Study: Obamacare Is Not Collapsing

[trouble13]

Under the ACA, all plans must have an out-of-pocket max on essential health benefits. Legally, this year that max for an individual can be no higher than $7,150--which indeed is where the bronze plan in this example has set its cap.

What that means in practice for a plan that has a $6,650 deductible is that after you've paid the deductible, you only pay 50% coinsurance on the first $1,000 of expenses incurred beyond the deductible. Because at that point you hit the OOP max. Once that happens, the plan pays 100% of your expenses the rest of the year.

When you choose an example of incurring huge expenses like $100K, the calculation of your total out-of-pocket liability really just becomes a question of what the OOP max for a plan is--because you're definitely going to hit it. You did the calculation fine, you just didn't apply the cap. You can't incur $55K in cost-sharing liability, at most you can incur $7,150 with that plan and your insurer has to pay the rest. Which in this case is over 90% of the expenses.

OK Iwas unaware of a cap being in place. What your saying makes complete sense now. Thank for clearing that up for me.

So when the cap is exceeded do you know who eats those costs. Does the insurance provider take that cost on the chin or does the gov subsidize the extra expenses? Im just curious

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[cabse5]

OK Iwas unaware of a cap being in place. What your saying makes complete sense now. Thank for clearing that up for me.

So when the cap is exceeded do you know who eats those costs. Does the insurance provider take that cost on the chin or does the gov subsidize the extra expenses? Im just curious

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Duh. Single-payor. Each American's ability to control their heathcare choices are slim to none with ACA.

When someone says ACA is unsustainable, they're talking about the absoute lack of choices for Americans on healthcare.

Now, there are some programs like Social Security and Medicaid that are capitalism-based with heavy does of socialism but ACA is the first purely socialism-based program in America.

 

[Senator Easy]

Non-Compliance and the Desires of the far right wing corporatists to continue undermining the USA, with debt, debt, debt and more debt, default, securitization, privatization, outsourcing, debt, debt and more debt, is illegal. The Affordable Care Act is the Law, we had two elections to make sure the far right wing knew it, but McConnell and his Corporatists have undermined the Entire USA

Removing rights we have, is illegal and should be treated as a war crime by every free market capitalist.

GOP red States have been pilfering ALL entitlements, General Sessions should be arresting those state cronies, as well.

Here is the Constitutional Consensus...Set EVERY Premium at...$137 per monthly earnings of $1,426; $5-$10-$15 copays...and the Far Right Wing Health Care Eradication and Deficits, start to be dissolved.

It is what the far right wing has done to the Affordable Care Act and EVERY other law, that shall remain the problem without U.S. Military Protections

Bring Our Troops Home, Protect and Defend the American People

 

[Moderate Right]

Your obedient flailing overlooks the simple facts. Besides the fact that 4 of the 5 states down to one are red states (Alaska is the other but its problems are unique) you’re also overlooking that republican have been and continue to sabotage Obamacare. Since you follow me around to whine you cant deny you’ve seen the numerous posts in thread alone. It’s just beyond dishonest and hypocritical to sabotage something then claim “see, I told you it wouldn’t work”. But yet every conservative does it. And in spite of republican sabotage, its still working.

Number of Issuers Participating in the Individual Health Insurance Marketplaces | The Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation

New Hampshire had one carrier control 90% of the market before Obamacare and then only had one carrier on the exchange the first year. check out the chart above, they went up to 5 before going down to 4. See, that's how Obamacare works in states that try to make it work.

Please make up your mind. First you say that Obamacare is doing fine then you say it is being sabotaged by Republicans. Is it doing fine or not?

 

[Fenton]

Study: Obamacare Is Not Collapsing

---

What is hurting some ACA exchanges is the uncertainty injected into the healthcare structure by Trump and hard conservatives in the GOP majority Congress. Health insurance companies usually make policy/pricing changes today that are based on 12 month industry analyst predictions. But this is impossible when the government purposefully injects uncertainty into the equations. Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R/KY) has far less than the number of GOP votes necessary to pass the Better Care Reconciliation Act of 2017. If a compromise cannot be reached in the near term, McConnell will be forced to consider Democrat amendments to craft a passable bill.

