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The 1619 Project's Hannah-Jones's Response to The National Review is All Too Familiar

Give her time, she'll be back on TV running down the US in no time.
She went after Al Sharpton recently because he reported about a steak smash-and-grab at Trader Joe's in NYC & said "There have always been thefts".

So she's pretty much attempting to excuse the recent Smash 'N' Grab craze.
 
I love he's arguing "the correction was made" as if that settles it. There just not thinking this through and their ignoring some very recent history.

The original billing of the project was to assert that 1619 was "the true founding of America." They've since backed off this language, but this is a screen grab from the interactive version of the NY Times Magazine where where the editors summarize what the entire project is about:

View attachment 67373885

And here's why we know her claim about the Revolution was no oversight but a very intentional statement. If you start with the belief the nation was founded (with all that word implies) on slavery then it makes perfect logical sense to assert the justification for the revolution was to preserve slavery. By way of a counter example, it makes no logical sense to say "Our true founding was the day we brought the first slaves to our shores .... but, of course, the American Revolution was fought to free us from the remnants of the European feudal system and to establish the world's first functioning, large-scale democracy."

Her claim that the preservation of slavery was the reason for the Revolutionary War was completely necessary to support the very core of the overall project's message.

BLM's site also used to have something about a "western prescribed nuclear family". I forgot what verb they used with it - it wasn't defy or reject but it was one of those revolutionary, cool sounding terms. I remember! The term was "disrupt".

They realize that the language needs to be toned down a bit, otherwise even Prius drivers will take offense of their "progressiveness".
 
Give her time, she'll be back on TV running down the US in no time.
Sure. She's Thanos in disguise. I get it. And.........*drum roll*...........the correction was made.
 
She went after Al Sharpton recently because he reported about a steak smash-and-grab at Trader Joe's in NYC & said "There have always been thefts".

So she's pretty much attempting to excuse the recent Smash 'N' Grab craze.
Well, if that's her constituency, then maybe they won't be upset at her continued position? 🤔
 
You’re now BS-ing. You know very well what I said, and I clearly implied above racism is still with us.

No, racism was once part of our legal and political systems but it has never been inherent. And no, “inherent” doesn’t mean “part of,” either.

Quibbling.
 
BLM's site also used to have something about a "western prescribed nuclear family". I forgot what verb they used with it - it wasn't defy or reject but it was one of those revolutionary, cool sounding terms. I remember! The term was "disrupt".

They realize that the language needs to be toned down a bit, otherwise even Prius drivers will take offense of their "progressiveness".
Yep, advocacy for the "nuclear family" is often cast as a form of white oppression. This one was actually posted at, of all places, The Smithsonian ...

1644535536461.webp

Saw the same sentiment expressed recently from a group calling itself the "D.C. Area Educators for Social Justice." Posted about it here.
 
I never said racism wasn't present. When people are involved in any system they bring with them all their failings, and racism is certainly one such example.

I said racism is not inherent in our system. The words "present" and "inherent" do not mean the same thing.
It almost sounds as if you're saying that any system, by virtue of the involvement of its people, will inher... um, inevitably reflect some of their failings, such as racism.

A) People have a general tendency to pursue their own self-interest and the interests of their families, friends and others with whom they identify or share worldviews/cultures
B) People who are wealthy or otherwise influential/powerful disproportionately shape a society's laws, institutions and customs, and by virtue of a lifetime (or family background) of acquiring that wealth and power are likely even more prone to that tendency than normal
C) In American history, 'whiteness' was one of if not the most consistently predictable characteristic from wealthy/influential people and conversely 'blackness' almost unequivocally most predictive for having little or no wealth, influence or even political enfranchisement
D) In theory, we should expect American laws, institutions and customs to disproportionately favour wealthy/influential people, disfavouring those who are poorer and marginalized, and being least congenial to the historical 'black' underclass
E) In practice, American politicians and political advisors have noted the racial undertones of even its politics, as for instance Reagan advisor Lee Atwater discussing the 'southern strategy' and Reagan's policies in 1981: "So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it."

