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Support Israel!

Stace said:
Well, ****, even us Americans can't obey the Geneva Conventions.....so why should anyone else be expected to? :doh
So because we break them it's okay? Just becuase no one has the balls to put our feet to the fire doesn't make it alright to break the Geneva Conventions. It's still wrong. I don't support the current US administrations actions, just like I don't support Israels actions.
Tashah said:
What exactly is regularly? Yearly? Monthly? Weekly? Daily? Hourly? Nonstop? Can you plz supply citations that support your nondefined indictment of 'regularity'?
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0614-10.htm
http://www.gush-shalom.org/thewall/
http://www.vtjp.org/background/wallreport3.htm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,16518,1594808,00.html
http://www.aljazeerah.info/Opinion ...te Called Israel By Genevieve Cora Fraser.htm
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/07/03/1057179090228.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3531396.st
Tashah said:
Perhaps you didn't notice Will, but Israel withdrew totally from Gaza this past August and transfered control of the Gaza border to the PA in November. Seems to me that Israel has indeed made recent unilateral peaceful overtures without a concomitant response from Abbas & Co.
Yes, they dismantled their illegal settlements after pressure was applied even from the US, their biggest and most influential ally and supporter. Again, I have to say, for those who insist upon not listening, I AM NEITHER PRO ISRAEL OR PALESTINE, NOR AM I AGAINST EITHER. Both have done terrible things to one another. STOP ASSUMING I AM ANTI-ISRAEL. There are many honorable Palestinians and many honorable Israelis. What the state or Israel does to the Plaestinians is often very wrong, and what suicide bombers and other Palestinian terrortists do to Israelis is wrong.
Tashah said:
As far as the military occupation, only only one sector of Samaria/Judea (the West Bank) remains under total Israeli control. The remaining two sectors are under the joint administrative control of both Israel and the PA. Perhaps you should brush up a bit on current events rather than dredge through fifty years of conflict history that cannot be rehabilitated. Also, brush up on the military tactics used extensively around the globe vis-a-vis military occupation. This isn't the multifaceted Tilted Forum Project Will, so it would behoove you to improve your presentation style and evidentiary content.
I'm here to discuss, not to make a presentation. Also, I never said "total Israeli control", I said military occupation, which is the correct term. Let me give you an example of military occupation: Iraq. The US forces are in charge, but they are working with and even training Iraqi police and soldiers, and they often work with those police and soldiers. Ultimately, Israel calls the shots, even outside of Samaria/Judea.
vergiss said:
I think you meant Nazis.

And BULLS*IT!
Go grab an enyoclopedia or history book and look up Irgun Zwei Leumi and the Lehi, or Stern Group. Or maybe the first Israeli-Arab war.
 
Will, your thinking is not productive.

It is known that both Palestinians and Israelis have commited acts of barbarism. It is irrelevant who did more or what not. There is no 'just' victor in this war. THe only 'victor' should be peace.
 
Willravel said:
So because we break them it's okay? Just becuase no one has the balls to put our feet to the fire doesn't make it alright to break the Geneva Conventions. It's still wrong. I don't support the current US administrations actions, just like I don't support Israels actions.

No, it doesn't make it OK. However, many nations "look up" to the U.S., so to speak, so if we do something, or don't do something, other nations seem to think that it's ok. As Americans, we are held to a higher standard than citizens of other nations. It's not right, and it's not fair, but it's there and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Quite frankly, I'm appalled that our military can't follow something as simple as the Geneva Conventions. I can't speak for the other branches of the military, but as a Basic Trainee at Lackland AFB, that stuff was drilled into my head.

Not to mention it should just be common sense, anyway.
 
FinnMacCool said:
Will, your thinking is not productive.

