[W:4,590] Study Finds Face Masks Didn’t Slow Spread Of Covid-19

[Fledermaus]

Well until we do RCT we simply cannot answer your question. Certainly we know some masks like N-95 and N-100 work to significantly cut the risk of catching or spreading viral infections. But they also make breathing labored and raise blood CO2 levels. So their impact on a person's health is not all that certain. Does it seem to you that the CDC and medical establishment does not want the safety and efficacy tested? How else do we explain no quality research on a topic we really need to know more about?

Who do you believe the mask mandate is intended to protect?

The wearer from others?

Others from the wearer?

 

[jaeger19]

However, back in the Spring and Summer of 2020 it seems to me a RCT could have been conducted

Actually we have that data on the efficacy of face masks for the seasonal flu. So are you suggesting the evidence-based practitioners are ignoring the evidence? Is there any evidence that face masks work better for preventing CoVID-19 that the seasonal flu? It has been killing tens of thousands Americans every year for many decades.

Should we ban driving as we see tens of thousands of people dying each year in traffic accidents? Life requires taking risks.

Wow..that was fast for the " but but rct's"
I guess you are doubling down
Well let's start with the fact that you just ignored the plethora of evidence I just gave you.
By the way which included systematic reviews. Know what's higher on the evidence hierarchy ? Oh yeah systematic review and meta analysis.

But let's address your ..." but but they COULD of done an rtc on face masks in early 2020."

Okay..lets think about the design of a randomized controlled trial on the use of masks for SOURCE CONTROL. In other words does a face mask reduce the chance of an infected person giving another person the virus.

So..you need subjects who THAT YOU KNOW ARE INFECTED WITH COVID AND ARE IN THE INFECTIOUS STAGE.
hmmm. So do you get some people and purposely infect them? Hmmm that seems unethical.
So what then.. sample thousands and thousands of people hoping to find a subject that tests positive for the virus..doesn't know they are sick.. and is in the infectious stage..
Wow..seems a bit difficult huh?
But it gets better.. you can't tell the subject that they are infectious ( blinded) because if they know they are infectious they might change behavior. And perhaps not go see grandma as planned thus skewing the results.. ( gosh seems a but unethical to knowingly let an infectious person go visit grandma.)
So you then don't tell these individuals that they are infectious and you randomly assign them to wear masks or not.
Then you send these infectious people out into the world and you have to TEST EVERY SINGLE PERSON THEY COME IN CONTACT WITH FOR THREE TO FIVE DAYS AFTER CONTACT TO DETERMINE IF THEY WERE INFECTED..
OF COURSE WHILE DOING THIS YOU HAVE TO QUARANTINE EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM TO MAKE SURE THAT IF THEY GOT INFECTED IT WAS FROM THE TEST SUBJECT!
oh wait..but then these folks could have been infected earlier since the incubation period is 3 to five days.. so..the way around this is to quarantine these individuals..and then purposely expose them to the infected people...
Oh wait..we are back to purposely exposing people to infection

This is why your insistence on rtcs for source control doesn't fly. And it illustrates why other research designs are better.

Why are there not mask mandates for influenza?
Risk vs benefits.
Risk of flu..lets see..deaths per year us...38000 to 61000 estimated.
Risk of covid? 600,000 plus deaths in one year.
Then we talk hospitalizations..the overrunning of hospital systems....etc.
Pretty clear it's a different risk benefit ratio.

