Tawfik Hamid: "The Roots of Jihad"

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Not so much on our side, but certainly they had became extremley unhappy with their leaders and didn't want war anymore.

They didn't want war anymore because we broke their will to fight by killing millions of them.

This was true in conventional 19th/20th century wars. 21st century Guerrila warfare makes that basically impossible. The only notable victory of an occupying power over a homegrown insurgency I can think of was the Malaya emergency in the 50's and that was won precisely because we won hearts and minds.

Ahem:

Unsuccessful campaigns

• Ukrainian nationalist partisans and guerrillas during and after the Russian Civil War
• Makhnovist partisans and guerrillas after the Russian Civil War
• Irish Civil War 1922-23
• IRA S-Plan campaign 1939-1941 Northern Campaign (IRA) 1942-1944 Border Campaign (IRA) 1956-62
• Spanish republican guerrillas after the Spanish Civil War
• Second Boer War 1899-1902
• Greek Civil War
• Malayan Emergency
• Mau Mau Uprising
• Philippine American War 1899-1902
• Poland 1939-1944, unsuccessful until USSR liberation from German occupation
• Tibet 1958-1974, resistance against Chinese occupation ultimately failed when American Central Intelligence Agency withdrew its support in context of President Richard Nixon's diplomatic overtures to the People's Republic of China
• Uruguay 1965-1973, the Tupamaros were suppressed by the army forces that later took power
• Argentina 1969-1981 Montoneros and ERP were suppressed by security forces around 1977
• Dominican Republic US forces suppressed Dominican guerrillas
• Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania 1944-1956, Forest Brothers
• El Salvador Due to the Treaty
• Punjab Insurgency in India

The Nazis regularly did this in their occupations in Eastern Europe, not only did this make them evil, it tended to outrage the local population and provoke more resistance, here's a story from a Polish man under occupation;

On Monday, March 15, during the late evening, between 7 P.M. and 8 P.M., a raid at Rapy took place. The lumber mill and railroad station were burned down. The car of Treubander Becker was shot at. In Rozaniec the new owner of a large farm, a German, was killed. The military barracks were burned down. In retaliation the Germans set the entire village of Rozaniec on fire. More than 800 people were arrested and taken to the barracks in Zwierzyniec, mostly women and children. There is talk of the possibility of freeing those jailed by armed action. We are sure the Germans will begin evacuation action against other villages very soon.

The Nazi Occupation of Poland

Wht would you do if someone did this to your country? Harsh occupation will just bring even harsher resistance and destroy any moral authority America could claim to have.



More ideas from the Nazis huh

The Polish people still helped the home army even after Warsaw was completely demolished by the Nazis.



Good to see you've even started using Nazi terminology

Pacification operations in German-occupied Poland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The number of villages which were an object of pacification in Poland is approximately 825. Collective punishment was used during such operations to discourage both the hiding of Jews or Soviet POWs, and the aiding of any guerilla forces. Pacifications included the extermination of entire villages including women and children, expulsions, the burning of homes, confiscation of private property, and arrests. In many instances these operations were characterized by extreme brutality. An example of such behaviour is the burning alive of 81 civilians and the shooting of 15 others in the village of Jabłoń-Dobki.

When did you stop even pretending America was the good guy Trajan?

I'm a bit dissapointed...

We did the same sh!t in response to the German werewolves after WW2, the French even more than the U.S. and the Russians even more than that, so get off your high horse, this is war it's not a place for "the good guy" victory comes to those who break the enemies will to fight, infact to do anything short of using all the force at your command is immoral because all it does is prolong the conflict as well as the suffering experienced by the civilian population.

 

[TheHonestTruth]

Go to the source itself buddy, it's an endorsement to stay the course:

Thats what they've released to the public, the declassified parts of the report. What else would you expect from it? Do you think they would officially tell us the whole effort in Iraq has been counterproductive? I am literally LOL'ing right now!!

 

[Slainte]

They didn't want war anymore because we broke their will to fight by killing millions of them.

