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The “anything is possible” logical fallacy

An omnipotent god could could create a rock so heavy he cannot lift it.

That is the most basic and most used of contradictions when dealing with gods.

There are many ways around this, of course. One is to define "omnipotence" in such a way that creating logical contradictions is not a part of it (and really, if you think about it, creating logical contradictions may not really be a limit on an omnipotent being's power). Another, that most pantheistic religions follow, is that no god is omnipotent.

The point would be that you as an atheist might not be asking to believe in a god. But theists do. And the onus is always on them to give a good reason.

Absolutely. I'm just saying that they are possible. Just as many, many things are possible that we have absolutely no reason to believe in...like Santa and wood fairies.
 
Or Santa Claus or a wood fairy or any other figment of human imagination.
There is perhaps a chance that one Christmas over next five trillion years probably will have Santa delivering gifts on a sleigh.
 
Then count me out. Not a bit of evidence for any of them. I prefer to live in a world of reality rather than figments of human imagination.

Heh...I'm not asking you to believe in them... Merely to allow for their possibility. And that you realize that your personal experience and knowledge is not the limit of what can possibly be true.
 
Heh...I'm not asking you to believe in them... Merely to allow for their possibility. And that you realize that your personal experience and knowledge is not the limit of what can possibly be true.

I do not allow for their possibility because their is not an iota of objective, reality-based evidence for any of these figments of human imagination. I prefer to live in the world of reality:

But let's examine this again in terms of the "appeal to possibility" . First, let's take a look at the description given in the website that was cited in the OP: "When a conclusion is assumed not because it is probably true or it has not been demonstrated to be impossible, but because it is possible that it is true, no matter how improbable."

Look at that last phrase: "...because it is POSSIBLE that it is true, NO MATTER HOW IMPROBABLE."
I'm not going to go back and search for your exact words, but it does seem to me that they were very close to that phraseology in regards to your claim that a "God" "is possible".
Again, I;m concentrating on the description and not the examples, we can do that later.
Tell me, given that description, how your claim that a god or gods "is possible but highly improbable" is not an appeal to possibility. I have to tell you, that sure sounds like an appeal to possibility that fits right into the given description.

But then you state that your particular claim does not conform to the examples given. I have already said that those two examples are probably not all that there are or could be. But you go on to say that what you are claiming that your version is: " If a god or gods are possible, then a god or gods are possible" or "if a god or gods is possible, then a god or gods is not impossible". How is that not classic circular reasoning: it is because it is! And that's what believers always say about their God--he is because I have faith that he is.

So to summarize, you are welcome to continue to give the agnostic-based argument that a god or gods "is possible", but that appears to me to be a classic appeal to possibility. I prefer to stick to an appeal to evidence.
 
But irrelevant. Just because you think something couldn't possibly exist doesn't mean it can't exist. It could be that it CAN exist, but you don't know it.

If they "can" exist, then it is "possible" that they exist. Sounds like yet another appeal to possibility.
 
Unless I misunderstand the theory, "anything being possible" is a quantum mechanical fact. Given enough time and coin flips, the coin will not only land on its edge. The coin will disappear in mid air or turn into two coins and land on both heads and tails at the same time.

Of course, most of the more obscure events have probabilities so low that they require a time frame of 100x or more of the universe's age to occur.
No, it's not. In fact, there are things that quantum mechanics say is impossible. For example, in QM, it specially says you can not violate the various conservation laws.
 
I do not allow for their possibility because their is not an iota of objective, reality-based evidence for any of these figments of human imagination. I prefer to live in the world of reality:

But let's examine this again in terms of the "appeal to possibility" . First, let's take a look at the description given in the website that was cited in the OP: "When a conclusion is assumed not because it is probably true or it has not been demonstrated to be impossible, but because it is possible that it is true, no matter how improbable."

Look at that last phrase: "...because it is POSSIBLE that it is true, NO MATTER HOW IMPROBABLE."
I'm not going to go back and search for your exact words, but it does seem to me that they were very close to that phraseology in regards to your claim that a "God" "is possible".
Again, I;m concentrating on the description and not the examples, we can do that later.
Tell me, given that description, how your claim that a god or gods "is possible but highly improbable" is not an appeal to possibility. I have to tell you, that sure sounds like an appeal to possibility that fits right into the given description.

But then you state that your particular claim does not conform to the examples given. I have already said that those two examples are probably not all that there are or could be. But you go on to say that what you are claiming that your version is: " If a god or gods are possible, then a god or gods are possible" or "if a god or gods is possible, then a god or gods is not impossible". How is that not classic circular reasoning: it is because it is! And that's what believers always say about their God--he is because I have faith that he is.

So to summarize, you are welcome to continue to give the agnostic-based argument that a god or gods "is possible", but that appears to me to be a classic appeal to possibility. I prefer to stick to an appeal to evidence.
When trying to say God is possible or not possible, I want a testable definition for 'what is god.' Can you come up with a scientific model for what God is?