Additional: Individual Insurance Market Performance in Early 2017

Oh FFS, its been collapsing for years

From States wasting hundreds of millions of dollars on exchanges that never worked ( Oregon alone blew through over 300 million ), to failed co-ops, to failed risk corridors to insurers pulling out even after the Obama admin illegally sidetracked billions of dolllars to prop them up to deductibles being so high having insurance is pointless, ObamaCare is a disaster.

It really shows how compassionate the Left is when it comes to just how much damage their agenda does when its forced down peoples throats.

Middleclass families are struggling thanks to your healthcare law ? Too bad, **** you, the ACAs survival is far more important

 

[Vern]

Please make up your mind. First you say that Obamacare is doing fine then you say it is being sabotaged by Republicans. Is it doing fine or not?

I'll type this slower for you. Obamacare is not collapsing. Its working quite well in spite of the fact republicans are trying to sabotage it. A fact you lack the integrity to admit in your obedient flailing.

 

[Vern]

Oh FFS, its been collapsing for years

but fenton, it was supposed to have collapsed by now. Your obediently flailing requires you to ignore that Obamacare gave 20 million people insurance, lowers the deficit and improves the quality of healthcare. Why do you put your conservative agenda ahead of America?

 

[Vern]

OK Iwas unaware of a cap being in place. What your saying makes complete sense now. Thank for clearing that up for me.

So when the cap is exceeded do you know who eats those costs. Does the insurance provider take that cost on the chin or does the gov subsidize the extra expenses? Im just curious

Yes, you clearly were unaware of a OOP cap being in place. You still seem confused about how insurance works with your "take it on the chin" comment though. But I have to ask, how are you here arguing “Obamacare bad” if you don’t even understand the simple benefits like OOP max? do you understand "no lifetime caps"? do you understand "cant be refused coverage"? Do you know that you don't have to pay the deductible up front to see a doctor? I ask because a lot of conservatives say "what good is healthcare insurance if you cant afford the deductible" (yea, they too base their posts on conservative narratives instead of the facts).

There are other benefits if you're curious. Just go to the Obamacare forum.

 

[countryboy]

OK Iwas unaware of a cap being in place. What your saying makes complete sense now. Thank for clearing that up for me.

So when the cap is exceeded do you know who eats those costs. Does the insurance provider take that cost on the chin or does the gov subsidize the extra expenses? Im just curious

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Nobody eats those costs, the magic money fairy comes along and makes everything alright. And it's all FREEEEEE!!!!!

 

[MTAtech]

Seems a rather simple metric to determine failure. But if your concern is about premiums then you should be even more mad at republicans. Their sabotage did and will increase premiums.

The problem with your argument is that premiums were increasing before the "republican sabotage".

What one needs to factor out is how much of those premium increases, before GOP sabotage, was due to insurance requirements instituted under the Affordable Care Act, including preventive care without copays and coverage for young adults up to age 26 on their parents’ plans. Without that normalization, we would be comparing apples to oranges -- an old non-compliant policy that didn't provide preventive care without copays, prescription drugs, coverage for young adults up to age 26 on their parents’ plans or even ones that didn't included hospitalization, with new plans that included much more coverage.

Those increase in premiums don't take into account subsidies. According to Politifacts, "The difference can be substantial. Cynthia Cox, associate director for health reform and private insurance at the Kaiser Family Foundation, pointed to federal data showing that in Oklahoma -- Lankford’s home state -- the average plan on the marketplace cost $620 before subsidies and $79 after subsidies." Politifacts also said, "Pre-(Affordable Care Act) premiums were low because people with pre-existing conditions were denied coverage or charged deterrent rates, and insurer rating practices also made it more difficult for sick people to renew and maintain their coverage,"

Then, there is the increase in the number of people covered. According to Factcheck, "Before the ACA, states imposed different requirements on the nongroup market. The federal health care law, however, required insurers to accept anyone regardless of health status, and not vary premiums based on medical conditions. Insurers were limited to pricing based on family size, geography and, to a limited extent, age and tobacco use. There are also minimum benefits requirements. This was a major change for the nongroup market."

 

[Moderate Right]

I'll type this slower for you. Obamacare is not collapsing. Its working quite well in spite of the fact republicans are trying to sabotage it. A fact you lack the integrity to admit in your obedient flailing.