I don't think you can say that there is just one reason for something. Many didn't like the Nazis anyways, they realised they were in a hopeless situation and didn't want to continue the fighting. Also when they realised they were going to be defeted they were much keener on being defeated by the UK/US than Russia. I don't think unneccesarily incinerating helpless and defenceless cities did anything to "break their will"

This was true in conventional 19th/20th century wars. 21st century Guerrila warfare makes that basically impossible. The only notable victory of an occupying power over a homegrown insurgency I can think of was the Malaya emergency in the 50's

I'm not really counting pre-WW2 movements as we lived in a very different world then.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Civil_War

- A civil war.

IRA S-Plan campaign 1939-1941 Northern Campaign (IRA) 1942-1944 Border Campaign (IRA) 1956-62

The UK had a majority which considered itself British here, it's hard to call them an occupying power.

Uruguay 1965-1973, the Tupamaros were suppressed by the army forces that later took power

Argentina 1969-1981 Montoneros and ERP were suppressed by security forces around 1977

El Salvador Due to the Treaty

More civil wars.

Mau Mau Uprising

Don't know much about this, doesn't sound like it was won by large scale collective punishment and mass-murder though. In fact it seems we eventually ended the resentment by making them huge concessions and eventually leaving.

The rest all seem to be from the turn of the century to about the 20's - avery different world then.

We did the same sh!t in response to the German werewolves after WW2, the French even more than the U.S.

Atrocities go along with all occupations, we never made mass-murder an integral part of our policy though.

the Russians even more than that

Stalin did order horrible atrocities committed, good to see you want the US to take after Hitler and Stalin.

this is war it's not a place for "the good guy"

When we invade other countries based on false pretences to "liberate" them I think it's at least appropriate to not go around buring all their towns and killing defenceless civilians becaus some people in that country don't want us there.

to do anything short of using all the force at your command is immoral because all it does is prolong the conflict as well as the suffering experienced by the civilian population.

I think buring civillians out of their villages would make them suffer more than not doing that, I'd rather our forces just left their country.

 

[Khayembii Communique]

furthermore, now they are infact arming the Taliban.

I'd just like to add that this was already thoroughly debunked by me in a discussion (not really a debate, because you can't debate ToT) with ToT some months ago.

Beiruit barracks bombing

There was never proof that either Hizb'allah or Iranians were involved in this.

Brute force is a part of it in our goal to Democratize the Middle East.

:2razz:

This sentence is classic!

 

[Voidwar]

Beirut Barracks bombing

There was never proof that either Hizb'allah or Iranians were involved in this.

But is there really any doubt that it was a Muslim ?

Islam is the problem, not "Terror".

When we admit that, we will start to make real progress.

After Pearl Harbor, we did not declare "War on Aviation" , we declared war on the Japanese.

 

[Khayembii Communique]

After Pearl Harbor, we did not declare "War on Aviation" , we declared war on the Japanese.

Yes, and not Buddhism.

 

[Voidwar]

Yes, and not Buddhism.

Or Shinto, but this is not to the point, because the Japanese Empire was not attacking us in the name of their religion, but in the name of their Nationalism.

Muslims are attacking in the name of their religion, in 40 or so shooting conflicts on earth right now.

 

[Khayembii Communique]

Or Shinto, but this is not to the point, because the Japanese Empire was not attacking us in the name of their religion, but in the name of their Nationalism.

Muslims are attacking in the name of their religion, in 40 or so shooting conflicts on earth right now.

Which obviously means that the problem is religion! Let's wage a war on religion.

:doh

 

[Voidwar]

Which obviously means that the problem is religion! Let's wage a war on religion.

:doh

Be honest. Its "Lets fight back against the religion that is waging covert war on us".

 

[Khayembii Communique]

Be honest. Its "Lets fight back against the religion that is waging covert war on us".

Religion can't fight a war. It's not even physical; it's an idea. People are "waging covert war" and it is people that should be fought.

 

[oldreliable67]

Religion can't fight a war. It's not even physical; it's an idea. People are "waging covert war" and it is people that should be fought.

Doesn't it make a considerable difference that the people that have declared war on us are of one religion, moreover, one particular part, i.e., fundamentalist, of a single, quite specific religion?

Doesn't it make a considerable difference that this particular group is identifiable by their adoption of a set of beliefs that would either convert all to their religion, or kill any who did not agree to become subservient(they actually have a name for that escapes me at the moment).