As far as I can tell these are more or less generic observations, yet they pretty succinctly explain the reasons for so-called 'white privilege' (ie, the relative disadvantages against non-white people), linguistic elitism/discrimination against non-'standard' dialects, the inherent tendencies of American civil and legal institutions to perpetuate or even increase racial disparities, and the observed fact that many of those disparities have indeed persisted for decade after decade and in some cases even widened.
 
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Yep, advocacy for the "nuclear family" is often cast as a form of white oppression. This one was actually posted at, of all places, The Smithsonian ...



Saw the same sentiment expressed recently from a group calling itself the "D.C. Area Educators for Social Justice." Posted about it here.

I've seen that before. It's anti-merit, anti-father, and anti-male, so I can't subscribe to it.
 
I love he's arguing "the correction was made" as if that settles it. There just not thinking this through and their ignoring some very recent history.

The original billing of the project was to assert that 1619 was "the true founding of America." They've since backed off this language, but this is a screen grab from the interactive version of the NY Times Magazine where where the editors summarize what the entire project is about:

View attachment 67373885

And here's why we know her claim about the Revolution was no oversight but a very intentional statement. If you start with the belief the nation was founded (with all that word implies) on slavery then it makes perfect logical sense to assert the justification for the revolution was to preserve slavery. By way of a counter example, it makes no logical sense to say "Our true founding was the day we brought the first slaves to our shores .... but, of course, the American Revolution was fought to free us from the remnants of the European feudal system and to establish the world's first functioning, large-scale democracy."

Her claim that the preservation of slavery was the reason for the Revolutionary War was completely necessary to support the very core of the overall project's message.
I wonder if all the people who got their knickers in a knot over the inaccuracies in telling American history from a heavily Afro-centric perspective were also up in arms for decade after decade after decade of heavily Euro-centric tellings?

Judging by what you've posted, this Project never even pretended to be a strictly 'objective' historical perspective (as if such a thing ever existed), but explicitly aimed to "place the consequences of slavery and the contributions of black Americans at the very center of the story we tell ourselves about who we are"... in fairly obvious response to the endless stories placing white Americans at the center of the story. Vigourously critiquing inaccuracies in such a Project - and respecting the correction of those inaccuracies - would be all well and good coming from people who were equally dedicated in their prior and ongoing critiques of Euro-centric perspectives.

But if, as seems to have been the case here, an Afro-centric perspective is uniquely singled out for particular criticism by some academics, certain media outlets and various internet posters, what do you suppose we should infer from that?
 
BLM's site also used to have something about a "western prescribed nuclear family". I forgot what verb they used with it - it wasn't defy or reject but it was one of those revolutionary, cool sounding terms. I remember! The term was "disrupt".

They realize that the language needs to be toned down a bit, otherwise even Prius drivers will take offense of their "progressiveness".
Yes, "We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and ‘villages’ that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable." Is there a problem with alternative family models such as two fathers, two mothers, more than two parents, more than three children, or single parents with other caregivers? For most of human prehistory children likely would have had a mother and no 'father,' just the rest of a tribal group as carers. The increasing atomization of modern, especially Western societies can make single-parent households suboptimal in terms of available income, available attention for the child/ren, and not least the role-modelling of conflict and resolution between respectful partners; hence it is a widely held social assumption that the nuclear family structure is a requirement and, sometimes implicitly or often said out loud, that other models just aren't right. But in light of human history, prehistory and the array of different cultures even today, that is obviously just a cultural assumption - one rooted primarily in the traditions of Christianity.

So do you think it's a big "gotcha" moment that they had that sentence on their website? Doesn't seem like one to me. Or maybe it's a big "gotcha" moment that they removed it. Assuming that was due to public perception rather than some more innocuous reason, wouldn't that kind of prove their point about the strength of this cultural paradigm, apparently even among many of their supporters? Perhaps they simply decided it wasn't a battle they needed to fight right now.



Yep, advocacy for the "nuclear family" is often cast as a form of white oppression. This one was actually posted at, of all places, The Smithsonian ...

