The absurdity of climate change denialists

[Lord of Planar]

Standard Lord talking point.

Show I am wrong. This is your way of denying the facts.

 

[Bergslagstroll]

Excuse me for asking an aside question but I noticed that you were posting good info here & I'm trying to understand what is being said about the climate. There's a big fuss over climate but clear specific info is difficult to come by and most of what I'm getting is the idea that other people have already decided for us.

I'd really like to find out for myself what the basic concern is and you posted info about "Climate warming". Please tell me if something else is warming besides the atmosphere. Is it also the oceans and the earth's surface to some depth or is it the biosphere or just the atmosphere? Once I find out what the understanding is for the thing that's warming, then my hope is to find out its temperature is and what it should be.

It's clear that the present warming is caused by human emissions of CO2 and other greenhouse gases. While most of the heat is taken up by oceans. There a concern is that oceans abilities to take up heat will be reduced, thereby leading to accelerating climate change.

Climate Change: Ocean Heat Content

More than 90 percent of the warming that has happened on Earth over the past 50 years has occurred in the ocean. Not all of that heating is detectable yet at the surface

www.climate.gov

 

[Bergslagstroll]

Again there is no empirical evidence that added CO2 is causing any warming! Words alone does not change the observed data!
The climate is changing, but the why the climate is changing remains open. About the only thing that can be eliminated is added greenhouse gases! The reason is because all the warming since we could measure the energy paths in and out of the earth, is from increased Absorbed Solar Radiation, a portion of the spectrum where greenhouse gases do not effect!

You have presented the empirical evidence many times and the evidence is so overwhelming that fossil fuel companies have to publicly claim to support action on climate. While they continue to spend massive amounts of money on delaying the transition.

Reaffirming our commitment to the Paris Climate Agreement | ExxonMobil

We commend President Biden's decision to rejoin the Paris Agreement, a framework that ExxonMobil has supported since its adoption in 2015.

corporate.exxonmobil.com

How the Oil Industry Has Sustained Market Dominance Through Policy Influence

A Historical Analysis of the Oil and Gas Playbook Against Renewables and Electric Vehicles

influencemap.org

You also have not been able to provide a link to single study that have come to the same conclusions as you.

 

[longview]

You have presented the empirical evidence many times and the evidence is so overwhelming that fossil fuel companies have to publicly claim to support action on climate. While they continue to spend massive amounts of money on delaying the transition.

Reaffirming our commitment to the Paris Climate Agreement | ExxonMobil

We commend President Biden's decision to rejoin the Paris Agreement, a framework that ExxonMobil has supported since its adoption in 2015.

corporate.exxonmobil.com

How the Oil Industry Has Sustained Market Dominance Through Policy Influence

A Historical Analysis of the Oil and Gas Playbook Against Renewables and Electric Vehicles

influencemap.org

You also have not been able to provide a link to single study that have come to the same conclusions as you.

Actually you have never presented any empirical evidence that added CO2 causes warming!
And I have linked to actual peer reviewed studies that show the Outbound longwave radiation has increased as the greenhouse gas levels increased.

 

[expat_panama]

It's clear that the present warming is caused by human emissions of CO2 and other greenhouse gases. While most of the heat is taken up by oceans. There a concern is that oceans abilities to take up heat will be reduced, thereby leading to accelerating climate change.

Climate Change: Ocean Heat Content

More than 90 percent of the warming that has happened on Earth over the past 50 years has occurred in the ocean. Not all of that heating is detectable yet at the surface

www.climate.gov

Thanks for coming back to me on this.

What I was looking for was to know just what was heating, what it's temperature was, and whats should the temperature be. What I got from you was that you understood that that most of what's heating is the oceans --51%? We still don't know what the temperature is and we don't know what the temperature should be.

I'll keep looking, but frankly not having this info for me seems significant.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Thanks for coming back to me on this.

What I was looking for was to know just what was heating, what it's temperature was, and whats should the temperature be. What I got from you was that you understood that that most of what's heating is the oceans --51%? We still don't know what the temperature is and we don't know what the temperature should be.

I'll keep looking, but frankly not having this info for me seems significant.

The powers to be like to be mysterious about it, siting anomalies rather than absolutes.

 

[watsup]

The powers to be like to be mysterious about it, siting anomalies rather than absolutes.

How on Earth could you come up with “absolutes” regarding the huge volume of the atmosphere? What a truly ridiculous outlook.

 

[expat_panama]

The powers to be like to be mysterious about it, siting anomalies rather than absolutes.

It may be measured in degrees but it's not temperature.

How hot is it? It's either a 45 degree angle or he graduated w/ 2 degrees in homemaking and geography.

 

[JBG]

CO2 emissions have already had devastating effects and your own links shows the need for action on climate change.

