• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

The 25%ers vs 99%ers

Because almost nothing else works that way. When you get a roommate and split the living areas, do you split the rent or do you check out their income and say "hey, you make 10x more than me, you should pay 10x more of the share of rent!!!". Of course you don't, that would be shocking and stupid...

If we split taxes the way you are suggesting, equally without regard to income, then every American would owe something approaching $12,000 if we fully funded the government through tax revenues and not borrowing.

So a family of 5 would have to pay $60,000 in federal "equal split" tax. I actually wouldn't be against doing it that way if our income was more evenly distributed. It's the purest form of tax fairness. If our income was more evenly distributed (meaning that the median income was pretty close to the mean income), that family of five, assuming it had two full time workers, would on average have nearly $300k a year of income. Obviously about half of our families would make less and about half would make more, but even a family that was making half of the mean income would easily be able to pay their equal tax.

If you can figure out how to more evenly distribute income, then I am all for your proposal. Of course you also have to figure out what to do with the slackers who wouldn't make much income no matter how much income lower skilled employees recieved. Do we jail those people for not paying their $12k, or do we execute them? I'm fine with giving them 3 years to catch up their tax payments and then execution if they haven't accomplished that. You OK with executing slackers?

Since our income distribution is not that equal, that suggestion is not practical, and thus we have to find a different definition of "fair taxation".
 
Last edited:
If we split taxes the way you are suggesting, equally without regard to income, then every American would owe something approaching $12,000 if we fully funded the government through tax revenues and not borrowing.

Do you think the average American gets $12,000 per year worth of benefit from the government? I do not.

And if government is costing so much that the average American cannot afford to pay his fair share of it, then the problem has nothing to do with anyone not paying enough taxes; the problem is that government is too damn expensive, and needs to be drastically cut back to an affordable level.
 
If we split taxes the way you are suggesting
I only pointed out why it does feel shocking. And I doubt anyone is going to mount a reasonable argument against it.

And let's also point out that it's not *just* the shocking imbalance in what some pay vs others. And it's probably rooted in the total cost, not the percentage.

For example, I wouldn't mind so much if I was paying 20x more than someone else who I know was slacking, if my total cost was $10K, for example . That's in the noise. It wouldn't be nearly the hot topic it is if spending were far lower in the first place. I wouldn't mind so much if taxes temporarily increased to help stimulate government spedning in a recession, if for all the other years it was significantly lower, and government spending was lower, and we didn't sit on a defecit year over year during good times and bad...
 
Do you think the average American gets $12,000 per year worth of benefit from the government? I do not.

It's a lot cheaper than raising your on military, or having to have your own personal police department, so in the sense that certain government services creates a huge economy of scale, yes, the value that the average citizen recieves from the cost of government is far more than $12,000. Look at the standard of living in Somolia (which I am told is the closest country to Anarchy that exists).

But I'm not advocating taxing everyone at the exact same rate. I personally believe that wealthy people and poor people both benefit more from our government than Joe Middle Class does.

And if government is costing so much that the average American cannot afford to pay his fair share of it, then the problem has nothing to do with anyone not paying enough taxes; the problem is that government is too damn expensive, and needs to be drastically cut back to an affordable level.

I agree that it is too damn expensive. I am all for reducing government and eleminating most entitlements.

But you missed that I pointed out that the average American cannot afford to pay his fair share because the average American, as in someone at the current median salary, doesn't make nearly as much as the mean average American. Of those of us who have income, the mean average income, including income from investments whether that income is realized or not, is close to $150k (GDP/income earner). So if income was distributed in a more equitable fashion, the average American could easily afford $12k.

Our problem is not just overspending, it's overspending plus a whacked out income distribution system that prevents people who are at or below the median income level from being able to afford their "fair share" of taxes.

If we lived in an ideal world, we wouldn't need much government, and and taxes could be very low and everyone who is willing to work a full time job would get a very nice paycheck. But we don't live in an ideal world and thats why I pointed out that everyone paying the exact same dollar amount isn't practical.
 
I only pointed out why it does feel shocking. And I doubt anyone is going to mount a reasonable argument against it.

And let's also point out that it's not *just* the shocking imbalance in what some pay vs others. And it's probably rooted in the total cost, not the percentage.

For example, I wouldn't mind so much if I was paying 20x more than someone else who I know was slacking, if my total cost was $10K, for example . That's in the noise. It wouldn't be nearly the hot topic it is if spending were far lower in the first place. I wouldn't mind so much if taxes temporarily increased to help stimulate government spedning in a recession, if for all the other years it was significantly lower, and government spending was lower, and we didn't sit on a defecit year over year during good times and bad...

I'm with ya on all of that.
 