View attachment 67373904

Saw the same sentiment expressed recently from a group calling itself the "D.C. Area Educators for Social Justice." Posted about it here.
As far as I can see that doesn't describe any of those things as "oppression"; that seems to be a bit of hyperbole on your part. But that, like Rickeroo's post raises the interesting question: When we seem to treat it as essentially blasphemy to question the nuclear family (or any of those other things), doesn't that suggest an implicit assumption that this nuclear family aspect of Western culture is so obviously superior that we can't even understand why it might be critiqued? And if so, how is that not a form of Western/white cultural supremicism?

Offhand it seems that to greater or lesser extents the same might be said of all the things listed there, besides the scientific method; a society and culture can survive and flourish without that 'rugged individualism,' without that 'nuclear family,' without that historical perspective, without that particular 'work ethic' and so on. In fact a case can be made that some of the major 21st century problems both globally and for individuals psychologically are being caused or exacerbated by some of those cultural values, particularly extreme individualism. That's not to say that they are always or even mostly bad, inherently - at a glance I don't see that suggested anywhere on the original page archive. But they are values predominantly associated with Christian, European and eventually other Western cultures and not framed in the same way or emphasized as much (if at all, in some cases) in, say, many African or Middle Eastern or Asian cultures.

So why do you consider it problematic for those cultural assumptions to be spotlighted by the National Museum of African American History and Culture? Is it because they are so obviously superior that they shouldn't even be questioned? I find this a rather interesting topic; trying to think outside the box of my own upbringing and culture is indeed quite difficult despite my habitual efforts to be open-minded, so it's not hard to see how something like that might rub other people the wrong way.
 
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This is worth a read as it speaks to the larger issue of how CRT and CRT-inspired works are defended:


... and you need not look beyond DP to find examples of Hanah-Jones's less than serious tactics. As anyone who has criticized CRT on these pages can tell you, such a thread cannot go more than a dozen posts before someone lazily trouts out a charge of racism. That CRT's defenders cannot defend the theory and its applications without resorting to gratuitous personal attacks is reason enough why they -- and the theory itself -- can fairly be questioned.
How so? Refute it point by point. All that I have read is factual. Are you disputing the facts?
 
It almost sounds as if you're saying that any system, by virtue of the involvement of its people, will inher... um, inevitably reflect some of their failings, such as racism.

A) People have a general tendency to pursue their own self-interest and the interests of their families, friends and others with whom they identify or share worldviews/cultures
B) People who are wealthy or otherwise influential/powerful disproportionately shape a society's laws, institutions and customs, and by virtue of a lifetime (or family background) of acquiring that wealth and power are likely even more prone to that tendency than normal
C) In American history, 'whiteness' was one of if not the most consistently predictable characteristic from wealthy/influential people and conversely 'blackness' almost unequivocally most predictive for having little or no wealth, influence or even political enfranchisement
D) In theory, we should expect American laws, institutions and customs to disproportionately favour wealthy/influential people, disfavouring those who are poorer and marginalized, and being least congenial to the historical 'black' underclass
E) In practice, American politicians and political advisors have noted the racial undertones of even its politics, as for instance Reagan advisor Lee Atwater discussing the 'southern strategy' and Reagan's policies in 1981: "So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it."

As far as I can tell these are more or less generic observations, yet they pretty succinctly explain the reasons for so-called 'white privilege' (ie, the relative disadvantages against non-white people), linguistic elitism/discrimination against non-'standard' dialects, the inherent tendencies of American civil and legal institutions to perpetuate or even increase racial disparities, and the observed fact that many of those disparities have indeed persisted for decade after decade and in some cases even widened.
And yet, somehow, someway, a nation so inherently racist, so steeped in its whiteness, with an electorate 75% white, voted a black man with an Islamic sounding name to our highest office … twice.

When your country — or any other country — grants its highest level of political authority to a member of a historically disenfranchised minority in this way, let me know. Until then, you’re in no position to lecture the United States about dealing with the human failing of racism. We’re doing it as well or better than any other country.
 
So do you think it's a big "gotcha" moment that they had that sentence on their website? Doesn't seem like one to me. Or maybe it's a big "gotcha" moment that they removed it.

