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Sweden’s “fauci” says evidence for masks weak

Simpletruther

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Sweden's Dr. Anders Tegnell says face masks are not a cure-all for COVID-19. - TheBlaze

Earlier this month, Tegnell decried scientific studies on the effectiveness of face masks against COVID-19. "The findings that have been produced through (the use of) face masks are astonishingly weak," Tegnell told German newspaper Bild.

This is consistent with the world health organization that says there is is no quality direct evidence masks are effective.


A lot of people are acting pretty childish and anti science on both sides. The left is trying to claim the “pro science� moniker. But some of them are not acting very intellectual, acting like it is written in stone that masks work and shaming non mask wearers.


Only 14% of Swedes wear a mask. There is more to this than the experts know for certain, it talks about how Peru locked down early, wih only 71 deaths, banned family gatherings, the whole works, yet still has the second highest death rate.
 
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jnug

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Nobody says its a cure all for COVID. You needed some Swedish doc to figure that out?
 

Chomsky

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Sweden's Dr. Anders Tegnell says face masks are not a cure-all for COVID-19. - TheBlaze

Earlier this month, Tegnell decried scientific studies on the effectiveness of face masks against COVID-19. "The findings that have been produced through (the use of) face masks are astonishingly weak," Tegnell told German newspaper Bild.

This is consistent with the world health organization that says there is is no quality direct evidence masks are effective.


A lot of people are acting pretty childish and anti science on both sides. The left is trying to claim the “pro science� moniker. But some of them are not acting very intellectual, acting like it’s written in stone that masks work and shaming non mask wearers.


Only 14% of Swedes wear a mask. There is more to this than the experts know for certain, it talks about how Peru locked down early, wih only 71 deaths, banned family gatherings, thenwhole works, yet still has the second highest death rate.
Sweden is not the place to take Covid-response advice from:

(NY Post)Sweden’s COVID-19 outbreak leads to highest death toll in 150 years

And for perspective, 150 years encompasses two World Wars, the Great Depression, and the Spanish Flu epidemic. Quite the record to have!
 

Simpletruther

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Sweden is not the place to take Covid-response advice from:

(NY Post)Sweden’s COVID-19 outbreak leads to highest death toll in 150 years

And for perspective, 150 years encompasses two World Wars, the Great Depression, and the Spanish Flu epidemic. Quite the record to have!

That remains to be seen. All strategies have costs, as one said in the link, it may be years before we know which strategy works best.

But this was more about masks in particular, not overall strategies. The same is true of masks, there is some conflicting evidence. Though several strand said of evidence post at masks helping.
 

Simpletruther

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Nobody says its a cure all for COVID. You needed some Swedish doc to figure that out?


I never claimed anybody said that. Not sure what you are on about. It’s not the topic of my OP, it was just a part of the title of the link, but not the topic.
 

Chomsky

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That remains to be seen. All strategies have costs, as one said in the link, it may be years before we know which strategy works best.

But this was more about masks in particular, not overall strategies. The same is true of masks, there is some conflicting evidence. Though several strand said of evidence post at masks helping.
Yours is a fair and reasonably presented response. I'll accept it.

As an aside, my personal philosophy is that one way or another, we're going to hit herd immunity of some sort. So, I'm doing my best to put myself in the 30% that doesn't get it!

One last item though. Our American experience empirically shows that social-distancing + mask use decreases spread drastically. Obviously, that's more than masks alone. But we know what works.
 
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TomFitz

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That remains to be seen. All strategies have costs, as one said in the link, it may be years before we know which strategy works best.

But this was more about masks in particular, not overall strategies. The same is true of masks, there is some conflicting evidence. Though several strand said of evidence post at masks helping.

That remains to be seen?

Sweden had ten times the hospitalization and death rate as Norway, with which it shares a very long border.
 

Simpletruther

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That remains to be seen?

Sweden had ten times the hospitalization and death rate as Norway, with which it shares a very long border.

Yea but what will the long term bring? Will it keep coming back and everyone catch up, while suffering other costs and deaths (suicides, lack of health care etc) that Sweden did not?

Plus, the difference in outcome isn’t known for sure, lots of factors are causing differing outcomes. THis is why mentioned Peru, they did all the strict precautions early, yet it didn’t work.

Also, this is off topic of the OP which was masks, not overall strategy.
 

Simpletruther

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Yours is a fair and reasonably presented response. I'll accept it.

As an aside, my personal philosophy is that one way or another, we're going to hit herd immunity of some sort. So, I'm doing my best to put myself in the 30% that doesn't get it!

One last item though. Our American experience empirically shows that social-distancing + mask use decreases spread drastically. Obviously, that's more than masks alone. But we know what works.

Correlation isn’t causation, and it’s why the WHO says there isn’t yet high quality direct evidence that masks work.

We don’t know masks work, some think they work based on some correlations, but since the change might be from other factors, and masks are just along for the ride, we don’t know.

The overall point is why sre people being so dogmatic and insistent that they know, contrary to what science says. Science says we do not know.
 

ludin

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Whether they work or not is up in the air. I have heard and read more conflicting messages on this than i care to.

Depending on where i go I will wear one for the simple fact that most stores around here are requiring one.
2. i don't feeling like getting assaulted by some dumbass because i don't have one.
 

OlNate

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Correlation isn’t causation, and it’s why the WHO says there isn’t yet high quality direct evidence that masks work.

We don’t know masks work, some think they work based on some correlations, but since the change might be from other factors, and masks are just along for the ride, we don’t know.

