The "1-round stopping power" debate.

[tech30528]

Caliber matters.

Some calibers flat out suck at creating incapacitating wounds... 25 acp for instance.

Some are better at it than others, such as .357 JHP and .45 acp. Quality hollowpoints are typically better than ball or lead in most situations.

Multiple hits are more effective than singular hits yes... but ultimately shot placement is key.

So, in my hierarchy...

1. Shot placement
2. Number of shots on target, preferably well-placed.
3. Caliber.

Not to say caliber is UNimportant just because it comes in last... they are all important. If you're using at least .38+P or better (357, 9mm, .40, 45) then this hierarchy is pretty much correct IMO. OTOH if you're using .380 or .32 or .22LR, you're using a caliber whose ability to consistently penetrate the inner body cavity and put a substantial hole in something vital is IFFY.... and caliber becomes more important.

Best of all... if possible, use a long gun. Their firepower is far greater than any handgun of comparable caliber, and their accuracy as well. About the only exception is confined spaces and close quarters, or where your piece must be concealed or carrying a long gun would be otherwise unfeasible.

Caliber can count. Number of shots on target does mean a lot. The 22s I'm using are 1470 fps advertised and verified by me with a chronograph. When you are seeing 10mm holes in the third layer of steel that round is definitely tearing up some internals. Got some right here on my desk, average 38 of the original 40 grains and consistently 10mm sharp edged discs. I'm certainly not stepping out with a subsonic hollowpoint that I haven't tested. I have a 32cal pistol as well, solids for me, hollowpoints in that caliber lack penetrating power. I'd prefer my 22 carbine over my 32 pistol. Faster, higher capacity and proven punch.

 

[LaMidRighter]

well some cougars only chase young men but the four legged kind won't take near the punishment a bear will. a 22 LR through the lungs usually is curtains for a puma while some bears-you best have a 12 g slug or a 300 W M

Well, the cougars that like 'em younger are fine by me. The four legged ones ambush which is a bit of a problem but they aren't that tough against firearms, bears looking for food...........yeah, go big or get out of the danger zone.

EDIT - Once I get caught up I want to go on some big bear(Kodiak/Brown/Grizzly) hunts and bigger species like elk, I'm looking into a Weatherby chambered for .338 Lapua right now.

 

[TurtleDude]

Well, the cougars that like 'em younger are fine by me. The four legged ones ambush which is a bit of a problem but they aren't that tough against firearms, bears looking for food...........yeah, go big or get out of the danger zone.

EDIT - Once I get caught up I want to go on some big bear(Kodiak/Brown/Grizzly) hunts and bigger species like elk, I'm looking into a Weatherby chambered for .338 Lapua right now.

338 W M is probably a better choice. It has replaced the old standard 30-06 as the king of big game cartridges in the western USA.

 

[LaMidRighter]

338 W M is probably a better choice. It has replaced the old standard 30-06 as the king of big game cartridges in the western USA.

That's what I was thinking, 30-06 and .308 are great for things that run away, but if I'm looking at something that big, that fast, and that angry the round had better be great.

 

[falcata]

Which would, in most cases, be self defense.

Difference; A law enforcement official knowingly goes into these situations and is a paid and highly trained professonial. A civilians are caught in these situations by chance and just because there is a remote chance they may be caught in one of these situtions does not put them on the same level as law enforcement who knowinly go into these situations almost if not everyday.

Yes if you want to be technical law enforcement officials do use their weapons in self defense, but they put themselves in these situations knowinly. Much different than a civilian that by chance ended up in the situation.

 

[elalumno]

Difference; A law enforcement official knowingly goes into these situations and is a paid and highly trained professonial. A civilians are caught in these situations by chance and just because there is a remote chance they may be caught in one of these situtions does not put them on the same level as law enforcement who knowinly go into these situations almost if not everyday.

Yes if you want to be technical law enforcement officials do use their weapons in self defense, but they put themselves in these situations knowinly. Much different than a civilian that by chance ended up in the situation.

You're picking nits quite frankly. A citizen has just as much right to self defense as an officer does.

 

[falcata]

You're picking nits quite frankly. A citizen has just as much right to self defense as an officer does.

There is no nit picking about it.

I'm making a statement saying that there is a distinct difference between an officer of the law and an everyday citizen when it comes to an encounter with a dangerous criminal. One is a trained professional that knowingly and willingly confronts these criminals, another could be anybody who just has been caught by circumstance. I don't believe that having much of the population armed at all times makes these situations decrease in occurance, I believe an have reason to suspect that these occurences would escalate.

I have nothing against guns altogether. I do sincerly believe however that a society that is so ever constantly armed as our society is not a safe society. An armed society is a dangerous society.

For the sake of sticking to the topic of the thread I'll cease posting on this topic

 

[TurtleDude]

Difference; A law enforcement official knowingly goes into these situations and is a paid and highly trained professonial. A civilians are caught in these situations by chance and just because there is a remote chance they may be caught in one of these situtions does not put them on the same level as law enforcement who knowinly go into these situations almost if not everyday.