If you can't, then, well, it's just word salad, and the 'anything is possible' claim involving God is semantically meaningless.
 
I do not allow for their possibility because their is not an iota of objective, reality-based evidence for any of these figments of human imagination. I prefer to live in the world of reality:

But let's examine this again in terms of the "appeal to possibility" . First, let's take a look at the description given in the website that was cited in the OP: "When a conclusion is assumed not because it is probably true or it has not been demonstrated to be impossible, but because it is possible that it is true, no matter how improbable."

Look at that last phrase: "...because it is POSSIBLE that it is true, NO MATTER HOW IMPROBABLE."
I'm not going to go back and search for your exact words, but it does seem to me that they were very close to that phraseology in regards to your claim that a "God" "is possible".

Yes, lets look at the description: "When a conclusion is assumed not because it is probably true or it has not been demonstrated to be impossible, but because it is possible that it is true, no matter how improbable."

"When a conclusion is assumed" -- do you understand what it means to assume a conclusion? It means, as the logical forms bear out, that the conclusion is assumed to be true (or probably true) and not just possibly true.

So, again, you're using this logical fallacy wrong.

What I have argued shouldn't be controversial. I have argued things like,

"If it's possible, then it's not true that it can't exist"
The logical form of that statement would be something like, "If X then -(-X)"

That isn't a logical contradiction and your Appeal to Possibility in no way makes the claim that it's a fallacy.

Again, I;m concentrating on the description and not the examples, we can do that later.
Tell me, given that description, how your claim that a god or gods "is possible but highly improbable" is not an appeal to possibility. I have to tell you, that sure sounds like an appeal to possibility that fits right into the given description.

It's "possible, but highly improbable" that I will ever win the lottery. You are claiming that statement is an appeal to possibility fallacy and that it's not possible to win the lottery?

But then you state that your particular claim does not conform to the examples given. I have already said that those two examples are probably not all that there are or could be.

Of course not. But you realize that both of the examples follow the logical forms? Do you think that is coincidence?

But you go on to say that what you are claiming that your version is: " If a god or gods are possible, then a god or gods are possible" or "if a god or gods is possible, then a god or gods is not impossible". How is that not classic circular reasoning: it is because it is! And that's what believers always say about their God--he is because I have faith that he is.

Er...I don't think you understand what circular reasoning is.

X, therefore X
and
X, therefore -(-X)
are not examples of circular reasoning.

I would say that they aren't very interesting statements and should be fairly obvious.

Circular reasoning would be something like:
If A then B
If B then A

If the thunder god is pissing, rain happens.
You see! It's raining! If it's raining, the thunder god must be pissing!

So to summarize, you are welcome to continue to give the agnostic-based argument that a god or gods "is possible", but that appears to me to be a classic appeal to possibility. I prefer to stick to an appeal to evidence.

I really wish you had the capacity to truly examine the arguments that you're making. Good luck!
 
If they "can" exist, then it is "possible" that they exist. Sounds like yet another appeal to possibility.

So, anyone saying anything is "possible", according to you, is a logical fallacy.

It's possible that it will rain tomorrow. Appeal to Possibility fallacy!
 
When trying to say God is possible or not possible, I want a testable definition for 'what is god.' Can you come up with a scientific model for what God is?

If you can't, then, well, it's just word salad, and the 'anything is possible' claim involving God is semantically meaningless.

So, according to you, things cannot exist unless you have a testable definition for their existence?

Before we discovered black holes, did they possibly exist? Or, does their existence hinge on your comprehension of them?
 
So, according to you, things cannot exist unless you have a testable definition for their existence?

Before we discovered black holes, did they possibly exist? Or, does their existence hinge on your comprehension of them?

Comparing the supernatural to the natural in analogy simply never works. Now that we have discovered black holes, their existence is indeed testable. On the other hand, “God” has been “discovered” for millennia now without the slightest bit of objective, reality-based evidence to support it. How on Earth could this “God” ever be tested? How do you test a figment of human imagination ?
 
really wish you had the capacity to truly examine the arguments that you're making. Good luck!

I really wish that you understood that ad hom does not in any way support the arguments that you are making. Quite the opposite, it is a sign of the weakness of YOUR arguments that you must resort to it, not mine.
 
Comparing the supernatural to the natural in analogy simply never works.

Black holes are pretty freaking crazy. If you were to talk about them before we had the math to explain them, they would seem supernatural, wouldn't they? Does that mean that they wouldn't possibly exist until we had the math to explain them?

Now that we have discovered black holes, their existence is indeed testable.

But, that's not the question. The question was about if they could possibly exist before their existence was testable.

On the other hand, “God” has been “discovered” for millennia now without the slightest bit of objective, reality-based evidence to support it. How on Earth could this “God” ever be tested? How do you test a figment of human imagination ?

Not sure...but the fact that it may not have "reality-based evidence to support it, or even a great way of "testing" it, doesn't necessarily mean it can't possibly exist.
 
I really wish that you understood that ad hom does not in any way support the arguments that you are making. Quite the opposite, it is a sign of the weakness of YOUR arguments that you must resort to it, not mine.

