Sweeping new vaccine mandates for 100 million Americans

JANFU said:

2nd opinion from another Dr

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Why? I like and trust my doctor. Besides there is more than one at his practice.

EMNofSeattle said:

They were never supposed to be affective. You can go on Twitter and Telegram and see the old videos of us training afghan policeman, they are insubordinate, ignorant, many are using drugs. The Taliban by contrast, we’re more disciplined and likely were far more supported by the Afghan people as a whole then the puppet government.

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That I wouldn't know, but i do thank you for your input.

But the big picture? I hope we learn a lesson, with this 'nation building' shit . . .

Lursa said:

Exactly. And in those efforts, they eventually offered people $100 here...and hey, why didnt I get that reward for being a good citizen?

It's rhetorical to make a point. I didnt expect financial remuneration.

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Ah, sorry Lursa!

I must have checked my sense of humor at the door, when I walked in!

MTAtech said:

I don’t know specifically but I would surmise that there is language in the union contracts governing this.

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So it’s such a massive emergency that the president needs to force all companies with over one hundred people to follow his constitutionally questionable orders but not so bad that those unions that just so happen to vote Democrat would have to follow along.

It’s playing politics and nothing more.

Chomsky said:

A carrier, or possible carrier, may violate a fellow employee's civil rights.

You know, the 'your right to swing you arms ends at my face' thing?

Ditto for employees.

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Do you have a civic right to not be accidentally infected from someone. If I catch a cold from someone at work are they violating my civil rights.
I don’t see how you can say spreading the flu or a cold doesn’t violate someone’s civil rights but spreading Covid does. Especially when you consider the common flu kills thousands of people every year.

At some point we are going to get so loose on what covers civil rights and proper governmental authority that there will be no point in having a constitution at all. They will just do as they please.

noonereal said:

First off, your doctor may be a dope. Being a doctor does not make one wise.

Second, it is possible he is right but he would not know unless you were tested, were you?

and, as that natural immunity wears off, you will need another vaccine.

now filter in that you may have had the original strain of Covid so you have no protection vs Delta.

This is not black and white as you have now learned.

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I will take my doctors advice over yours. His practice has things well in hand. I find interesting that there are more than a few people on this board feel the need to offer medical advise which they are ill equipped to give.

Hamish Howl said:

According to SCOTUS way the hell back in 1905, vaccine mandates have to be enacted by congress.

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Are you talking about the state level mandates. Because that is not the same thing as a federal mandate done by EO.

PirateMk1 said:

I have had the disease. My doctor does not want me taking a vaccine. I trust my doctor and he has explained his reasons to me. I am good. Whats with the pressuring me to get something? You dont even know me or my medical history. You vs. my doctor who I know. Who do you think I am going to trust?

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Our personal doctors, if qualified & aware, are the best to judge our suitability for the vaccine & boosters.

I've been paying attention to those that have been having reactions to the shots, and one possible group of concern are those that have had prior Covid infection. It seems in some of the previously infected, the vaccine - particularly the 2nd mRNA shot - can induce too powerful of an immune response. That's also the concern I have with the booster.

To be honest, after not having a great vaccination experience, I think I will get an anti-body test firstly - rather than jump right into a booster shot blind. The idea is to 'have antibodies', not the 'highest number of shots'. We all our different, and some of us produce a plethora of antibodies after just one shot, while others suffer a dearth of antibodies after both shots!

braindrain said:

Do you have a civic right to not be accidentally infected from someone. If I catch a cold from someone at work are they violating my civil rights.
I don’t see how you can say spreading the flu or a cold doesn’t violate someone’s civil rights but spreading Covid does. Especially when you consider the common flu kills thousands of people every year.

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That's exactly what I'm saying & arguing! An unvaccinated, unmitigated employee, might be violating his or her fellow employees' rights to remain safe.

braindrain said:

At some point we are going to get so loose on what covers civil rights and proper governmental authority that there will be no point in having a constitution at all. They will just do as they please.

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Hopefully, not. But, our rights do seem to wain with nearly every passing year. Especially, with respect to government intrusion.

Chomsky said:

Our personal doctors, if qualified & aware, are the best to judge our suitability for the vaccine & boosters.

I've been paying attention to those that have been having reactions to the shots, and one possible group of concern are those that have had prior Covid infection. It seems in some of the previously infected, the vaccine - particularly the 2nd mRNA shot - can induce too powerful of an immune response. That's also the concern I have with the booster.

To be honest, after not having a great vaccination experience, I think I will get an anti-body test firstly - rather than jump right into a booster shot blind. The idea is to 'have antibodies', not the 'highest number of shots'. We all our different, and some of us produce a plethora of antibodies after just one shot, while others suffer a dearth of antibodies after both shots!

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You are the first person on this board to even mention having your antibodies checked to determine if you even need the shot. Hell you are one of the most reasonable persons regarding Covid on this board right now. Medicine is called a practice for good reason, everyone is different and has to be treated as such.

Chomsky said:

They're not working, at least in part, because they're not mandated nor enforced.




Yes. And also the most personally intrusive, which is why I prefer 'hard' mandate to be the very last resort


Then nor will vaccination happen, given the same enforcement.

