The 13 words you can’t write about Hillary Clinton anymore[W:162]

[Ockham]

Re: The 13 words you can’t write about Hillary Clinton anymore

I adhere to the accepted definition of communism, and Id also love for you to start a capitalist society that doesn't benefit a select few and doesn't divide people horrendously, get back to me when you do. I'm not expecting Americans to, when did I say this?

Classism occurs regardless of the ideology. It is human nature and no ideology will deter greed or power. In order for power to work some must have it where others cannot. Surely you see the link between money, influence and power - it's described well for what - four thousand maybe five thousand years? To indicate that some utopian and yet untried version of Communism could remove what is human nature is as great a fairy tale as Grim or Andersen only could have dreamed to write.

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

Re: The 13 words you can’t write about Hillary Clinton anymore

Lenin's policies, apart from his encouragement of violence, were successful, in my opinion.

You cant cherry pick reality. Lenin's violence were realized by how communism gave him the power to act.

 

[Dovkan]

The 13 words you can’t write about Hillary Clinton anymore

You cant cherry pick reality. Lenin's violence were realized by how communism gave him the power to act.

Communism wasn't even a part of Lenin's time over Russia, and Lenin wasn't even that bad, apart from his kill lists. Universal healthcare? Gay rights? Abortion rights? Thanks Lenin. But that's another point entirely. Are you including the Bolshevik revolution in this?

 

[Dovkan]

The 13 words you can’t write about Hillary Clinton anymore

Classism occurs regardless of the ideology. It is human nature and no ideology will deter greed or power. In order for power to work some must have it where others cannot. Surely you see the link between money, influence and power - it's described well for what - four thousand maybe five thousand years? To indicate that some utopian and yet untried version of Communism could remove what is human nature is as great a fairy tale as Grim or Andersen only could have dreamed to write.

Classism based on capital occurs under capitalism, Im not sure what other classism you'd be referring to if communism was actually implemented, classism based on ??? Yes, just like its human nature for our ancestors hunting and gathering, without a concept of wealth, to live in communities focused on helping each other. I agree, human nature is a tricky subject, I'd recommend reading Marx's perspective, along with some other Marxist writers, to gather a sense of my perspective. Yeah, I agree, money is linked to power and influence, which is horrible, thanks for that. It's not removing human nature, it is removing social classes BASED ON WEALTH while giving the means of production to the people, not a select few who use it for profit.

 

[Ockham]

Re: The 13 words you can’t write about Hillary Clinton anymore

Classism based on capital occurs under capitalism, Im not sure what other classism you'd be referring to if communism was actually implemented. Yes, just like its human nature for our ancestors hunting and gathering, without a concept of wealth, to life in communities focused on helping each other. I agree, human nature is a tricky subject, I'd recommend reading Marx's perspective, along with some other Marxist writers. Yeah, I agree, money is linked to power and influence, which is horrible, thanks for that. It's not removing human nature, it is removing social classes BASED ON WEALTH while giving the means of production to the people, not a select few who use it for profit.

I already read Marx's position a long time ago which was as I said, utopian and defies human nature in favor of structure and fairness. One of the reasons Marx's views has never been tried is because human nature always derails such a thing. Marxism is in direct conflict with human nature - humans have not yet evolved mentally beyond such rudimentary instincts, which is why it fails. We are very much like our hunter gatherer selves and while society provides a safe construct which dulls those instincts they still exist and it does not take much for them to come blundering out. A system and ideology which harnesses human nature and does not fight it but uses it is preferred and that would not be Communism.

 

[Mycroft]

Re: The 13 words you can’t write about Hillary Clinton anymore

I adhere to the accepted definition of communism, and Id also love for you to start a capitalist society that doesn't benefit a select few and doesn't divide people based on the amount of capital they have, and also a capitalist society that feeds all of its citizens no matter there capital, get back to me when you do. I'm not expecting Americans to, when did I say this? I mean, the whole idea of owning production for profit is disgusting, but whatever, shameless plug for that.

Yes...human nature is disgusting and needs to be changed. By force, if necessary.