It is known that both Palestinians and Israelis have commited acts of barbarism. It is irrelevant who did more or what not. There is no 'just' victor in this war. THe only 'victor' should be peace.
Please show me in my posts where I said one group has done more than another. I responded to people, and all people seem to want to talk about are how bad the Plaestinians are and they try to make out the Israelis as wonderful. From that position, my position in the middle seems relatively pro-Palestinian and/or anti-Israeli. That's a perceptional mistake. I am still 100% in the middle, thinking that both parties are doing a lot of bad, and a little good. I stand by my first post, in which I stated that if it were up to me Israel would be gone and the Israelis and Palestinians would be on the opposite sides of the planet. I see that as the best answer for a long peace.
Stace said:
No, it doesn't make it OK. However, many nations "look up" to the U.S., so to speak, so if we do something, or don't do something, other nations seem to think that it's ok. As Americans, we are held to a higher standard than citizens of other nations. It's not right, and it's not fair, but it's there and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Quite frankly, I'm appalled that our military can't follow something as simple as the Geneva Conventions. I can't speak for the other branches of the military, but as a Basic Trainee at Lackland AFB, that stuff was drilled into my head.

Not to mention it should just be common sense, anyway.
Then you and I are in total agreement. Well put. Forgive my misunderstanding of your position.
 
Willravel said:
Yes, they dismantled their illegal settlements after pressure was applied even from the US, their biggest and most influential ally and supporter.
I beg to differ. This was a unilateral Israeli decision to simultaneously provide new inertia to the peace process and to remove illegal and indefensible settlements from Gaza.

Willravel said:
Again, I have to say, for those who insist upon not listening, I AM NEITHER PRO ISRAEL OR PALESTINE, NOR AM I AGAINST EITHER. Both have done terrible things to one another. STOP ASSUMING I AM ANTI-ISRAEL. There are many honorable Palestinians and many honorable Israelis. What the state or Israel does to the Plaestinians is often very wrong, and what suicide bombers and other Palestinian terrortists do to Israelis is wrong.
I never assume Will. I respond exclusively to what is delivered and provide the original quote that I respond to. Beyond that, we are in agreeance here.

Willravel said:
I'm here to discuss, not to make a presentation. Also, I never said "total Israeli control", I said military occupation, which is the correct term.
Not to split hairs, but the combination of textual content and citation links constitute a pov presentation Will.

The IDF does not militarily occupy any Palestinian territory in-toto. Gaza is unoccupied. Zones 1 and 2 of the West Bank are under joint administrative control (both the IDF and PA patrol these areas and civil authority is strictly PA), and Zone 3 alone remains under exclusive IDF control (patrols, checkpoints, administrative) until the PA is able to effectively govern this zone and reduce terrorist incidents.

Willravel said:
Let me give you an example of military occupation: Iraq. The US forces are in charge, but they are working with and even training Iraqi police and soldiers, and they often work with those police and soldiers. Ultimately, Israel calls the shots, even outside of Samaria/Judea.
Ultimately, the fate of the Palestinians is in their own hands. Responding to the IDF withdrawal from Gaza with Qassam rocket attacks on Israeli towns is quite less than an optimal reciprosity by any definition.

Willravel said:
Go grab an enyoclopedia or history book and look up Irgun Zwei Leumi and the Lehi, or Stern Group. Or maybe the first Israeli-Arab war.
How thoughtful. Perhaps you should do likewise, and peruse the numerous Arab invasions against Israel. While you're at it, familiarize yourself with airplane hijackings, the tarmac execution of airline pilots, murder at the Olympics, piracy on the high-seas (Achille Lauro), rocket attacks on schools, suicide-bombings in malls and pizza parlors, and the wanton criminal embezzlement of international funds. Enjoy your grizzly tryst with history Will.



 
For one thing, arguing with Tashah isn't productive at all because she will never yield an inch even if you show her 10 page reports on civillian killings. Soon she, and others will follow, will begin to call you anti semitic. Arguing about what Israel did exactly is only going to result in them demonizing you. Its a screwy tactic but thats what they do.
 