For example, I wouldn't mind so much if I was paying 20x more than someone else who I know was slacking, if my total cost was $10K, for example . That's in the noise. It wouldn't be nearly the hot topic it is if spending were far lower in the first place. I wouldn't mind so much if taxes temporarily increased to help stimulate government spedning in a recession, if for all the other years it was significantly lower, and government spending was lower, and we didn't sit on a defecit year over year during good times and bad...

Hey, we can't do that! That would be Keynesian! Keynesianism is dead! You didn't hear? Didn't get the memo?

The only time that I recall that we came close adhering to the complete Keynesian prescription was when Clinton raised taxes in '93. Worked pretty good for a while, IIRC.
 
Perhaps this will help. But being from 2005, it is a bit dated, though it does include all taxes.

effective marginal by earnings 2005.pdf

According to these estimates, taking federal, state and local taxes into account, the effective tax rate for the highest decile of earners ranged from 31.88% to 45.19% for 2005. [...]
I see four people (the poster above and three 'likers') clearly think that a "marginal tax rate" is the same as an "effective tax rate" :lamo
 
If we split taxes the way you are suggesting, equally without regard to income, then every American would owe something approaching $12,000 if we fully funded the government through tax revenues and not borrowing.

So a family of 5 would have to pay $60,000 in federal "equal split" tax. I actually wouldn't be against doing it that way if our income was more evenly distributed. It's the purest form of tax fairness. If our income was more evenly distributed (meaning that the median income was pretty close to the mean income), that family of five, assuming it had two full time workers, would on average have nearly $300k a year of income. Obviously about half of our families would make less and about half would make more, but even a family that was making half of the mean income would easily be able to pay their equal tax.

If you can figure out how to more evenly distribute income, then I am all for your proposal. Of course you also have to figure out what to do with the slackers who wouldn't make much income no matter how much income lower skilled employees recieved. Do we jail those people for not paying their $12k, or do we execute them? I'm fine with giving them 3 years to catch up their tax payments and then execution if they haven't accomplished that. You OK with executing slackers?.

you are flipping back and forth between "income" and "wealth"; but the two are only connected (again) through the habits and events of the income earner. and the notion that you could "more evenly distribute income" is itself ridiculous - because income is generally determined by the individual receiving it. generally you are paid in proportion to your services to others - doing a greater service will reap a greater reward. you can't "more evenly distribute" income any more than you can more evenly distribute people's willingness and ability to serve each other.

Since our income distribution is not that equal, that suggestion is not practical, and thus we have to find a different definition of "fair taxation".

you're not going to - for the simple reason that fairness is subjective. higher tax rates on the wealthy for some are a cultural issue rather than a revenue one. Others prefer that taxes be generally kept to a minimum necessary to support a government that is also kept minimum necessary, and see no reason why it is "fair" to take from them (or others) more than is minimally necessary. Fair will be based on how you approach government - is it a tool to keep us safe from abuse? or a tool to redistribute wealth? those will give you dramatically different "fair" results.

we are better off sticking with seeking a tax code that works while providing as little drag on it's people as possible.
 
[...] A novel debating tactic is to take the time to disprove another's claim. [...]
I disproved the claim back in post #185, long before the bovine aroma wafted in from post #194. Another novel debating tactic is to keep up.
You disproved nothing. You stated your opinion. [...]
This is what happens when you make more than one point in one post, folks.... your detractors will retort that they can't understand it or didn't see it (or, apparently, that it simply didn't happen). I will try to simplify in the future, so that needless repetitions can hopefully be avoided. In the meantime, post #185 as referenced above follows, so that everyone can see the fail:

Anyone who offers an argument using income taxes alone as a proportional measure of government contributions (payments) is not arguing from a position of seriousness, but of intellectual dishonesty.

currentlaw1_7.gif


TPC Tax Topics | Current-Law Distribution of Taxes



Furthermore, my source says 32% paid by the top 1%, so I'm at a loss as to why your source says 40%... oh, that's right, you didn't provide a source, now did you?

 
I see four people (the poster above and three 'likers') clearly think that a "marginal tax rate" is the same as an "effective tax rate" :lamo

Karl, please read the linked-to material little more carefully. The title is "effective marginal tax rates" because each decile is classified both vertically and horizontally. Or, as the source states:

Notes: Deciles (tenths of the income distribution) were constructed by ranking tax returns by their level of earnings. Only returns with earnings were included. The dark line in the center (the 50th percentile) represents the median marginal rate for a given decile. The area between the 25th and 75th percentiles is the range containing the middle half of tax returns in each decile. The area between the 10th and 90th percentiles is the range containing the middle 80 percent of tax returns in each decile.

Hence, "effective marginal tax rates" for each decile of earnings.
 