But that just changed today, because it involves employment. That, will be the enforcement. And (IMO), the mandate with the 'test, mask, distance' option should be tried firstly.



Compelling, but not enough for me to jump straight into the 'no option' mandate, without trying the 'option' mandate firstly.

I want mitigation, including a 'mandate'. I'm just not ready to immediately jump to the hardcore level you're willing to go to, without sliding through the 'teat, mask, distance' option firstly.

I suspect if we go through the softer option firstly, we might get some that decide to vaccinate to relieve their inconvenience & hardship. But more importantly, a mandate with a mitigation option may be all we need! We can always go harsher, if needed.

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What vaccines are needed in your State for attending school?

PirateMk1 said:

I will take my doctors advice over yours. His practice has things well in hand. I find interesting that there are more than a few people on this board feel the need to offer medical advise which they are ill equipped to give.

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I did not offer medical advise so I am not sure who you are speaking to. I gave you some facts to guide you.

Heed them, to your benefit, neglect them to your detriment.

All the best

PirateMk1 said:

You are the first person on this board to even mention having your antibodies checked to determine if you even need the shot. Hell you are one of the most reasonable persons regarding Covid on this board right now. Medicine is called a practice for good reason, everyone is different and has to be treated as such.

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You just replied to my post that said the same thing!

Did you not know what I meant about being tested?

Chomsky said:

That I wouldn't know, but i do thank you for your input.

But the big picture? I hope we learn a lesson, with this 'nation building' shit . . .

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The problem is the Afghan people are not a “nation”

we have a tendency in America to use the term Nation to describe a legal country or state. But in older uses Nation referred to a group of people who share broadly the same culture, language and have affinity toward each other. This was a driving factor in German unification, that there was a German “nation” of Germans who were spread about various kingdoms and principalities who were later united by Prussia.

Afghanistan is not one, they have twenty different languages, people are highly tribal, many are born and die in the same villages have never visited the next village over, etc.

PirateMk1 said:

You are the first person on this board to even mention having your antibodies checked to determine if you even need the shot. Hell you are one of the most reasonable persons regarding Covid on this board right now. Medicine is called a practice for good reason, everyone is different and has to be treated as such.

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Thanks for the compliment, but I just call 'em like I see 'em!

Right now the board seems to be all wound-up in 'vaccination', seemingly forgetting vaccination is only one (albeit important) component in our end-goal of 'mitigation'!

There's a whole constellation of mitigation components available to us in reaching our end goal of mitigating the virus. And before we force drugs in our citizens' arms against their wills (if ever?), we better damn well make sure we have worked & expended all other avenues.

But that being said, I do believe getting vaccinated is a civic & social responsibility, and would like to see all my fellow Americans - that safely can - get vaccinated.

braindrain said:

Are you talking about the state level mandates. Because that is not the same thing as a federal mandate done by EO.

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And no doubt headed for Federal Courts. And then fast tracked to SCOTUS

noonereal said:

First off, your doctor may be a dope. Being a doctor does not make one wise.

Second, it is possible he is right but he would not know unless you were tested, were you?

and, as that natural immunity wears off, you will need another vaccine.

now filter in that you may have had the original strain of Covid so you have no protection vs Delta.

This is not black and white as you have now learned.

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You bring-up a good point, in the bolded.

I'm not aware as to whether prior Original Variant infection produces adequate anti-body response to the Delta Variant? That's an interesting question! I suspect Original Infection would offer some protection, considering the vaccines' boosters are being touted as useful against Delta, but have not been modified for Delta (that I'm aware).

Chomsky said:

That's exactly what I'm saying & arguing! An unvaccinated, unmitigated employee, might be violating his or her fellow employees' rights to remain safe.



Hopefully, not. But, our rights do seem to wain with nearly every passing year. Especially, with respect to government intrusion.

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noonereal said:

You just replied to my post that said the same thing!

Did you not know what I meant about being tested?

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I dont need or want your advice. And you said testing in general, not antibody levels testing which I have mentioned and which Chomsky just mentioned.

Hamish Howl said:

Well, there it is. The stupidest thing I've seen all year.

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I must admit after just agreeing with PirateMk1 in a post up-thread, this comment is a bit . . . lacking.

Chomsky said:

Our personal doctors, if qualified & aware, are the best to judge our suitability for the vaccine & boosters.

I've been paying attention to those that have been having reactions to the shots, and one possible group of concern are those that have had prior Covid infection. It seems in some of the previously infected, the vaccine - particularly the 2nd mRNA shot - can induce too powerful of an immune response. That's also the concern I have with the booster.

To be honest, after not having a great vaccination experience, I think I will get an anti-body test firstly - rather than jump right into a booster shot blind. The idea is to 'have antibodies', not the 'highest number of shots'. We all our different, and some of us produce a plethora of antibodies after just one shot, while others suffer a dearth of antibodies after both shots!

Click to expand...

This is the correct approach and yes, the temporary side effects can be significant for a day or two with people who have already had Covid. This is not a bad thing as you will be bullet proof as a result.