The overall point is why sre people being so dogmatic and insistent that they know, contrary to what science says. Science says we do not know.

Correlation isn't causation, but it's wise to err on the side of caution during a global pandemic. Why cease correlating practices when they cause no harm, and could potentially lead to harm reduction? It costs me approximately 50 cents a day to participate in this strategy with a disposable mask, less if I buy a washable one and reuse it.

I think the reason people are being so dogmatic is because it's really all we have at the moment to combat this thing - that and, where possible, social distancing and isolation. I would suggest that the most dogmatic masker hates their mask as much as the most passionate anti-masker on a hot day in July. But until we have a more concrete understanding of this thing, and, more importantly, a real solution, those of us who care about our populations will continue to advocate for a cooperative approach. That it's just a bit of cloth on one's face makes pushback all the more confounding.
 

jnug

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I never claimed anybody said that. Not sure what you are on about. It’s not the topic of my OP, it was just a part of the title of the link, but not the topic.

Read the banner head of your own link for God sake.
 

Simpletruther

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Read the banner head of your own link for God sake.

Yea what about? I didn’t post on what was in the banner. I clearly layer out the topic.
 

Simpletruther

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Correlation isn't causation, but it's wise to err on the side of caution during a global pandemic. Why cease correlating practices when they cause no harm, and could potentially lead to harm reduction? It costs me approximately 50 cents a day to participate in this strategy with a disposable mask, less if I buy a washable one and reuse it.

I think the reason people are being so dogmatic is because it's really all we have at the moment to combat this thing - that and, where possible, social distancing and isolation. I would suggest that the most dogmatic masker hates their mask as much as the most passionate anti-masker on a hot day in July. But until we have a more concrete understanding of this thing, and, more importantly, a real solution, those of us who care about our populations will continue to advocate for a cooperative approach. That it's just a bit of cloth on one's face makes pushback all the more confounding.

It’s the same rationale some use to buy snake oil remedies, , it correlated with them getting better last time they used it.

I know there is more and better correlation on masks. But still, there should be room for disagreement.
 

OlNate

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It’s the same rationale some use to buy snake oil remedies, , it correlated with them getting better last time they used it.

I know there is more and better correlation on masks. But still, there should be room for disagreement.

There's always room for disagreement...but if you choose to disagree with what has rather quickly become a societal norm, you have to expect backlash and calls for compliance. (Using universal you's, just to be clear, not calling you out personally)

The difference between masks and snake oil remedies is that we all understand that masks don't cure anything. No one is being misled. It's about taking steps to be as safe as possible, and masks are simply one part of an overall program that includes washing your hands, not touching your face, maintaining social distancing, and, where possible, staying home. None of this cures Covid-19. It simply buys time until that cure can be found. It reduces the impact, limits the spread, and attempts to save lives. You can disagree, that's fine, but unless you have a better solution, it's probably ok to participate anyway. It's just a piece of cloth. :shrug:
 

Simpletruther

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There's always room for disagreement...but if you choose to disagree with what has rather quickly become a societal norm, you have to expect backlash and calls for compliance. (Using universal you's, just to be clear, not calling you out personally)

The difference between masks and snake oil remedies is that we all understand that masks don't cure anything. No one is being misled. It's about taking steps to be as safe as possible, and masks are simply one part of an overall program that includes washing your hands, not touching your face, maintaining social distancing, and, where possible, staying home. None of this cures Covid-19. It simply buys time until that cure can be found. It reduces the impact, limits the spread, and attempts to save lives. You can disagree, that's fine, but unless you have a better solution, it's probably ok to participate anyway. It's just a piece of cloth. :shrug:
But ifmthe backlash is strong enough, then there really isn’t room for disagreement.
 

TomFitz

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Yea but what will the long term bring? Will it keep coming back and everyone catch up, while suffering other costs and deaths (suicides, lack of health care etc) that Sweden did not?

Plus, the difference in outcome isn’t known for sure, lots of factors are causing differing outcomes. THis is why mentioned Peru, they did all the strict precautions early, yet it didn’t work.

Also, this is off topic of the OP which was masks, not overall strategy.

It may very well keep coming back in Sweden, although we don’’t know for sure.

It keep coming back in the US.

Why, Because there was no consistant national shutdown, no unified policy, no reliance on experts, no central plan for assembling and distributing resources.

Everything was haphazard and half assed, which are Trump hallmarks.

Sweden chose to do nothing, just as Trump did.

Based on the American experience, where doing nothing, and attacking people calling for doing what the other civilized countries did was the Trump policy,
 

Simpletruther

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It may very well keep coming back in Sweden, although we don’’t know for sure.

It keep coming back in the US.

Why, Because there was no consistant national shutdown, no unified policy, no reliance on experts, no central plan for assembling and distributing resources.

Everything was haphazard and half assed, which are Trump hallmarks.

Sweden chose to do nothing, just as Trump did.

Based on the American experience, where doing nothing, and attacking people calling for doing what the other civilized countries did was the Trump policy,

Well, it might come back despite a unified policy. Unless we all wear masks till the end of time, forever, no school, no sports etc etc forever.
 

Juks

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The argument against masks is (from the Swedish health department) that mask is not a guarantee for not getting infected or from infecting someone else and that promoting them could lead to less social distance and to that employers reduces the working from home policies they implemented this spring wish would lead to overcrowded public transports. But the recommendations might change shortly. They are looking into if they could recommend masks in certain situations without risking less social distances

They do however not discourage the use either and says that everone that wants to or has personal reasons to use them should.
 
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