Then why are there so many places where they are down to only one insurer and many places in Nevada looking at zero insurers for 2018? Yeah, Obamacare is not collapsing.

 

[trouble13]

Yes, you clearly were unaware of a OOP cap being in place. You still seem confused about how insurance works with your "take it on the chin" comment though. But I have to ask, how are you here arguing “Obamacare bad” if you don’t even understand the simple benefits like OOP max? do you understand "no lifetime caps"? do you understand "cant be refused coverage"? Do you know that you don't have to pay the deductible up front to see a doctor? I ask because a lot of conservatives say "what good is healthcare insurance if you cant afford the deductible" (yea, they too base their posts on conservative narratives instead of the facts).

There are other benefits if you're curious. Just go to the Obamacare forum.

I have been more than patient and polite in asking you to stop being a dick. Enjoy wallowing in your ignorance and assuming things you have no clue about.

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[trouble13]

Nobody eats those costs, the magic money fairy comes along and makes everything alright. And it's all FREEEEEE!!!!!

Sign me up

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[Fenton]

but fenton, it was supposed to have collapsed by now. Your obediently flailing requires you to ignore that Obamacare gave 20 million people insurance, lowers the deficit and improves the quality of healthcare. Why do you put your conservative agenda ahead of America?

Lol......No VERN, it was supposed to be " affordable " by now.

What a disaster, average deductible for a individual on the Gold plan now exceed 6000 dollars, over 10,000 for a family.
Only you could call that a sucess.

 

[Fenton]

I have been more than patient and polite in asking you to stop being a dick. Enjoy wallowing in your ignorance and assuming things you have no clue about.

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He's not capable of being anything but.

 

[countryboy]

He's not capable of being anything but.

Lol, how apropos is it that his avatar is a Che Guevara beret wearing monopoly money man. :lamo

 

[Vern]

Lol......No VERN, it was supposed to be " affordable " by now.

What a disaster, average deductible for a individual on the Gold plan now exceed 6000 dollars, over 10,000 for a family.
Only you could call that a sucess.

Fenton, we were discussing "collapsing". I addressed your "collapsing" narrative. You and yours have been predicting collapse from before Obamacare started. Insurance companies are now getting the 2018 plans ready. So the only thing that has changed about the official and obedient conservative narrative of "collapsing" is how quickly conservatives cut and run from it. conservatives eventually always cut and run from their obedient posts but when a conservative of your stature has to do it so quickly even I'm shocked.

 

[Vern]

I have been more than patient and polite in asking you to stop being a dick. Enjoy wallowing in your ignorance and assuming things you have no clue about.

I going to eviscerate you over the next couple of replies for your posts in this thread. Its going to be hard for you but this is a debate forum so this will be for your own good. First I'm going to address your "delicate nature" of repeatedly threatening to cut and run if some arbitrary level of politeness isn't met.

Personal digs, real or imagined, have never stopped me from responding in an honest and intelligent manner. Personal digs, real or imagined, has stopped many a conservative (or conservative like poster) who has gotten in over their head and is now looking for an excuse to cut and run. Don't make excuses. Just cut and run.

Now I'm going to address how looking at the world via conservative narratives blind you to the facts.

A poster (yes, a poster, not even a conservative narrative) posted that someone gets a 100K operation with a 10K deductible has to pay 55K (10k was the deductible and 45K was his copay). He believed the patient had to pay the 10K deductible and 50% of the rest. And you believed it.

So lets say he ran up 100k in medical bills. The 1st.10k isnt covered and the next 45k would not be covered either. Is the silver plan better?

Greenbeard tried to explain it to you but his explanation assumed you understood OOP MAX. But you didn't.

I but overall is the insurance company still only paying out 45k of that persons costs or is the number significantly lower or higher.

When I did the math for the bronze plan I came up with the plan only covering 45k of the 100k billed based on the numbers the other poster provided. Are you saying his numbers are wrong?

So now Greenbeard realizes you don't even understand OOP Max and explains that.

OK Iwas unaware of a cap being in place. What your saying makes complete sense now. Thank for clearing that up for me.