Karl, please read the linked-to material little more carefully. The title is "effective marginal tax rates" because each decile is classified both vertically and horizontally. Or, as the source states: [...]
This is simply too painful to comment upon.
 
This is simply too painful to comment upon.

From the tone of this and some of your earlier posts, you appear to view exchanges here on DP as something of an adversarial d*&k measuring contest. That's ok if that's what you want to get out of it. Personally, I tend to view it more as a debate or discussion or exchange of ideas in a civilized manner, instead of a put-down contest. So, I'm going to ask you: please respond thoughtfully instead of caustically.
 
This is what happens when you make more than one point in one post, folks.... your detractors will retort that they can't understand it or didn't see it (or, apparently, that it simply didn't happen). I will try to simplify in the future, so that needless repetitions can hopefully be avoided. In the meantime, post #185 as referenced above follows, so that everyone can see the fail:

"Folks". Are you pandering to someone? Think you got a fan group?

Now lets look at the pie chart you have provided. I own a business ( really do ). For sake of simplicity because I am sure you have never actually owned a business, and the information you provided is off the backs of others who have put skin in the game... Anyway...

See that little pie chart you sited, As the owner of my company, I get to pay both sides of that pie chart of individual and payroll. I can be 1 person, who gets paid to install a sink for 100 dollars. I then need to pay corporate taxes, then I need to pay the tax on the distribution when I get paid.

Just wondering, do you get that?

Again your OPINION in that post is unsupported.
 
Last edited:
If 1% of the economy has somewhere around 40-50% of the wealth, shouldn't they pay at least that share in income tax? That seems like a less than shocking "statistic".

why do you confuse wealth with income. Much wealth does not generate income and taxing wealth would be unfair.
 
why do you confuse wealth with income. Much wealth does not generate income and taxing wealth would be unfair.
How does one tax wealth? Every year every person pays 1% of their net worth? Oh wait, not everyone, only people with more net worth than the person seeking to create a "wealth tax".
 
[...] Now lets look at the pie chart you have provided. [...]
Still desperately dodging the second half of that post, eh? Okay, fine.

See that little pie chart you sited, As the owner of my company, I get to pay both sides of that pie chart of individual and payroll.
I don't care. No one cares. Anecdotal information has no place in logic nor in a debate.

Furthermore, the only purpose of the pie chart was to show the bogus nature of TurtleDude's argument -- he would only cite income taxes, when the pie chart clearly shows that income taxes are only half of total government receipts (edit: and by ignoring payroll taxes biases upwards the percentage the rich pay, making his argument even more deceitful). This has been explained several times already; why don't you get it?

I can be 1 person, who gets paid to install a sink for 100 dollars. I then need to pay corporate taxes, then I need to pay the tax on the distribution when I get paid. Just wondering, do you get that?
You can be whomever you want; it's the internet. However, if you are a one-person company, and you are doing your own labor (installing sinks), then you need to be an accountant -- so you can advise yourself that, in such a situation, you need not waste money on incorporation for the corporate veil will be unlikely to shield you from personal liability.

Again your OPINION in that post is unsupported.
ROFLMAO... see, folks, he's still deathly avoiding the second half of that post :lamo
 
Last edited:
you are flipping back and forth between "income" and "wealth"; but the two are only connected (again) through the habits and events of the income earner. and the notion that you could "more evenly distribute income" is itself ridiculous - because income is generally determined by the individual receiving it. generally you are paid in proportion to your services to others - doing a greater service will reap a greater reward. you can't "more evenly distribute" income any more than you can more evenly distribute people's willingness and ability to serve each other.

Income and wealth are connected. People with higher incomes tend to accumulate higher wealth. People with lots of wealth tend to invest a large chunk of it and thus tend to have higher incomes. You are also making the assumption that income is actually distributed fairly according to what people contribute. That is true to a limited extent, and if we had a perfect market, it would be totally true. Reality is that income is skewed upwards toward those who have greater power, to the point where those who have great power, recieve income that is far above what any true fair market would arive at. Since some people are recieving more income than they actually produce, others neccessarally recive less income than they produce.

When you discuss economics, it's nice to be all theoritical, but you also have to face the fact that the reality is our system is skewed and distorted by non-economic forces, such as corruption, power, and and other human traits. I'm not suggesting that I have a fix for the problem, but I do belive that a highly progressive tax system does tend to limit the income skew.

you're not going to - for the simple reason that fairness is subjective. higher tax rates on the wealthy for some are a cultural issue rather than a revenue one. Others prefer that taxes be generally kept to a minimum necessary to support a government that is also kept minimum necessary, and see no reason why it is "fair" to take from them (or others) more than is minimally necessary. Fair will be based on how you approach government - is it a tool to keep us safe from abuse? or a tool to redistribute wealth? those will give you dramatically different "fair" results.

we are better off sticking with seeking a tax code that works while providing as little drag on it's people as possible.