Copernicus: June 2024 marks 12th month of global temperature reaching 1.5°C above pre-industrial | Copernicus

C3S routinely publishes monthly climate bulletins reporting on the changes observed in global surface air and sea temperatures, sea ice cover and hydrological variables.

climate.copernicus.eu

2023 shatters climate records, with major impacts

wmo.int

Exactly what action do you seek? Should we cancel our planned drive into NYC?

 

[Lord of Planar]

It may be measured in degrees but it's not temperature.

How hot is it? It's either a 45 degree angle or he graduated w/ 2 degrees in homemaking and geography.

The global average is somewhere in the neighborhood of 15C, which is 288K. I never understood why these people think the earth should remain below a 1% range in temperature. At 288K, a one percent range is +/- 2.9 degrees.

 

[expat_panama]

The global average is somewhere in the neighborhood of 15C, which is 288K. I never understood why these people think the earth should remain below a 1% range in temperature. At 288K, a one percent range is +/- 2.9 degrees.

Then you get into problems w/ the seasonal changes in solar radiation. The change in the earth/sun distance from January to July decreases the amount by 6%. That's 60 times the affect of the greenhouse effect of 147 terawatts.

 

[watsup]

It may be measured in degrees but it's not temperature.

How hot is it? It's either a 45 degree angle or he graduated w/ 2 degrees in homemaking and geography.

I see that you are back again asking your dishonest questions. Please quit acting like you are actually interested in learning about the present climate change and admit that you are just a standard denier of it who is just trying to make people who respond to look silly. In other words, take your dishonesty and go elsewhere.

 

[watsup]

Then you get into problems w/ the seasonal changes in solar radiation. The change in the earth/sun distance from January to July decreases the amount by 6%. That's 60 times the affect of the greenhouse effect of 147 terawatts.

Thank you for proving my post #487 so quickly

 

[Lord of Planar]

Then you get into problems w/ the seasonal changes in solar radiation. The change in the earth/sun distance from January to July decreases the amount by 6%. That's 60 times the affect of the greenhouse effect of 147 terawatts.

They look at it all in terms of the annual average.

 

[expat_panama]

They look at it all in terms of the annual average.

--and mathematically generate a new number that's pure fiction.

Sure they can SAY that the average is the true temp, while others can argue that the true temp is not the average but the median temperature and yet more researchers will argue for the high/low/close/open of all the readings. Meanwhile the alleged "warming" is a fraction of the seasonal differences hidden in the noise.

No problem. There are folks who care about temperatures and there are others who just strut their self-superiority.

 

[longview]

--and mathematically generate a new number that's pure fiction.

Sure they can SAY that the average is the true temp, while others can argue that the true temp is not the average but the median temperature and yet more researchers will argue for the high/low/close/open of all the readings. Meanwhile the alleged "warming" is a fraction of the seasonal differences hidden in the noise.

No problem. There are folks who care about temperatures and there are others who just strut their self-superiority.

The number is not PURE fiction, but the error bar is greater than claimed.
There is also quite a bit of error moving between the older analog high/low thermometers and the
digital contentious reading thermometers. I read that even the time of day collection on the older units could
alter the average by several degrees.

 

[Lord of Planar]

--and mathematically generate a new number that's pure fiction.

I agree it is fiction. The way they average the number is easy enough, but the process as a whole is fiction.

 

[expat_panama]

The number is not PURE fiction, but the error bar is greater than claimed....

Well, we can agree that nothing is pure in the real world.

However while an actual temperature that really happens in real life can be measured, an average temperature must be calculated and it's possible that this average temperature was never one that some measurement found. Being calculated, average temperatures are subject to biases and agenda driven procedures that can lead us to any conclusion we want.

OK so we're all on the Planet Earth and we all have to take reality as it presents itself. Fine. When people say we must raise taxes to cool what's warming, we can simply ask what is heating and what its temperature is. While answers would be most welcome I find the questions alone seem to end the discussion.

 

[expat_panama]

I agree it is fiction. The way they average the number is easy enough, but the process as a whole is fiction.

Agreed.

 

[longview]

Well, we can agree that nothing is pure in the real world.

However while an actual temperature that really happens in real life can be measured, an average temperature must be calculated and it's possible that this average temperature was never one that some measurement found. Being calculated, average temperatures are subject to biases and agenda driven procedures that can lead us to any conclusion we want.

OK so we're all on the Planet Earth and we all have to take reality as it presents itself. Fine. When people say we must raise taxes to cool what's warming, we can simply ask what is heating and what its temperature is. While answers would be most welcome I find the questions alone seem to end the discussion.