So when the cap is exceeded do you know who eats those costs. Does the insurance provider take that cost on the chin or does the gov subsidize the extra expenses? Im just curious

Who eats what cost? You're still stuck on the 45K number that didn't exist. And it was only from a poster (yes, a poster, not even a conservative narrative). And you even "theorize" that govt eats those costs. GEEZZZZZUS. I'm just going to assume that "theory" is a result of the conservative narratives of "gubment takeover of healthcare". So as I've stated, starting from the standpoint of a conservative narrative or random poster's post is not a good starting point for an honest and intelligent conversation. They make you resistant to the facts.

 

[Vern]

I have been more than patient and polite in asking you to stop being a dick. Enjoy wallowing in your ignorance and assuming things you have no clue about.

I'm going to address the "dick" thing. You'd been complaining about my posts but what seemed to "set you off" was me asking what else you didn't know. You can feign outrage forever but you didn't even understand OOP Max. And then you were still confused who actually pays the bill after a patient's OOP Max was reached. So you can call my post "dickish" but when you don't even know one of the most important and widely known benefits as you obediently flail at Obamacare, I think its perfectly reasonable to inquire "what else don't you know?"

And Fenton perfectly shows my point about "deductibles" when he posts this just yesterday after I asked you if you knew

What a disaster, average deductible for a individual on the Gold plan now exceed 6000 dollars, over 10,000 for a family.
Only you could call that a sucess.

Besides the fact that fenton is deflecting from his own point, I'm still curious, do you know that you don't have to pay the deductible up front? fenton doesn't know. Do you?

Now I'm going to address "wallowing in your ignorance".

I'm not the one who didn't even know about OOP Max. Nor did I wonder if the "govt eats those costs". Since you only post that with no explanation of what exactly I'm "wallowing in", its an insult. Nothing more. Please notice that I didn't whine and threaten to cut and run. But then, I'm not in over my head.

 

[Vern]

I think I see the problem. You are tying yourself in knots with all these conditions and believing that everything is mutually exclusive. If I believe that the votes they took with Obama as president are show votes, it doesn't mean other things like them liking the power that Obamacare gives to the government can't also be true.

In the context of your post "liking their new found power" is mutually exclusive to you claiming you knew they were lying the whole time. You pondered about all the repeal votes and then lack of repeal votes. You concluded they must like their "new found power". Read your own post again

That says to me that Republicans just can't let go of their new found power over us.

And you're trying to claim "show votes" is not the same thing as "lying". I guessing you think it if you pretend "show votes" is not the same as "lying" you can continue to believe they are not mutually exclusive. If they were "show votes" then that means they weren't really trying to repeal it. They repeatedly told you they were trying to repeal it. So "show vote" equals "lying". Also, it seems to be a way to soothe your bruised ego that you were lied to for 7 years and voted for them because of those lies. Now instead of just stating what we've told you for 7 years "they're lying", you say "show vote".

so maybe you weren't "puzzled" about them lying but it sure looks like you were. You're clearly puzzled about "show votes" equals "lying".

 

[trouble13]

I going to eviscerate you over the next couple of replies for your posts in this thread. Its going to be hard for you but this is a debate forum so this will be for your own good. First I'm going to address your "delicate nature" of repeatedly threatening to cut and run if some arbitrary level of politeness isn't met.

Personal digs, real or imagined, have never stopped me from responding in an honest and intelligent manner. Personal digs, real or imagined, has stopped many a conservative (or conservative like poster) who has gotten in over their head and is now looking for an excuse to cut and run. Don't make excuses. Just cut and run.

Now I'm going to address how looking at the world via conservative narratives blind you to the facts.

A poster (yes, a poster, not even a conservative narrative) posted that someone gets a 100K operation with a 10K deductible has to pay 55K (10k was the deductible and 45K was his copay). He believed the patient had to pay the 10K deductible and 50% of the rest. And you believed it.

Greenbeard tried to explain it to you but his explanation assumed you understood OOP MAX. But you didn't.




So now Greenbeard realizes you don't even understand OOP Max and explains that.