No, we already have an alternate definition of fair that the majority of Americans accept, and thats called the progressive tax system. It taxes workers who tend to have higher incomes due to power at a higher rate and individuals who have low power and low incomes at a lower rate. Other than public education, it's the one main equalizer of the faults of an imperfect economy.

We have already found an income tax system that "works". What we have now has lasted nearly 100 years (I believe that the progressive income tax system started in 1913), and it has help our economy to outgrow every other economy in the world on a per capita bases. Communism has failed, socialism is proving to have failed in much of Europe, facism failed. We already have the best system in the world, our economic prosperity has proven this to be true, so instead of reinventing the wheel, lets just adjust it to optimize performance.

I am all for some fine tuning of our economic system - reduction in the size of our government over a period of time at a rate that does not impead our recovery from recession, the elemination and/or of most entitlements, eleminating or reducing corporate taxes, taxing capital gains the same way we tax any other income (although I would suggest that we adjust capital gains to account for inflation), reducing the number of tax brackets which we have and increasing the the starting point of the highest tax rate (the "rich" tax) significantly upwards so that only those who actually have an income which is significantly above the norm have to pay the highest tax rate.
 
Last edited:
why do you confuse wealth with income. Much wealth does not generate income and taxing wealth would be unfair.

Income and wealth are very much connected. Do you denie that our wealthiest citizens also tend to have the most income, and that our highest income citizens tend to become the wealthiest? While taxing wealth may be inpractical, taxing income is practical and has a similar economic effect.

Taxing anything is "unfair". Fair doesn't matter nearly as much as practicality. I really don't see how you can disagree with that.
 
Last edited:
How does one tax wealth? Every year every person pays 1% of their net worth? Oh wait, not everyone, only people with more net worth than the person seeking to create a "wealth tax".

I agree that it is impractical to directly tax wealth, but our system does a fairly good job of indirectly taxing wealth. Direct or indirect, the effect is similar:

Taxing capital gains effectively reduces the amount of additional wealth one may have have had.

Taxing income effective reduces the amount of additional weatlh one may have had.

Taxing property, as in the real estate and car tax that most states have, is effectively a tax on wealth.

Even when one buries his money in the back yard, his money is effectively taxed by inflation.

In some cases, we even have some tax of wealth at the time of death.

When one converts his stored wealth (cash) to consumer products (buys stuff for personal use), in most states that transaction is taxed in the form of sales tax, and thus wealth is taxed.
 
Last edited:
How does one tax wealth? Every year every person pays 1% of their net worth? Oh wait, not everyone, only people with more net worth than the person seeking to create a "wealth tax".

On the Federal level wealth is taxed via inflation.

On the state level most are taxed on property.
 
what an idiotic rant. You start from the moronic assumption that the rich should pay a higher rate because they are rich EVERYONE IS BETTER OFF TODAY than they were 30 years ago.

the RICH PAY A HIGHER AMOUNT OF THE income tax now than they did 40 years ago.

tell me why it is written in stone that the rich should pay a higher tax rate

tell me why it is written in stone that I should pay a higher amount for my citizenship benefits than you do?

Now STFU you slackers who aren't pulling your own weight

Everyone is better off? Not exactly.
inequality-p25_averagehouseholdincom.png

I can't remember what inflation has been over the last 30 years off the top of my head, but I'd be amazed if anyone's wages below the top 20 percent have kept up with it. In case you can't figure out what that means, in means that real wages have decreased substantially for the large majority of the country over the last couple of decades, which isn't exactly what I'd call everyone being better off.
 
Income and wealth are very much connected. Do you denie that our wealthiest citizens also tend to have the most income, and that our highest income citizens tend to become the wealthiest? While taxing wealth may be inpractical, taxing income is practical and has a similar economic effect.

Taxing anything is "unfair". Fair doesn't matter nearly as much as practicality. I really don't see how you can disagree with that.

taxing wealth that does not earn income is blatantly unfair. If I buy a painting that is worth a million dollars and pay sales tax on it, why should I be taxed every year from then on merely to own it.
 
Everyone is better off? Not exactly.
inequality-p25_averagehouseholdincom.png

I can't remember what inflation has been over the last 30 years off the top of my head, but I'd be amazed if anyone's wages below the top 20 percent have kept up with it. In case you can't figure out what that means, in means that real wages have decreased substantially for the large majority of the country over the last couple of decades, which isn't exactly what I'd call everyone being better off.
why do you ignore value received in your tax calculations
 
Everyone is better off? Not exactly.
inequality-p25_averagehouseholdincom.png
Are you claiming that your graphs contradict TD's contention that everyone is better off than they were 30 years ago? If so, learn how to read graphs.
 
Back
Top Bottom