It is not a "religion...fighting a war." It is very specific subset of a very particular religion, the adoption of which is motivating a very specific group of people to wage war on modernity in total, not just the U.S.

 

[Voidwar]

Religion can't fight a war.

Naive and patently false all at once.

 

[Khayembii Communique]

It is not a "religion...fighting a war." It is very specific subset of a very particular religion, the adoption of which is motivating a very specific group of people to wage war on modernity in total, not just the U.S.

That was my point entirely.

 

[Voidwar]

Both apologists.

Not every German put on a military uniform, but Germany was at war nonetheless.

I deny the existance of "moderate" muslims. There are those willing to fight and those who want to quietly support them and wait. Both kinds are the enemy and hold the goal of a worldwide Caliphate and Sharia paramount.

 

[Khayembii Communique]

Not every German put on a military uniform, but Germany was at war nonetheless.

Germany was a country. Islam is not a country. You can't compare the two like that without a complete suspension of logical/sensible thought.

I deny the existance of "moderate" muslims.

Then you don't know what you're talking about. Maybe you should go talk to some Muslims? I know plenty that are moderate. And if you really want I could probably find one online for you, disproving your grand claim that they don't exist, which is what your entire argument is perilously balanced on.

 

[Voidwar]

Germany was a country. Islam is not a country. You can't compare the two like that without a complete suspension of logical/sensible thought.

I say I can, its a simple parallel.

Then you don't know what you're talking about. Maybe you should go talk to some Muslims? I know plenty that are moderate.

Then you have been fooled.

Muslims merely await the numbers to force you into dhimmi-hood.

 

[Khayembii Communique]

I say I can, its a simple parallel.

I never said you couldn't; I said you couldn't "without a complete suspension of logical/sensible thought." Which is exactly what you've done.

Then you have been fooled.

Muslims merely await the numbers to force you into dhimmi-hood.

Yeah, they're all tricking us!

:shock:

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Yes, and not Buddhism.

It was certainly a war against Shintoism.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Thats what they've released to the public, the declassified parts of the report. What else would you expect from it? Do you think they would officially tell us the whole effort in Iraq has been counterproductive? I am literally LOL'ing right now!!

lmfao, the Cause Celebre portion is what was released and that is what the NYT's based their original report on in the first place, in context it's clear that it is a call to stay the course.

 

[Jaguar b. p.]

Re:

Was the American butchery in Eastern Asia in the 1950s 1960s 1970s due to islam? No.

Obviously the United States has had a propensity for attacking others and mass murdering Third World villagers for a long time.

Gluteus Maximus has himself expressed a desire for America to forever rule the world.
To me, this attitude of his is what creates an "us versus them" because I don't believe in American supremacy.
Therefore any project that aims to put the United States above others in any way, will be shot down.

The pawns they manipulate are the only ones dumb enough to strap on bombs and kill off the only life they ever get to experience.

Obviously if you don't believe that the martyrs will be revived, you won't understand martyrdom operations.

I have to notice though that your philosophy of "the only life you ever get to experience" is kind of flawed,
because in that case it doesn't matter what you do as the outcome is always the same.
Why do anything if everyone is going to be dead forever?

The radical right often invokes this is a holy war, reinforcing what the radical muslims believe. Its a very pathetic situation created by the military industrial establishment in this nation.

I saw a picture on Yahoo yesterday, it was the American military praying together in Iraq.
Were they forced into this by Lockheed Martin do you think, or are they actually Christian hordes

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Re:

Was the American butchery in Eastern Asia in the 1950s 1960s 1970s due to islam? No.

No it was due to Communist expansionism against peaceful neighboring allies of the United States, the butchery still continues where the U.S. failed to defeat the Communist aggressors.

Obviously the United States has had a propensity for attacking others and mass murdering Third World villagers for a long time.

Umm ya it is Kim il Sung, Kim Jon Il, Ho Chi Mihn, the Viet Cong, Mao Zedong, and Joseph Stalin who are guilty of mass murder the U.S. is responsible for saving millions upon millions from their tyranny from South Korea, to the Eastern Bloc the U.S. has been able to keep half the world safe for Democracy and Liberty. The only places that aren't already free or on their way to being free are those places where our interventionalism hasn't gone far enough IE Cuba, Iran, North Korea etc..