Who eats what cost? You're still stuck on the 45K number that didn't exist. And it was only from a poster (yes, a poster, not even a conservative narrative). And you even "theorize" that govt eats those costs. GEEZZZZZUS. I'm just going to assume that "theory" is a result of the conservative narratives of "gubment takeover of healthcare". So as I've stated, starting from the standpoint of a conservative narrative or random poster's post is not a good starting point for an honest and intelligent conversation. They make you resistant to the facts.

I'm going to address the "dick" thing. You'd been complaining about my posts but what seemed to "set you off" was me asking what else you didn't know. You can feign outrage forever but you didn't even understand OOP Max. And then you were still confused who actually pays the bill after a patient's OOP Max was reached. So you can call my post "dickish" but when you don't even know one of the most important and widely known benefits as you obediently flail at Obamacare, I think its perfectly reasonable to inquire "what else don't you know?"

And Fenton perfectly shows my point about "deductibles" when he posts this just yesterday after I asked you if you knew



Besides the fact that fenton is deflecting from his own point, I'm still curious, do you know that you don't have to pay the deductible up front? fenton doesn't know. Do you?

Now I'm going to address "wallowing in your ignorance".

I'm not the one who didn't even know about OOP Max. Nor did I wonder if the "govt eats those costs". Since you only post that with no explanation of what exactly I'm "wallowing in", its an insult. Nothing more. Please notice that I didn't whine and threaten to cut and run. But then, I'm not in over my head.

I dont respond to baiting from trolls.

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[Greenbeard]

So when the cap is exceeded do you know who eats those costs. Does the insurance provider take that cost on the chin or does the gov subsidize the extra expenses? Im just curious

The insurer pays those expenses. That's priced into premiums.

The government could help out with those high expense cases (thereby bringing down premium levels) if a reinsurance program were established--which the national GOP seems to support, based on their bills. That's one of the few elements in their legislation I think would have bipartisan support. After their bills go down, that piece can be resurrected.

 

[Vern]

I dont respond to baiting from trolls.

that's exactly what other conservatives (and conservative like posters) say when they get in over their heads and cut and run from the conversation. Oddly, they cut and run from the discussion but not the thread. Anyhoo, I responded to exactly what you posted. I also pointed out how you let conservative narratives distort your view of reality. Hey I know, why don't you continue to flail that the federal govt doesn't have the authority to implement Obamacare. See how you have to ignore that the federal govt not only has the authority but an obligation to step in. That's just another example of how conservative narratives prevent you from having an honest and intelligent discussion.

So, do you know that you don't have to pay the deductible up front? Conservatives (and conservative like posters) like to complain about the "high cost of deductibles" but not one has ever answered my question. Its okay if you don't want to answer because you didn't make a point about deductibles. I know, lets ask Fenton

What a disaster, average deductible for a individual on the Gold plan now exceed 6000 dollars, over 10,000 for a family.
Only you could call that a sucess.

so fenton, this is the second deflection from your "collapsing" narrative post. I have a question in direct response to your latest post/2nd deflection. Do you know that you don't have to pay the deductible up from to see a doctor?

 

[Fenton]

that's exactly what other conservatives (and conservative like posters) say when they get in over their heads and cut and run from the conversation. Oddly, they cut and run from the discussion but not the thread. Anyhoo, I responded to exactly what you posted. I also pointed out how you let conservative narratives distort your view of reality. Hey I know, why don't you continue to flail that the federal govt doesn't have the authority to implement Obamacare. See how you have to ignore that the federal govt not only has the authority but an obligation to step in. That's just another example of how conservative narratives prevent you from having an honest and intelligent discussion.

So, do you know that you don't have to pay the deductible up front? Conservatives (and conservative like posters) like to complain about the "high cost of deductibles" but not one has ever answered my question. Its okay if you don't want to answer because you didn't make a point about deductibles. I know, lets ask Fenton



so fenton, this is the second deflection from your "collapsing" narrative post. I have a question in direct response to your latest post/2nd deflection. Do you know that you don't have to pay the deductible up from to see a doctor?

VERN is trying to contend with the realization that he's wasted thousands of hours on this site and many many years of his life defending the losing side.

Its no wonder he comes across as sullen and idignant as he does in literally every post.

 

[Erod]

Lol, anyone with a rudimentary understanding of economics knows that Obamacare is a Ponzi scheme built to collapse.