Yes if you want to be technical law enforcement officials do use their weapons in self defense, but they put themselves in these situations knowinly. Much different than a civilian that by chance ended up in the situation.

lots of fail in this post

I will start

Highly trained? maybe maybe not. the average cop is a poor shot and spends less than 200 rounds a year in practice. that is what my kid shoots in a day's practice. which is probably why he beats most of the cops at the gun club

cops usually instigate the contact with criminals. (Like felony warrant arrests etc). meaning the cops pick the time and the place for the confrontation. other civilians almost never do. they, unlike cops don't have backup either or two way radios. So that suggests us non LEO civilians ought to have at least the same weapons as cops who tend to have far better odds when dealing with criminals.

 

[TurtleDude]

You're picking nits quite frankly. A citizen has just as much right to self defense as an officer does.

and a civilian almost never has the advantage of initiating the confrontation

 

[blaxshep]

Difference; A law enforcement official knowingly goes into these situations and is a paid and highly trained professonial. A civilians are caught in these situations by chance and just because there is a remote chance they may be caught in one of these situtions does not put them on the same level as law enforcement who knowinly go into these situations almost if not everyday.

Yes if you want to be technical law enforcement officials do use their weapons in self defense, but they put themselves in these situations knowinly. Much different than a civilian that by chance ended up in the situation.

Which is exactly why civilians shoud not be short cahnged on their self defense.

 

[TurtleDude]

Which is exactly why civilians shoud not be short cahnged on their self defense.

the antis lose either way

if they claim that cops are better trained that suggests cops need LESS rounds

if they claim that civilians are in a situation they didn't start or instigate that again suggests a civilian needs more rounds

and if they claim civilians cannot be trusted with guns, the same is true for cops. cops aren't somehow smarter or more responsible than doctors, lawyers, postal clerks, convenience store operators etc and the rate of crime among cops is not any different than other people who have clean records at the age people join the PD.

 

[American]

again it all depends where hits are

btw the Evan Marshall studies indicated that the single best stopper out of a pistol was a 125 grain JHP 357 magnum

Wow, that's what I have.

 

[TurtleDude]

Wow, that's what I have.

I have an IDF made Timberwolf which is a 357 pump gun. Not an assault rifle but one nasty self defense weapon. out of that 16 inch barrel the round gains a fair bit more speed. ten shots you can crank in under 3 seconds and its not likely to get DIFI to have a cow (yet)

 

[American]

I have a CHL and I carry either my Sig P239 9mm or S&W .380 Bodyguard depends on where I am going. I have confidence in either weapon. At home I have a Winchester Defender 12 gauge close at hand. I keep it loaded with 3" magnum 00 buckshot. the buckshot has over 1500 ft/lbs of close range terminal energy. As far as one round stopping power goes probably my choice would be the .357 magnum.

small frame .357 Mag

 

[ric27]

lots of fail in this post

I will start

Highly trained? maybe maybe not. the average cop is a poor shot and spends less than 200 rounds a year in practice. that is what my kid shoots in a day's practice. which is probably why he beats most of the cops at the gun club

cops usually instigate the contact with criminals. (Like felony warrant arrests etc). meaning the cops pick the time and the place for the confrontation. other civilians almost never do. they, unlike cops don't have backup either or two way radios. So that suggests us non LEO civilians ought to have at least the same weapons as cops who tend to have far better odds when dealing with criminals.

While that may be true...about, the average cop being or is a poor shot

However, shooting skill and gun fighting are two completely different animals

 

[American]

I have an IDF made Timberwolf which is a 357 pump gun. Not an assault rifle but one nasty self defense weapon. out of that 16 inch barrel the round gains a fair bit more speed. ten shots you can crank in under 3 seconds and its not likely to get DIFI to have a cow (yet)

I have a .357 revolver, that I plan on turning into an Assault revolver by painting it black, and tape a laser to the short barrel to make it look scary.

 

[TurtleDude]

While that may be true...about, the average cop being or is a poor shot

However, shooting skill and gun fighting are two completely different animals

true but DOJ statistics prove non LEOs are more likely to hit the bad guy and less likely to hit innocents

 

[elalumno]

There is no nit picking about it.

I'm making a statement saying that there is a distinct difference between an officer of the law and an everyday citizen when it comes to an encounter with a dangerous criminal. One is a trained professional that knowingly and willingly confronts these criminals, another could be anybody who just has been caught by circumstance. I don't believe that having much of the population armed at all times makes these situations decrease in occurance, I believe an have reason to suspect that these occurences would escalate.

I have nothing against guns altogether. I do sincerly believe however that a society that is so ever constantly armed as our society is not a safe society. An armed society is a dangerous society.

For the sake of sticking to the topic of the thread I'll cease posting on this topic

That LEOs knowingly and willingly confront criminals is immaterial, as the issue is the right to self defense and that does not change based on one's profession. It may increase the need for it, but the right does not change.

I will also point out the despite there being more guns out there, more gun sales than ever before and that 49 out of 50 states allow concealed carry, violent crime and gun crime are way down.

 

[blaxshep]

While that may be true...about, the average cop being or is a poor shot

However, shooting skill and gun fighting are two completely different animals

It is all about practice, there are cops that pump out a thousand round a month and those that barly get the 300 a year minimum which is no different then civilian gun enthusiests. The antis like to assume that just because someone is a LEO that they are highly trained and just because someone is a civilian he is a bungeling moron that, if armed, is nothing less than a danger to everyone around him.