it's always a question of the chicken or the egg? Does poverty lead to crime or does crime lead to poverty? Both perhaps? I'm highly skeptical of people who seem to insinuate all inequality can be attributed to nebulous forms of discrimination, especially when the demographic inequality in question seems to be universal across nations.

None of this is to say discrimination doesn't occur, of course. It's just to say that - as we would with any other issue - the problem should be considered multivariable and all of the blame cannot be laid at the feet of society or the sins of history.

 

[RF667799]

No, all you did was refuse to find where in nz law is the right to use deadly force. Which you do have in america. Comparing other countries right to self defense with americas right to kill in self defense is just an example of your usual dishonesty in debate.

Too bad that at the time, I believe it was the sources you provided that showed the right of self defense included the use of lethal force. There was little significant difference between the US and New Zealand in that regard.

 

[CLAX1911]

No dictatorships are when you allow one person to control a weak government Do you not know what a dictatorship is?

You are presenting the most absurd illiterate concept I've read on this form yet.

Having rights leads to dictatorship.

 

[soylentgreen]

Too bad that at the time, I believe it was the sources you provided that showed the right of self defense included the use of lethal force. There was little significant difference between the US and New Zealand in that regard.

Not at all there is no right to lethal force in nz. There is only a right to self defense. That was just you pretending it was. The significant difference is that it is written in your laws in most states that you can use deadly force.

 

[soylentgreen]

You are presenting the most absurd illiterate concept I've read on this form yet.

Having rights leads to dictatorship.

No one is arguing that having rights lead to a dictatorship. The argument is that america has a weak government and an idiot dictator taking advantage of that. Not to mention a few politicians whop want to see an end to gay rights.

 

[RF667799]

Not at all there is no right to lethal force in nz. There is only a right to self defense. That was just you pretending it was. The significant difference is that it is written in your laws in most states that you can use deadly force.

You can use lethal force to defend yourself in New Zealand. You can use lethal force to defend yourself in the USA.

 

[CLAX1911]

In your particular case I understand your need for a gun. Your politicians are already moving to remove gay marriage.

The next step quite obviously will be the removal of the right to be gay. Your beloved government is going to make being gay illegal sooner or later. And a person like you who has admitted to being gay will be in need of guns , Good luck with that.

Well part of the reason they can't remove the right to be gay is because we can tell them if we have to.

That's why if you don't have the right to own weapons you have no rights at all.

If the government decides for example that you can't be gay they can just come to your house and shoot you.

Gun control is simply stating that you can't use these things to defend yourself but they can be used against you.

That's why every dictatorship in history has always controlled weapons. Weaponry is the only line of defense towards such a thing.

 

[RF667799]

No one is arguing that having rights lead to a dictatorship. The argument is that america has a weak government and an idiot dictator taking advantage of that. Not to mention a few politicians whop want to see an end to gay rights.

So a strong government prevents a dictatorship? Why then, a government with an overwhelming amount of power over its people, should provide the optimum level of liberty for those people. Somehow.

 

[CLAX1911]

Not at all there is no right to lethal force in nz.

So in New Zealand you have no right to live so long as someone's trying to take your life.

This means you don't have any rights at all.

There is only a right to self defense.

Lethal force is self-defense. If someone's trying to kill you but they're dead are they going to succeed?

That was just you pretending it was. The significant difference is that it is written in your laws in most states that you can use deadly force.

That's because we the people decided rights are more important than the lives of people who want to take them away.

Deciding the opposite of that is dictatorship have fun on your slow decline into your fourth Reich what you have presented here is an example of how not to be a country.

 

[CLAX1911]

No one is arguing that having rights lead to a dictatorship.

That's exactly what you're arguing.

You're not aware of that because you've been propagandized.

If you have no right to defend yourself competently with a firearm you have no rights at all.

Gun control is absolutely saying these things can be used against you to oppress you but you can't use them to stop the oppression that's why every dictatorship takes weapons away from the populace.

The argument is that america has a weak government and an idiot dictator taking advantage of that.

That's an oxymoron you can't have a dictator if you have a weak government. Only strong powerful governments that have swallowed up all the rights from their citizens can create a dictatorship.

Not to mention a few politicians whop want to see an end to gay rights.

They have no power because their servitude and our government is weak. That's not a bug it's a feature.

From the sounds of it your government can just snap away any right they want and you can't do squat.

Again the only thing gun control does is say that these things can be used against you that's all. It doesn't protect anybody except for oppressors and doesn't help anybody except for oppressors that's all it is.

 

[CLAX1911]

So a strong government prevents a dictatorship?