:roll:

 

[Dovkan]

Re: The 13 words you can’t write about Hillary Clinton anymore

I already read Marx's position a long time ago which was as I said, utopian and defies human nature in favor of structure and fairness. One of the reasons Marx's views has never been tried is because human nature always derails such a thing. Marxism is in direct conflict with human nature - humans have not yet evolved mentally beyond such rudimentary instincts, which is why it fails. We are very much like our hunter gatherer selves and while society provides a safe construct which dulls those instincts they still exist and it does not take much for them to come blundering out. A system and ideology which harnesses human nature and does not fight it but uses it is preferred and that would not be Communism.

Has it been human nature to amass capital? I agree, human nature is complex, which is why communism is simply no state, the proletarians owning the means of production, no capital.. Yes, human nature will always exist, which is why I mentioned other Marxist writers take on the issue, competitiveness won't ever be removed, but in regards to capital, that aspect won't exist under communism.

 

[Dovkan]

The 13 words you can’t write about Hillary Clinton anymore

Yes...human nature is disgusting and needs to be changed. By force, if necessary.

:roll:

It's human nature for several people to own the production of what we all rely on? This is new to me, sounds like capitalism. When did I mention by force?

 

[Mycroft]

Re: The 13 words you can’t write about Hillary Clinton anymore

It's human nature for several people to own the production of what we all rely on? This is new to me, sounds like capitalism. When did I mention by force?

It's human nature for people to decide to produce things other people want...for a profit.

I mentioned force because that's the only way you'll get people to change their nature.

 

[Dovkan]

The 13 words you can’t write about Hillary Clinton anymore

It's human nature for people to decide to produce things other people want...for a profit.

I mentioned force because that's the only way you'll get people to change their nature.

Not at all, human nature is simply a concept, in my view, that can change, and that has changed because there is no set description of what it is. Wait, you're seeming to imply that capitalism is human nature, which is a ridiculous point, Fascists claimed to know human nature, again, I would recommend more modern writings on the subject. Also, " by force" is ludicrous, you can change "human nature" with education and awareness.

 

[Ockham]

Re: The 13 words you can’t write about Hillary Clinton anymore

Has it been human nature to amass capital?

Yes. Humans are naturally aggressive and ambitious. They seek to rule others not to be ruled. The bible describes human nature in an attempt to identify the flaws of human kind which is why the text is still relevant today. Christianity's goal is to blunt the darker parts of human nature - to educate the religious into identifying those dark parts and through parables describe a better way. There has been no ideology, no government method in which an elite did not rule over the masses - where all had the same power, the same wealth, the same anything. There have always been the haves and the have nots, the powerful and the weak, the ambitious and the unassuming. No ideology can control this, tried or untried. If it were possible it would have been tried by now.

I agree, human nature is complex, which is why communism is simply no state, the proletarians owning the means of production, no capital.. Yes, human nature will always exist, which is why I mentioned other Marxist writers take on the issue, competitiveness won't ever be removed, but in regards to capital, that aspect won't exist under communism.

Which is why it's never been tried - capital and the means of production if held by a central government will give way to corruption, greed and the darkest parts of human nature. Marxism makes assumptions ab out human nature and is the variable, wild card, which is not well represented.

Getting back to Hillary (which is the purpose of this thread) power, money and ambition is what Hillary and her husband have always stood for. They would be part of a ruling class and have what is being described as a dynasty with the Bush's over the past two decades. Power, money, influence - those are the things that matter. Ideology in this the modern world, is I fear a red herring.

 

[Dovkan]

Re: The 13 words you can’t write about Hillary Clinton anymore

Yes. Humans are naturally aggressive and ambitious. They seek to rule others not to be ruled. The bible describes human nature in an attempt to identify the flaws of human kind which is why the text is still relevant today. Christianity's goal is to blunt the darker parts of human nature - to educate the religious into identifying those dark parts and through parables describe a better way. There has been no ideology, no government method in which an elite did not rule over the masses - where all had the same power, the same wealth, the same anything. There have always been the haves and the have nots, the powerful and the weak, the ambitious and the unassuming. No ideology can control this, tried or untried. If it were possible it would have been tried by now.

Which is why it's never been tried - capital and the means of production if held by a central government will give way to corruption, greed and the darkest parts of human nature. Marxism makes assumptions ab out human nature and is the variable, wild card, which is not well represented.

Getting back to Hillary (which is the purpose of this thread) power, money and ambition is what Hillary and her husband have always stood for. They would be part of a ruling class and have what is being described as a dynasty with the Bush's over the past two decades. Power, money, influence - those are the things that matter. Ideology in this the modern world, is I fear a red herring.