Gluteus Maximus has himself expressed a desire for America to forever rule the world.

No I support U.S. global hegemony, no country in the history of the world has been better for that world than the U.S., and no ideology has been worse for humanity than Islamism.

To me, this attitude of his is what creates an "us versus them" because I don't believe in American supremacy.

No what creates the "us versus them" mentality is your tyrannical little tin pot dictators and your radical clerics from the madrassas to the mosques to the state ran media, you culture is rotted from the inside with hate, hate for the West, hate for America, hate for liberalism, hate for the Jews, hate for anyone that won't bow down to your puritanical and twisted ideology where men become slaves, women become cattle, and children are taught to hate the Kafir from the cradle to grave, you people are a disease a ****ing cancer on humanity! However, there is a great awakening taking place, FROM AMMAN, TO AL-ANBAR, FROM BAGHDAD TO JAKARTA, FROM BEIRUT TO ISLAMABAD, FROM CAIRO TO KANDAHAR, FROM SANAA TO DOHA, the people are coming together as one and throwing off their chains of oppression forced upon them by a hateful religious elite and a repressive monarchical class and with one voice demanding their freedom, LIBERTY AND PLURALISM ARE ON THE MARCH, and there is nothing that the Islamist al-Taqqiya propaganda of jahilliya can do to stop it! Your reign of hate is at an end you will either change with the rising tide or you will be crushed by it!

Obviously if you don't believe that the martyrs will be revived, you won't understand martyrdom operations.

Yes we understand that you brainwash children with the promise of sexual reward to strap bombs to themselves and murder as many innocent civilians as they can while killing themselves as well, like I said you are evil and if there is a Satan you are his apostle and if there is a hell those who strap bombs onto children shall surely burn in it for eternity!

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

I'd just like to add that this was already thoroughly debunked by me in a discussion (not really a debate, because you can't debate ToT) with ToT some months ago.

No you didn't debunk anything you are a liar, we caught an Iranian truck with Iranian made weapons in the ****ing act!

There was never proof that either Hizb'allah or Iranians were involved in this.

Yet another lie, Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility and they are a well known front for Hezbollah.

This sentence is classic!

Only if you can't comprehend that it takes force to topple tyrants in order to allow people their god given right to self determination.

 

[Khayembii Communique]

No you didn't debunk anything you are a liar, we caught an Iranian truck with Iranian made weapons in the ****ing act!

I'm not going to debate this with you. We even got a separate article where a US GENERAL said that it wasn't from Iran. You lost; quit whining and move on.

Yet another lie, Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility and they are a well known front for Hezbollah.

1. I'd love to see the source for this.
2. An admission by Islamic Jihad means nothing; if Hizb'allah was going to admit to it, they wouldn't have denied it so vehemently. Oh, you know other groups claimed responsibility for it as well, right?
3. And, of course, it was never proven who did it at all.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

I'm not going to debate this with you. We even got a separate article where a US GENERAL said that it wasn't from Iran. You lost; quit whining and move on.

You're so ****ing FOS it was an Iranian truck with Iranian made weapons caught in the act so WTF are you even bothering to lie? What General? WTF are you talking about? You're lying your *** off.

1. I'd love to see the source for this.
2. An admission by Islamic Jihad means nothing; if Hizb'allah was going to admit to it, they wouldn't have denied it so vehemently. Oh, you know other groups claimed responsibility for it as well, right?
3. And, of course, it was never proven who did it at all.

Try wikipedia buddy, it's a well known FACT that Hezbollah is responsible for the attack. Islamic Jihad did it and they are a Hezbollah front group. Iran and Hezbollah as their proxy have been deemed responsible in a United States court of law during a civil trial in 2003 so you're argument that it hasn't been proven is ****ed.

 

[TheHonestTruth]

the Cause Celebre portion is what was released and that is what the NYT's based their original report on in the first place, in context it's clear that it is a call to stay the course.

Wrong. They were quoting officials who were citing the classified portions.