Tashah said:
I beg to differ. This was a unilateral Israeli decision to simultaneously provide new inertia to the peace process and to remove illegal and indefensible settlements from Gaza.
All 'unilateral' means is that the final decision was in the hands of the Israelis alone. 'Unilateral' has nothing to do with any pressure applied from other nations or organizations. If the UN said they'd sanction Israel if they didn't withdraw from the West Bank, and then Israel withdrew from the west bank, it's still unilateral. The final decision is with Israel and Israel alone.
Tashah said:
I never assume Will. I respond exclusively to what is delivered and provide the original quote that I respond to. Beyond that, we are in agreeance here.
Excelent, as that has been my bottom line all along. They both fight. They both do bad things. I'd prefer if ther were not occupying the same areas.
Tashah said:
Not to split hairs, but the combination of textual content and citation links constitute a pov presentation Will.
As I've said before, I was repsonding to a request to supply evidence on one side. I did so. No one asked for proof that Palestine is involved in terrorism (as I suspect very few people need proof of that).
Tashah said:
The IDF does not militarily occupy any Palestinian territory in-toto. Gaza is unoccupied. Zones 1 and 2 of the West Bank are under joint administrative control (both the IDF and PA patrol these areas and civil authority is strictly PA), and Zone 3 alone remains under exclusive IDF control (patrols, checkpoints, administrative) until the PA is able to effectively govern this zone and reduce terrorist incidents.
And what about control over the borders and air space?
Tashah said:
Ultimately, the fate of the Palestinians is in their own hands. Responding to the IDF withdrawal from Gaza with Qassam rocket attacks on Israeli towns is quite less than an optimal reciprosity by any definition.
I agree. I think that those militant forces within Palestine would benifit from more diplomacy oriented tactics, as well as better organization and respect for the Palestinian government.
Tashah said:
How thoughtful. Perhaps you should do likewise, and peruse the numerous Arab invasions against Israel. While you're at it, familiarize yourself with airplane hijackings, the tarmac execution of airline pilots, murder at the Olympics, piracy on the high-seas (Achille Lauro), rocket attacks on schools, suicide-bombings in malls and pizza parlors, and the wanton criminal embezzlement of international funds. Enjoy your grizzly tryst with history Will.
That's a shame. Just above you said how you aren't assuming I'm taking sides. Here you clearly think I'm taking sides against Israel, and joining the side of Palestine. I'm not going to repeeat myself. You can go on hating Palestine and siding with Israel 100% just like the idiots in the current administration who you may very well have voted for.
 
FinnMacCool said:
For one thing, arguing with Tashah isn't productive at all because she will never yield an inch even if you show her 10 page reports on civillian killings. Soon she, and others will follow, will begin to call you anti semitic. Arguing about what Israel did exactly is only going to result in them demonizing you. Its a screwy tactic but thats what they do.
I have never denied that Israel also has bloody hands. I just take issue when folks use vague terms such as 'regularly' without defining said terms. I 'regularly' take trips to Berkely... but what exactly does that mean from another's perspective?

I have never labeled anyone here as an anti-Semite, and I defy you to show me one post where I have done so. If debating with me is unproductive Finn, it is probably because your modus operandi, logic, and critical thinking are sub-par and particularly wanting. Perhaps you would be more productive if you ceased living in a past which is irrevocable and begin to concentrate on the present and the many possible future's. Your perception of me in and of itself is a bit demonizing Finn... as I find the herd instinct to be both primitive and an artificial constraint.

Willravel said:
You can go on hating Palestine and siding with Israel 100% just like the idiots in the current administration who you may very well have voted for.
I don't hate anyone Will, certainly not Palestinians. I am a volunteer tutor of English to Palestinian children in the West Bank as time permits. I do not side with Israel 100%, just as you do not side with the United States 100%. Please... give us both a bit more intellectual credit than that.



 
Addendum: I did call Aryan Imperium an anti-Semite, but that was a given.



 
I was reffering to when you called our resident pacifist G>B anti semitic. I don't think I've ever seen anything so ridiculous.
 
Tashah said:
I have never denied that Israel also has bloody hands. I just take issue when folks use vague terms such as 'regularly' without defining said terms. I 'regularly' take trips to Berkely... but what exactly does that mean from another's perspective?
Semantics aside, even once is too many times, let alone many times.
Tashah said:
I don't hate anyone Will, certainly not Palestinians. I am a volunteer tutor of English to Palestinian children in the West Bank as time permits. I do not side with Israel 100%, just as you do not side with the United States 100%. Please... give us both a bit more intellectual credit than that.
I have not seen any responses that lay any blame on Israel, besides your above quote where you said Israel also has bloody hands. Why are there no mentionings of Israels attrocities? Why only the crimes of Palestinians? Is that not very much one sided? I'll admit I do not know you, your background, or your feelings. It was clear to me that people like teacher are brining a one sided racism into the discussion. You were clear in your condemnation of Palestine, while offering no clear condemnation of the actions of Israel. Was my assumption so very unfounded? I will admit that based on your willingness to teach Palestinian children that it is probably not hate I am senseing, but there is clear partisonship within your input into this discussion. Of that there can be no doubt.
 