I guess the problem with the Nazis were they were just too weak to run the country of Germany and that's why they have all those death camps and such because of weakness it's not power.

It's like bizarro world with these people.

Why then, a government with an overwhelming amount of power over its people, should provide the optimum level of liberty for those people. Somehow.

He's not understanding a fundamental axiom known since the time of Mesopotamia.

As government expands Liberty contracts. Necessarily a powerful government leads to an oppressed people there's the only reason to have a powerful government is to oppress people.

He's talking like people did in the Weimar Republic and he just doesn't know.

 

[soylentgreen]

You can use lethal force to defend yourself in New Zealand. You can use lethal force to defend yourself in the USA.

No I have no interest in your continued lies. Show me where in nz law it allows for the use of lethal force as it does in america. but you will not because you cannot.

 

[soylentgreen]

Well part of the reason they can't remove the right to be gay is because we can tell them if we have to.

That's why if you don't have the right to own weapons you have no rights at all.

If the government decides for example that you can't be gay they can just come to your house and shoot you.

Gun control is simply stating that you can't use these things to defend yourself but they can be used against you.

That's why every dictatorship in history has always controlled weapons. Weaponry is the only line of defense towards such a thing.

That is why I say you in particular, being gay have an excuse for having a gun. For when your dictatorship of a government bans gays.

 

[soylentgreen]

That's exactly what you're arguing.

You're not aware of that because you've been propagandized.

If you have no right to defend yourself competently with a firearm you have no rights at all.

Gun control is absolutely saying these things can be used against you to oppress you but you can't use them to stop the oppression that's why every dictatorship takes weapons away from the populace.

That's an oxymoron you can't have a dictator if you have a weak government. Only strong powerful governments that have swallowed up all the rights from their citizens can create a dictatorship.

They have no power because their servitude and our government is weak. That's not a bug it's a feature.

From the sounds of it your government can just snap away any right they want and you can't do squat.

Again the only thing gun control does is say that these things can be used against you that's all. It doesn't protect anybody except for oppressors and doesn't help anybody except for oppressors that's all it is.

Your scared of your government and you have every right to be sacred of them. They are gunning for the gay community and your argument of a right to own a gun will also work for those who believe they have a right to kill a gay.

 

[RF667799]

No I have no interest in your continued lies. Show me where in nz law it allows for the use of lethal force as it does in america. but you will not because you cannot.

You will not deny that lethal force can be used in self defense in New Zealand.

That's good enough.

 

[soylentgreen]

I guess the problem with the Nazis were they were just too weak to run the country of Germany and that's why they have all those death camps and such because of weakness it's not power.

It's like bizarro world with these people.

He's not understanding a fundamental axiom known since the time of Mesopotamia.

As government expands Liberty contracts. Necessarily a powerful government leads to an oppressed people there's the only reason to have a powerful government is to oppress people.

He's talking like people did in the Weimar Republic and he just doesn't know.

How ridiculous that americans like you think a government gets to decide things. A string society of people willing to stand for their rights prevents dictatorships. But you would not understand that being a person who needs to rely on a gun rather than a community.

 

[soylentgreen]

You will not deny that lethal force can be used in self defense in New Zealand.

That's good enough.

I have not denied it. Just as you cannot prove it is written in our law. Like it is in yours.

 

[CLAX1911]

Your scared of your government

I'm scared of what they would do if they had absolute power over me. Governments that do that killed more people in the 20th century then religion did in five centuries previous to it.

So if you're not worried about that you don't know your history.

and you have every right to be sacred of them. They are gunning for the gay community and your argument of a right to own a gun will also work for those who believe they have a right to kill a gay.

Every government on the face of the Earth since Mesopotamia is gunning for every single right every single person has.

I'm glad you realize this in just the scope of this one particular leftist ideal but you need to understand that it expands to every right and every person.

 

[RF667799]

How ridiculous that americans like you think a government gets to decide things. A string society of people willing to stand for their rights prevents dictatorships. But you would not understand that being a person who needs to rely on a gun rather than a community.

We're standing for our rights and you're critical of that.

I suppose people are only supposed to stand for their rights, if they are rights acceptable to you. Well too bad. We don't have an Anonymous New Zealand Poster litmus test on the legitimacy of our rights.

 

[CLAX1911]

That is why I say you in particular, being gay have an excuse for having a gun. For when your dictatorship of a government bans gays.

It can't be a dictatorship too many people here have guns. You can't have a dictatorship if the people can kill you.

That's why the second amendment was instituted in the Constitution when it was first written.

I'm glad you realize the necessity of firearms for the people. It's just for every single right not just people who are gay.