Under communism, no one is ruled, first of all, and I agree humans are naturally aggressive, In a sense, but not to the point of amassing capital which is caused by capitalism. Don't see the relevance of the bible, as human nature is completely subjective, hitler claimed to know human nature, is he wrong? What basis do you have that he is wrong? I don't attempt to adhere to any set description of human nature, as it is prone to change, in my view. You fail to realize it has been attempted, but what we're left with are socialist states, I believe Lenin could have gotten close, but communism can never exist if capitalism exists. The ideology looks to control the prospect of one having more wealth then another, remove the state, give production to everyone... It may have flaws, but it's a hell of a better idea then capitalism. You know who else makes assumptions about human nature? Everyone who talks about it. No one can truly know.

 

[Fiddytree]

Re: The 13 words you can’t write about Hillary Clinton anymore

The comical insecurities of a communist, aside, "power, money, and ambition" are quite justifiable pursuits for the politician. I'm presuming that Okham to some extent disagrees, but perhaps he does not.

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

Re: The 13 words you can’t write about Hillary Clinton anymore

No, it does not. These aren't assumptions, even when politicians get into office, they are influenced, many controlled, coerced. Of course not all are bought, but it's no question that those with capital have remarkable influence. Also, Lenin commented on this, not marx. I adhere that capitalism is an evil system and encourages the division of people, but that's my opinion.

You are funny and either ignorant of Lenin policies or wantonly being dishonest. Vladimir Lenin was the father of state capitalism.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1921/oct/17.htm

"We must face this issue squarely—who will come out on top? Either the capitalists succeed in organising first—in which case they will drive out the Communists and that will be the end of it. Or the proletarian state power, with the support of the peasantry, will prove capable of keeping a proper rein on those gentlemen, the capitalists, so as to direct capitalism along state channels and to create a capitalism that will be subordinate to the state and serve the state." V. I. Lenin 17 October, 1921

Communism was failing and Lenin used capitalism to rescue it from its death.

 

[SlevinKelevra]

Re: The 13 words you can’t write about Hillary Clinton anymore

The 13 words you can’t write about Hillary Clinton anymore - The Washington Post





There you have it...criticism of Hillary=code speak for sexism. Who says the left seeks to control language for its own ends? :doh

wow, neither the author nor the OP can count.
shameful.

 

[Fearandloathing]

Re: The 13 words you can’t write about Hillary Clinton anymore

As I respect your opinions, it's rare to engage in discussion regarding communism like this, I'd love to continue.

Well please do it on a thread about communism.

This thread is about Hillary Clinton, and unless you are saying she's a communist, stop the propaganda

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

Re: The 13 words you can’t write about Hillary Clinton anymore

Communism wasn't even a part of Lenin's time over Russia, and Lenin wasn't even that bad, apart from his kill lists. Universal healthcare? Gay rights? Abortion rights? Thanks Lenin. But that's another point entirely. Are you including the Bolshevik revolution in this?

Yes yes I know the world has never seen true Communism blah blah blah. And so called true Communism will never exist because Karl Marx was too ignorant to realize that his predictions were completely naive. The path that Marx set for the transition into Communism will always lead to your Lenin's/Stalin's/ Castro's/Chavez's because Marx devised a system that removes any real freedoms and liberties at a early stage then depends on those with the power to dictate the revolution to give those freedoms and liberties back at a later stage. But they never relinquish their power until they die. And those that dont follow along become victims of those that support the revolution. history is wrought with examples, you can either learn from them or blindly make new examples of Karl Marx's ill wrought philosophy. How many dictators does it take to realize that Marxism is a failure of theory? Ask yourself why hasnt there ever been true Socialism that evolved to true Communism? Its been 167 years since The Communist Manifesto was published, yet not once has it been followed by any meaningful territory. Just example after example of those that exploited it for profit. Ironic.

 

[US Conservative]

Re: The 13 words you can’t write about Hillary Clinton anymore

Yeah. It reminds me of when Gwen Ifill hosted the vice presidential debate between Palin and Biden. Conservatives like yourself pre-emptively complained so that when Sarah Palin lost the debate you could claim that the host was biased.

That's what you're doing now. You're pre-emptively complaining about Hillary Clinton so that when you lose you can say there was bias.

Not really, its a given that theres bias-everyone knows it. Its just nice to display it for all. Its just part of Hillarys charm you see.