This would work a lot better if I didn't detail out all the ways in which you were wrong....
 
Black holes are pretty freaking crazy. If you were to talk about them before we had the math to explain them, they would seem supernatural, wouldn't they? Does that mean that they wouldn't possibly exist until we had the math to explain them?



But, that's not the question. The question was about if they could possibly exist before their existence was testable.



Not sure...but the fact that it may not have "reality-based evidence to support it, or even a great way of "testing" it, doesn't necessarily mean it can't possibly exist.
 
Not sure...but the fact that it may not have "reality-based evidence to support it, or even a great way of "testing" it, doesn't necessarily mean it can't possibly exist.

You apparently still do not understand what an appeal to possibility is.
 
You apparently still do not understand what an appeal to possibility is.

Er...yeah. I've said from the start that I don't think you understand what it is. I still don't think you do. But, the Appeal to Possibility fallacy aside, your logic is just bad.

I really don't know how you think that the existence of something hinges on your compression of it. It's like small children who play hide-and-seek. They will sometimes think that you can't see them, if they can't see you... That's the same kind of logic as what you're using.
 
There are many ways around this, of course. One is to define "omnipotence" in such a way that creating logical contradictions is not a part of it (and really, if you think about it, creating logical contradictions may not really be a limit on an omnipotent being's power). Another, that most pantheistic religions follow, is that no god is omnipotent.



Absolutely. I'm just saying that they are possible. Just as many, many things are possible that we have absolutely no reason to believe in...like Santa and wood fairies.
No, there really are no ways around contradictions. They are what make a god such an absurd notion.

But why are you saying it? I can understand the usual motivation of simply that a god is nothing more than an excuse to justify some neurotic notion that can not be justified with fact and reason.
 
No, there really are no ways around contradictions. They are what make a god such an absurd notion.

I understand that you don't like it...but that doesn't mean that there aren't ways around it.

But why are you saying it? I can understand the usual motivation of simply that a god is nothing more than an excuse to justify some neurotic notion that can not be justified with fact and reason.

My only motivation is to be look for the truth, whatever that might be.

Part of that is to understand and evaluate the "other side's" arguments. I'm not a believer, but I've seen people try to use the omnipotence logical contradiction argument, and how, logically, they have explained it away. Some of those explanations have been fairly feeble ("God" works in mysterious ways, God isn't subject to the laws of logic that God created, etc). Others, are more persuasive.

Are you invested in your point of view, or are you invested in trying to find out what is actually true, be that it conforms with your current views of the world, or not?
 
I understand that you don't like it...but that doesn't mean that there aren't ways around it.



My only motivation is to be look for the truth, whatever that might be.

Part of that is to understand and evaluate the "other side's" arguments. I'm not a believer, but I've seen people try to use the omnipotence logical contradiction argument, and how, logically, they have explained it away. Some of those explanations have been fairly feeble ("God" works in mysterious ways, God isn't subject to the laws of logic that God created, etc). Others, are more persuasive.

Are you invested in your point of view, or are you invested in trying to find out what is actually true, be that it conforms with your current views of the world, or not?
The ways you suggested so far is easily dismissed. Especially when dealing with christian god which does have the superpower of omni everything.

Then why waste time with an obvious lie?

yet you have not presented one of these more persuasive arguments. Instead you simply shifted the goal post to lesser gods with less powers.

Sure I am interested. But again why am I to waste my time on poorly argued, contradictory belief based on a badly written book.
 
The ways you suggested so far is easily dismissed. Especially when dealing with christian god which does have the superpower of omni everything.

Again, if omnipotence is defined as doing anything logically possible, then there is no logical contradiction.

Then why waste time with an obvious lie?

The existence of a "God" or set of gods is one of the biggest questions that humanity has ever faced. Why not examine things? And why not understand what the other side is saying?

yet you have not presented one of these more persuasive arguments. Instead you simply shifted the goal post to lesser gods with less powers.

Because I'm not so invested in the Christian "God" or your specific view about omnipotence, to believe that is the only possible "supreme being" that could exist.

Sure I am interested. But again why am I to waste my time on poorly argued, contradictory belief based on a badly written book.

Why are you in this discussion forum, then?
 
Again, if omnipotence is defined as doing anything logically possible, then there is no logical contradiction.



The existence of a "God" or set of gods is one of the biggest questions that humanity has ever faced. Why not examine things? And why not understand what the other side is saying?



Because I'm not so invested in the Christian "God" or your specific view about omnipotence, to believe that is the only possible "supreme being" that could exist.



Why are you in this discussion forum, then?
Again a fail when you simply change the definition to suite the lie. Omnipotence is not defined as being only able to do what is only logically possible.

No it is not the biggest question. It is merely one that has been around a long time and is diminishing as we discover that natural forces are at work not an intelligent designer.

If you are going to argue that a god might be possible then please do not tell me you are arguing as an atheist.

To point out how badly the theists argue their case.
 
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