http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/libya.html
"In 1954, Israeli agents working in Egypt planted bombs in several buildings, including a United States diplomatic facility, and left evidence behind implicating Arabs as the culprits. The ruse would have worked, had not one of the bombs detonated prematurely, allowing the Egyptians to capture and identify one of the bombers, which in turn led to the round up of an Israeli spy ring.
Some of the spies were from Israel, while others were recruited fro the local Jewish population. Israel responded to the scandal with claims in the media that there was no spy ring, that it was all a hoax perpetrated by "anti-Semites". But as the public trial progressed, it was evidence that Israel had indeed been behind the bombing. Eventually, Israeli's Defense Minister Pinhas Lavon was brought down by the scandal, although it appears that he was himself the victim of a frame-up by the real authors of the bombing project, code named "Operation Susannah."
It is therefore a fact that Israel has a prior history of setting off bombs with the intent to blame Arabs for them."


This is the sort of trick the Nazis used to get up to... Lovely ehh ?
Yet the US has always been biased in favour of Israel !
 
robin said:
http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/libya.html
"In 1954, Israeli agents working in Egypt planted bombs in several buildings, including a United States diplomatic facility, and left evidence behind implicating Arabs as the culprits. The ruse would have worked, had not one of the bombs detonated prematurely, allowing the Egyptians to capture and identify one of the bombers, which in turn led to the round up of an Israeli spy ring.
Some of the spies were from Israel, while others were recruited fro the local Jewish population. Israel responded to the scandal with claims in the media that there was no spy ring, that it was all a hoax perpetrated by "anti-Semites". But as the public trial progressed, it was evidence that Israel had indeed been behind the bombing. Eventually, Israeli's Defense Minister Pinhas Lavon was brought down by the scandal, although it appears that he was himself the victim of a frame-up by the real authors of the bombing project, code named "Operation Susannah."
It is therefore a fact that Israel has a prior history of setting off bombs with the intent to blame Arabs for them."


This is the sort of trick the Nazis used to get up to... Lovely ehh ?
Yet the US has always been biased in favour of Israel !

ROFLMAO!

Yeah, that's a credible source. :roll: I think your tinfoil hat fell off.
 
FinnMacCool said:
I was reffering to when you called our resident pacifist G>B anti semitic. I don't think I've ever seen anything so ridiculous.
You're not telling the whole story here Finn. I said there were two possibilities based on the words of Gandhi>Bush. Either he was a hypocrite, or an anti-Semite. I strongly leaned towards the hypocrite. To make this clear, here is the relevant post you refer to in its entirety...

----------

http://www.debatepolitics.com/showpost.php?p=156959&postcount=172


Tashah said:
You are also a hypocrite.
Gandhi>Bush said:
I'm sorry you feel that way.
Sorry doesn't cut it in my world. I will publicly document your hypocracy...

Gandhi>Bush Post#86 - 11-21-2005, 08:55 AM
This post of yours denotes what the State of Israel should do to assist the Palestinians:

Gandhi>Bush said:
Israel should educate Palestinian children if they so want to be educated. Technology: No one should have nukes, but I do think that helping them develop in various fields couldn't hurt. Till their soil if they need it done. Seems kind of Peace Corps-ish so I'm all for it. Give them press if that is what they need, if that is what they want. As for international power they should work for things that would benefit both Israel and Palestine.

Gandhi>Bush Post#149 - 11-28-2005, 10:34 PM
Yet this recent post of yours concerns the plight of the European/Russian Jews of World War II who desperately needed any form of assistence:

Gandhi>Bush said:
The onus is not on anyone else to save you. If you want your world to improve, it is your place to improve it, not someone in another countries.

You stipulate in Post#86 that the Palestinians deserve to recieve every possible aid and comfort from modern Israel... even till their soil. Yet you also stipulate in Post#149 that the Ashkenazi Jews of the Holocaust era deserved no assistence of any kind from anyone.