For me, BLM's statement was about one word: Western. Not only was it completely unnecessary to get their point across, but it indicated a gratuitousness, a point being made. I don't think anyone before or since has described a nuclear family as "Western". So red flag there. Long story short, they are against capitalist Western culture. I realize the "she's a trained Marxist" doesn't matter to most, so that needs to be taken into context with this tweet from BLM:

“The evils of capitalism are as real as the evils of militarism and racism” - Martin Luther King Jr.

https://blacklivesmatter.com/black-xmas/ :

at every turn, white-supremacist-capitalism is telling us to spend our money on things that we don’t need

As BLMLA organizer, Jan Williams, reminds us, “Capitalism doesn’t love Black people

In fact, white-supremacist-capitalism invented policing, initially as chattel-slavery-era “paddy rollers,”

to intentionally use our economic resources to disrupt white-supremacist-capitalism and build Black community


Let’s harness our economic power to disrupt white-supremacist-capitalism

"Western" is a very odd term to use, much like "whiteness" in public schools. It sparks curiosity.
 
I wonder if all the people who got their knickers in a knot over the inaccuracies in telling American history from a heavily Afro-centric perspective were also up in arms for decade after decade after decade of heavily Euro-centric tellings?

Judging by what you've posted, this Project never even pretended to be a strictly 'objective' historical perspective (as if such a thing ever existed), but explicitly aimed to "place the consequences of slavery and the contributions of black Americans at the very center of the story we tell ourselves about who we are"... in fairly obvious response to the endless stories placing white Americans at the center of the story. Vigourously critiquing inaccuracies in such a Project - and respecting the correction of those inaccuracies - would be all well and good coming from people who were equally dedicated in their prior and ongoing critiques of Euro-centric perspectives.

But if, as seems to have been the case here, an Afro-centric perspective is uniquely singled out for particular criticism by some academics, certain media outlets and various internet posters, what do you suppose we should infer from that?
Yes, judging by what I've posted you should question whether The 1619 Project was an honest attempt to portray American history seeing as I contend that it was not.

More importantly, where in The 1619 Project do you find a disclaimer to that effect?
 
Is there a problem with alternative family models such as two fathers, two mothers, more than two parents, more than three children, or single parents with other caregivers?
Yes, absolutely. The rate of young, out-of-wedlock births in a given demographic is perhaps the single most important factoring driving the cycle of poverty in America, regardless of race.
 
How so? Refute it point by point. All that I have read is factual. Are you disputing the facts?
In the tweets quoted in that article, does Hannah-Jones attack the validity her critic's arguments or merely dismiss them based on the color of their skin?
 
This is worth a read as it speaks to the larger issue of how CRT and CRT-inspired works are defended:

Any right-winger who even references CRT is a sheep person, to be generous. It wasn't a thing until a bunch of right-wingers decided to make it a thing and feed it to their troglodytic-lemming base. When this is done, you'll open wide and be fed another talking point. It's soooo easy to get you people riled up in unison. It's been suspected that QAnon was started by some anonymous loser on Twitter.

image+1.jpg


And these are the so-called free-thinking people? *snickers*
 
Any right-winger who even references CRT is a sheep person, to be generous. It wasn't a thing until a bunch of right-wingers decided to make it a thing and feed it to their troglodytic-lemming base. When this is done, you'll open wide and be fed another talking point. It's soooo easy to get you people riled up in unison. It's been suspected that QAnon was started by some anonymous loser on Twitter.

image+1.jpg


And these are the so-called free-thinking people? *snickers*
Your post is idiotic.
 
Any right-winger who even references CRT is a sheep person, to be generous. It wasn't a thing until a bunch of right-wingers decided to make it a thing and feed it to their troglodytic-lemming base. When this is done, you'll open wide and be fed another talking point. It's soooo easy to get you people riled up in unison. It's been suspected that QAnon was started by some anonymous loser on Twitter.



And these are the so-called free-thinking people? *snickers*

Are you implying that telling a white first grader they are an oppressor is not CRT? Rufo is 100% correct that it is CRT.
 
No, it's 100% bullshit. You're not here to have a reasonable debate. You're here to insult others.

The discussion you want to have is predicated on CRT not being a function of right-wing sheeple hysteria.
 
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