I agree, but as to why they want to raise taxes to cool what is warming is really that they want to raise taxes and just need an excuse.
It just so happens that, because the claimed cause of the warming cannot be tested, they think it cannot be disproven,
but here is where they are wrong. Science usually cannot prove something for certain, but can eliminate things that are not
correct. In the case of CO2 driven global warming, the evidence against CO2 is building.
To cause warming, added CO2 would have to cause an energy imbalance in the longwave radiation spectrum,
but now two decades of satellite data are showing that the longwave radiation energy imbalance has decreased.
We are warming because of increases in the Absorbed Solar Radiation (Shortwave), the greenhouse gases are only a factor
because they are reducing the increase from the ASR, (cooling).

 

[Bergslagstroll]

Well, we can agree that nothing is pure in the real world.

However while an actual temperature that really happens in real life can be measured, an average temperature must be calculated and it's possible that this average temperature was never one that some measurement found. Being calculated, average temperatures are subject to biases and agenda driven procedures that can lead us to any conclusion we want.

OK so we're all on the Planet Earth and we all have to take reality as it presents itself. Fine. When people say we must raise taxes to cool what's warming, we can simply ask what is heating and what its temperature is. While answers would be most welcome I find the questions alone seem to end the discussion.

There is overwhelming evidence for global warming and its devastating effects.

Global Warming of 1.5 ºC —

www.ipcc.ch

Also that federal agencies and their climate research have been under the control and scrutiny by politicians like James Inhofe and Donald Trump.

James Inhofe's Snowball: A Senator's Melting Credibility

The chair of the Senate's environment committee demonstrates that he's not up to the job

time.com

Trump Nominates Acting EPA Chief Andrew Wheeler, a Former Coal Lobbyist, to Lead Agency

Wheeler has been the EPA’s acting administrator for the past six months

time.com

With for example the American military having had operations all across the world dependent on accurate weather data.



While also fossil fuel companies have had operations all across the world for the last hundred years. That has been dependent on accurate weather data. Without being able to disprove official temperature records or find any other contrary evidence.

 

[Bergslagstroll]

Actually you have never presented any empirical evidence that added CO2 causes warming!
And I have linked to actual peer reviewed studies that show the Outbound longwave radiation has increased as the greenhouse gas levels increased.

I and other poster have time after time presented the evidence. While you can't find a single study that makes the same conclusions as you.

Evidence - NASA Science

Earth's climate has changed throughout history. Just in the last 800,000 years, there have been eight cycles of ice ages and warmer periods, with the end of

science.nasa.gov

 

[Bergslagstroll]

Exactly what action do you seek? Should we cancel our planned drive into NYC?

People can still drive a car but people need to get more choices with investments into public transport, cycling paths, walkability and electric cars. There this can save families a lot of money and create more freedom of movement.

The High Cost of Transportation in the United States

What does the average American pay to get around every day in 2024? What portion of their income is devoted to transportation? Is that cost typical across developed countries? Unfortunately, the portion of household expenditure spent on transportation in the United States is often a larger...

itdp.org

15-minute cities: What are they and how do they work? – DW – 03/15/2023

City planners say we have to rethink the way we build urban areas to make them more sustainable, healthy and just. The so-called 15-minute city is one idea. But are they viable?

www.dw.com

The Negative Consequences of Car Dependency | Strong Towns

Towns that are designed for cars instead of people experience serious challenges that negatively impact small businesses, community health, and financial success for everyone.

www.strongtowns.org

 

[longview]

I and other poster have time after time presented the evidence. While you can't find a single study that makes the same conclusions as you.

Evidence - NASA Science

Earth's climate has changed throughout history. Just in the last 800,000 years, there have been eight cycles of ice ages and warmer periods, with the end of

science.nasa.gov

The only thing I can say is if you believe you have cited and quoted empirical evidence that added greenhouse gases cause warming,
then you do not understand the definition of empirical evidence!

 

[expat_panama]

I agree, but as to why they want to raise taxes to cool what is warming is really that they want to raise taxes and just need an excuse.
It just so happens that, because the claimed cause of the warming cannot be tested, they think it cannot be disproven,
but here is where they are wrong. Science usually cannot prove something for certain, but can eliminate things that are not
correct. In the case of CO2 driven global warming, the evidence against CO2 is building.
To cause warming, added CO2 would have to cause an energy imbalance in the longwave radiation spectrum,
but now two decades of satellite data are showing that the longwave radiation energy imbalance has decreased.
We are warming because of increases in the Absorbed Solar Radiation (Shortwave), the greenhouse gases are only a factor
because they are reducing the increase from the ASR, (cooling).

To me this seems like a waste of time, trying consult rationally with someone bent on name-calling. You say CO2 doesn't cause warming. Warming what? You don't even know what this mysterious thing's temperature is so how can you know if it's warmer or not?