Bear in mind, Moderna is a much strong vaccine than is Pfizer. This is why Pfizer protection "vanishes" after 5-6 months. This is also why Moderna's booster is slated to be a half does and Pfizer's a full.

Chomsky said:

Sweeping new vaccine mandates for 100 million Americans

President Joe Biden has announced sweeping new federal vaccine requirements affecting as many as 100 million Americans in an all-out effort to curb the surging COVID-19 delta variant.

apnews.com

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This is indeed, as my article claims, "Sweeping new vaccine mandates"!

I tried my best to capture the salient points in my quotes, above.

Biden's orders are broad, expansive, encompassing, and bold. I've been of two-minds on mandates, but am coming around to accept some mandates - as long as there's reasonable medical, religious, or testing exceptions.

It seems the private employment mandate allows for a 'testing' option, but the federal employment/contractor mandate does not! This last (no test option), causes me great concern.

I believe those who refuse to vaccinate, but are willing to take other reasonable measures like testing, masking, and social distancing - should have the opportunity to act in good faith without being forced to put a drug in their arm. At least at this point in time. I just can't quite get over my reticence to mandate an individual being forced to drug themselves, without allowing some other reasonable alternative to those willing to act in good faith.

In addition, I fear private employers may become emboldened by the federal 'no test vaccine mandate', believing the now have license to go to that extent with their private-citizen non-government employees. We've often seen administrative policy towards federal employees soon becomes adopted by private industry. As example, employee drug testing comes to mind - something I'm dead against.

Anyway, I usually don't get so personally opinionated in my MSN OP's - but as I said, I'm torn on this subject. We need to vaccinate & better address this Covid spread. We need to rake masks, sanitation, distance, and other mitigation more seriously. All, without doubt. And, that means most of us should get vaccinated. But man, I just can't cross the boundary to say 'vaccinate without any other recourse'.

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The vaccines do not work, so lets mandate them. That makes perfect sense. The problem with liberals is they have lost the ability to think logically or intelligently. The have become the people of Idiocracy arguing that Brondo has electrolytes....

The vaccines do not prevent contracting or transmitting the virus in any way. "Apart from getting sick, there is also worry that with the Delta variant, a fully vaccinated person who becomes infected may spread the coronavirus to others according to recent reports from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention"
In addition Data from COVID-19 tests in the United States, the United Kingdom and Singapore are showing that vaccinated people who become infected with Delta SARS-CoV-2 can carry as much virus in their nose (viral load) as do unvaccinated people. This means that despite the protection offered by vaccines, a proportion of vaccinated people can pass on Delta, possibly aiding its rise.
In fact, many biologists have warned for decades that the use on non sterilizing vaccines like the Covid vaccines, can actually be dangerous in that they facilitate the mutation of virus into ever more virulent strains. The science is simple. Virus like everything else in nature produce mutants. With a non sterilizing vaccine, some virus survive the vaccination, and the ones who do survive because their mutation makes them less vulnerable to the antibodies produced by the vaccine. Those virus go on to replicate, and are passed on to others.
The Delta strain may very well be a result of the vaccines.
New reports out also indicate that natural immunity from vaccinated people is 13 to 25 times more effective than the vaccine which we now know only lasts a few months.
So what sense does it make scientifically to vaccinate people who probably have better natural immunity than the vaccine when there is evidence that the vaccines do not even work.

PirateMk1 said:

And you said testing in general, not antibody levels testing which I have mentioned and which Chomsky just mentioned.

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what on earth kind of test did you think I was talking about?
I thought it obvious.

In any event, this is a strange way to thank me for my sage advise.

Don't read my post right about, it too is very informative.

noonereal said:

This is the correct approach and yes, the temporary side effects can be significant for a day or two with people who have already had Covid. This is not a bad thing as you will be bullet proof as a result.

Bear in mind, Moderna is a much strong vaccine than is Pfizer. This is why Pfizer protection "vanishes" after 5-6 months. This is also why Moderna's booster is slated to be a half does and Pfizer's a full.

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Thanks for your vote of confidence.

Chomsky said:

You bring-up a good point, in the bolded.

I'm not aware as to whether prior Original Variant infection produces adequate anti-body response to the Delta Variant? That's an interesting question! I suspect Original Infection would offer some protection, considering the vaccines' boosters are being touted as useful against Delta, but have not been modified for Delta (that I'm aware).

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And @PirateMk1 It's an excellent idea...but I'm not aware of any standards for determining immunity with them yet, esp. with variants.

I'm pretty sure I had covid mid-Jan 2020. I would have had to pay for an antibody test and since it was easy for me to work form home and isolate in general, I chose not to.

I got vaccinated in the spring when eligible. Right now, they are trying to determine if people need boosters and when.

I dont believe they know yet what those antibody tests would determine. How much protection and for how long? And I'm referring to naturally acquired antibodies from having covid as well as those from vaccination.

Testing is fine but I dont think there is any standard to make a decision on in terms of protection yet.

MTAtech said:

Goes your car have seatbelts? Does the meat you buy in the supermarket get inspected? Does your employer need to follow federal labor rules? Do farms have to use only approved pesticides?

Somehow those federal mandates survived constitutional challenge.

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Rachel