Clearly sir... you are either a hypocrite, or anti-Semitic.





----------

Not only that Finn, but another poster agreed with me in regards to Gandhi>Bush ruminations later in the same thread...

Post#257
DivineComedy said:
I have found over the years that it is almost impossible to show an ignorant hypocrite their own “Hypocracy.” I suggest you carefully look at the quotations again and get back with me on them.

----------

Clearly Finn, either you don't understand the concept of hypocracy, or you simply close your eyes to it.



 
Willravel said:
You were clear in your condemnation of Palestine, while offering no clear condemnation of the actions of Israel. Was my assumption so very unfounded? I will admit that based on your willingness to teach Palestinian children that it is probably not hate I am senseing, but there is clear partisonship within your input into this discussion. Of that there can be no doubt.
You're right Will, you make assumptions. Although I am Israeli and support my country, I do not allow that intrinsic support to either dazzle me or blind me. I strongly object to Israeli terrorist actions such as Shantilla, Qana, etc. You are too new here to draw conclusions on either my stance or my depth. I do have an advantage in this, because I have read many of your political posts at TFP.

I hate no one except the terrorists who wish to kill me or push me into the sea. Surely, even a proponent of Palestine can understand and appreciate that sentiment. What I object to most of all in these particular debates, is the penchant of most posters to delve into the past to assign blame. I daresay, there is enough blame to go around once, twice, and thrice. However, these excursions into the past have no realistic appeal and speak nothing to the present and address nothing of the future. No one can change the past... it is what it is. But we can ruminate about the present with a hope to influence the generations that follow.

I welcome you to Debate Politics Will. I look forward to further exchanges with you, and cherish the possibility that a more contemporary scenario can offer us far better insights and understandings.

~Tashah~



 
I'm glad to hear that you object as I do to actions from both sides of this. Considering that you are obviosuly more connected to this discussion in the real world, I recognise that your undersdanting is almost certianally greater than mine. Do you mind if I ask if you and your namesake on TFP are one and the same?

I hope you do not wish either side of this harm, but I still see the best solution is to put extreme control over Jerusalem. I really hate to do this, because I believe in freeomd of religion so very much, but this apex of such powerful beliefs has been and remins to be extreemly dangerous. I wish there was a world where the Plaestinians and Israelies could live in harmony, or each could have their own seperate mecca/holy land. I'd like to be able to take my family to Jerusalem. I don't feel safe in that yet.

Thank you for your kind welcome.
 
vergiss said:
ROFLMAO!
Yeah, that's a credible source. :roll: I think your tinfoil hat fell off.
http://www.mideastweb.org/lavon.htm

"The Lavon Affair
Israel and Terror in Egypt

Prologue
The Lavon affair ("Esek Habish" - the shameful affair) was one of the most bizarre chapters in Israeli history. In 1954, the Israeli secret service set up a spy ring in Egypt, with the purpose of blowing up US and British targets. The operation was code-named "Susanah." The terrorist hits were to be blamed on the regime of Egyptian President Gamal Abdul Nasser, with the purpose of alienating the US and Britain from Egypt and Nasser and somehow preventing Egyptian nationalization of the Suez canal. The ring was discovered. Strict censorship ensured that that the Israeli public officially knew little or nothing of the affair for many years. Names were not mentioned, the affair was called "Esek Bish" - the affair of shame, and key protagonists were referred to as "X" and "the third man." Unofficially and through leaks, most people knew at least the outlines of the affair.

No ingredient was omitted that could make this affair a totally morally repugnant fiasco. The affair occurred during a difficult time in Israel. Terrorist raids on Israel and reprisals had provoked a public debate about the efficacy of reprisals. David Ben-Gurion, the founding Prime Minister, had retired to his kibbutz, Sde Boker, in September 1953 claiming fatigue and age. In October 1954, an Israeli reprisal raid in Qibieh, in the West Bank, lead by Ariel Sharon, had miscarried, resulting in the death of 69 civilians. An acrimonious debate was kindled between "activists" who advocated continuing such raids, and doves, led by PM Sharett, who were against them. It was presumed that the "activists," proteges of Ben Gurion, and in particular Moshe Dayan who was IDF Chief of Staff, initiated the operation on the orders of Ben Gurion. Ben Gurion, on the other hand, disowned Defense Minister Lavon, and claimed that Lavon had given the orders. The left wing of the Labor party adopted the cause of Lavon. The right adopted the cause of Ben Gurion, Shimon Peres and Moshe Dayan. Nothing definite could ever be proven.