 

[US Conservative]

Re: The 13 words you can’t write about Hillary Clinton anymore

Republicans eat their children for lunch. Rove and McCain already have identified Cruz and Paul as nutcases. Democrats don't even need the leftist media, the crucifixion of Republicans is internal.

Rove and McCain are establishment Republicans. Cruz and Paul are newcomers, and more conservative. There will always be strife there, compare Clinton to Warren for another example.

 

[US Conservative]

Re: The 13 words you can’t write about Hillary Clinton anymore

You do realize the USSR was extremely industrial with almost everyone working and that's one of the worst examples of state socialism, although stalinism played a part in this. You need to read some Marxist literature on human nature to see my perspective, yes, we are competitive, but capitalism makes us competitive over silly things, such as acquiring more capital then another, owning a Lamborghini.. You're not prevented from seeking better, unless you consider capital as seeking better. You do realize people do put in work in societies with state socialism, more so then in a capitalist society. That is why the means of production should be owned by the workers. You keep saying non producing :roll: which doesn't even hold true to socialist states, let alone the non existent communist countries people try to talk about.

The USSR eventually became more industrial, but it always lacked behind the wests industry. Compare the quality of soviet goods, the innovation and technology of communist industry-to the wests.

Frankly, much of the communist "tech" was stolen western designs. Not respecting the intellectual property of others is just part of the commie charm.

 

[US Conservative]

Re: The 13 words you can’t write about Hillary Clinton anymore

You are funny and either ignorant of Lenin policies or wantonly being dishonest. Vladimir Lenin was the father of state capitalism.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1921/oct/17.htm

"We must face this issue squarely—who will come out on top? Either the capitalists succeed in organising first—in which case they will drive out the Communists and that will be the end of it. Or the proletarian state power, with the support of the peasantry, will prove capable of keeping a proper rein on those gentlemen, the capitalists, so as to direct capitalism along state channels and to create a capitalism that will be subordinate to the state and serve the state." V. I. Lenin 17 October, 1921

Communism was failing and Lenin used capitalism to rescue it from its death.

That is absolutely true, in the 1920's, facing a complete collapse of the communist govt, ole lenin was forced to adopt free market policies, and they helped stabilize the economy.

Gotta love an ideology that claims to be right but has to adopt its competitors ideology when the cards are (invariably) down.

 

[US Conservative]

Re: The 13 words you can’t write about Hillary Clinton anymore

wow, neither the author nor the OP can count.
shameful.

Lolz at failure to substantively address the article or op.

 

[US Conservative]

Re: The 13 words you can’t write about Hillary Clinton anymore

Yes yes I know the world has never seen true Communism blah blah blah. And so called true Communism will never exist because Karl Marx was too ignorant to realize that his predictions were completely naive. The path that Marx set for the transition into Communism will always lead to your Lenin's/Stalin's/ Castro's/Chavez's because Marx devised a system that removes any real freedoms and liberties at a early stage then depends on those with the power to dictate the revolution to give those freedoms and liberties back at a later stage. But they never relinquish their power until they die. And those that dont follow along become victims of those that support the revolution. history is wrought with examples, you can either learn from them or blindly make new examples of Karl Marx's ill wrought philosophy. How many dictators does it take to realize that Marxism is a failure of theory? Ask yourself why hasnt there ever been true Socialism that evolved to true Communism? Its been 167 years since The Communist Manifesto was published, yet not once has it been followed by any meaningful territory. Just example after example of those that exploited it for profit. Ironic.

Communism is a dated ideology of failure.

 

[SlevinKelevra]

Re: The 13 words you can’t write about Hillary Clinton anymore

Lolz at failure to substantively address the article or op.

lulz at taking ANY article seriously that writes this

So these words are now off the table: "polarizing," "calculating," "disingenuous," "insincere," "ambitious," "inevitable," "entitled," "over-confident," "secretive," "will do anything to win," "represents the past," and "out of touch." Also apparently off the table: "tone deaf" -- at least according to a new Twitter account that appears to be from the group:

and comes to the conclusion that 13 words is an appropriate description.

 

[US Conservative]

Re: The 13 words you can’t write about Hillary Clinton anymore

lulz at taking ANY article seriously that writes this


and comes to the conclusion that 13 words is an appropriate description.

The article merely cited a hillary support group.

Care to address that or are you now going to spell check the thread?