The prisoners of the Lavon affair remained forgotten in Egyptian jails, and were not exchanged after the Sinai campaign. Since they were mostly Sephardi Jews, their cause became a cause celebre of those who claimed that Israel, and in particular the Mapai party, discriminated against Sephardi Jews.

The arrest of the ring resulted in an affair that dominated Israeli politics for over a decade. Israel was embarrassed, as it had been caught trying to harm American and British interests for no reason and in instigating terror attacks against innocent targets. The spies who were not executed were left to rot in Egyptian jails. Meanwhile, a wave of persecution forced the emigration of tens of thousands of Jews from Egypt, leaving behind property, memories and roots. Investigations in Israel led to a trail of forged documents and perjured testimony, as everyone involved tried to implicate others. To all of the above would be added the ignominy of betrayal, as it became evident eventually that Israeli agent Avri Seidenberg (Avri Elad) had probably betrayed the operation to the Egyptians.

The spy ring was not run by the Israeli Mossad intelligence service, but rather by unit 131 of AMAN (IDF intelligence). The rationale behind creation of this group was that they would be local sleeper agents, trained in various techniques, who would remain in place and be activated only in case of war. At some point, someone decided, for unknown reasons, to activate the ring without waiting for war.

In those days the intelligence services were comparatively inexperienced, under budgeted and unprofessional, though the Mossad was to achieve notable success, mainly through luck, such as obtaining a copy of the twentieth party congress speech of Soviet Premier Krushchev. Israeli intelligence was easy to infiltrate. They had a relatively low opinion of intelligence services of Arab countries and were therefore not on their guard. Their vetting procedures for new agents were poor. Soviet and other intelligence agencies also had no little trouble recruiting agents among new immigrants.

The Egyptian spies were poorly compartmentalized. They were not trained to resist torture. The operation was not compartmentalized: the spies knew each other's identities. Thus, there was a danger that under interrogation, any one of them could betray the entire group. Worse, it is now believed that in fact they were betrayed by the Israeli agent in charge of the operation. The sensational revelations about the spy ring endangered the entire Egyptian Jewish community, which numbered about 50,000, as well as the credibility of Israel.

The Ring
The Egyptian Jews known to have been recruited for the spy ring were:

Shmuel Azar

Yosef Carmon

Victor Levy

Dr. Moshe Marzouk

Meir Meyuhas

Robert Dassa

Phillip Nathanson

Marcelle Ninio

Meir Za'afran"
 
Hey Robin, the Martian King called, he said for you to take your meds.
 
Willravel said:
I'm glad to hear that you object as I do to actions from both sides of this. Considering that you are obviosuly more connected to this discussion in the real world, I recognise that your undersdanting is almost certianally greater than mine. Do you mind if I ask if you and your namesake on TFP are one and the same?
I speak Hebrew, English, and Arabic... and I do converse with many Palestinians. I have visited almost every country in the Middle East and North Africa, plus Iran, Pakistan, and the Herat province of Afghanistan. My housekeeper in Tel'Aviv is a young Iraqi woman who spent time in Abu Ghraib under Saddam. Her husband perished there. I would say that yes, I do have a unique perspective. To answer your inquiry, I am indeed the Tashah at TFP.

Willravel said:
I hope you do not wish either side of this harm, but I still see the best solution is to put extreme control over Jerusalem. I really hate to do this, because I believe in freeomd of religion so very much, but this apex of such powerful beliefs has been and remins to be extreemly dangerous. I wish there was a world where the Plaestinians and Israelies could live in harmony, or each could have their own seperate mecca/holy land. I'd like to be able to take my family to Jerusalem. I don't feel safe in that yet.
Jerusalem is the capital city of Israel, and I do not foresee any change in this status. I do believe your fear is unwarranted. Thousands of tourists and pilgrims of all religions visit Jerusalem each and every day... without incident.

Thank you for your kind welcome.
Marhaba (You're welcome). Enjoy our wonderful community Will :smile:



 
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