Should we ban driving? No we shouldn't and we don't. Instead we mandate seatbelts.aibags child car seats .traffic control devices..traffic laws..no drinking and driving..etc to mitigate the risk
.
Just like we don't demand everyone stay in their home wearing masks and social distancing..
But merely ask you to wear a mask in indoor public places.
Boo hoo
Should we get rid of traffic control devices in the name of freedom? " by God I don't think the gubment should tell me I have to stop on red! Red is for communists and by God..I ain't no commie"
Hey why not right..we all got to live with risk.,?
Think about it for more than a minute

 

[jaeger19]

Okay, let's look at the JAMA article. This review article largely ignored the RCT by Danish researcher Dr. Bundegaard, claiming it "only" examined 0.1% of Denmark's population. True but this is the case for all RCT. The Danish study had more than 3000 subjects. Yet the JAMA study authors supported their masks work argument by offering cherry picked studies with far fewer subjects. The JAMA study looked at observational data looking at the use of properly fitted N-95 masks in hospitals, which we know work and data from studies in which the type of face masks worn is not even stated. I'll go with the RCT study over the carefully selected observational data.

1. Henning Bundgaard, Johan Skov Bundgaard, Daniel Emil Tadeusz Raaschou-Pedersen, et al. Effectiveness of Adding a Mask Recommendation to Other Public Health Measures to Prevent SARS-CoV-2 Infection in Danish Mask Wearers: A Randomized Controlled Trial. Ann Intern Med. [Epub ahead of print 18 November 2020]. doi:10.7326/M20-6817

Ummm the Bundgaard study did not study source control.
How many times do you have to be told?
Cripes even the authors of tge study have pointed it out.
Sheesh

 

[JasperL]

I said they were cherry picked observational studies with no control over confounding variables. Hardly convincing scientific evidence IMO.

You can't do an RCT when the non-maskers are, per public health guidelines, putting others deliberately at greater risk. That's why the evidence is all observational.

I have not ignored the possibility that face masks might help reduce the risk of the spread from someone who is ill to someone who is not infected.

No, you just keep citing the Danish study as evidence, and it tells us nothing about the primary reason healthy people are advised to wear masks, which is to protect others if they have an asymptomatic case. You know the study is worthless for that purpose and keep peddling it anyway. When it's pointed out, you move the goal posts.

Indeed, one of my concerns ...

I don't care.

Again claiming I am lying is an ad hominem insult. You seem more interested in personally attacking me than having a civil debate. I suggest you stop that and you might learn something.

I said why you are IMO arguing dishonestly. That's not an ad hominem. Be better.

You misrepresented why they dismissed the Danish study, and they told you why, which you ignored - it's because it didn't test source control and so the study tells us NOTHING about the benefits, or not, of widespread community masking, for source control and protecting the wearer.

I have asked you several times about why we do not see the same recommendations during the flu season to wear any old mask? We know the influenza virus and the Wuhan virus are pretty much spread in the same way. If the CDC was making the same recommendations to reduce the Wuhan virus as they do for the flu I would be fine with that. Here is what the CDC recommends to deal with the flu:

Interim Guidance for the Use of Masks to Control Seasonal Influenza Virus Transmission | CDC

Role of masks for controlling influenza when suboptimal immunization of the public could increase the frequency of influenza infection - CDC

www.cdc.gov

COVID =/= the 'flu.' That's the argument of morons and trolls and hacks.

Furthermore, your link says this:

"A combination of infection prevention control strategies is recommended to decrease transmission of influenza viruses in healthcare settings. These include source control (immediately putting a surgical mask on patients being evaluated for respiratory symptoms)"

And CDC in that document repeatedly recommends masks for SOURCE CONTROL. What's your point? CDC recognizes that paper masks are effective for source control for 'the flu' and for COVID. It's recommended for all of us to wear masks during COVID outbreaks because up to half of those infected with COVID don't know it. That's not true with 'the flu.'

 

[JasperL]

The first thing to know is that deaths due to COVID-19 and the flu are not counted in the same way. This means comparing the numbers isn’t as straight forward as we would like. Indeed, deaths caused primarily by the flu and COVID-19 or the true infection fatality rate (IFR) is likely not all that different for the average seasonal flu and COVD-19.

LMMFAO. LOLOLOLOLHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

That's a good one. Can you give us a cite, Mr. Researcher? Surely you're not pulling that right out of your rear end, so let's see the evidence!!!

The IFR for children is likely several times higher for the flu than for COVID-19.

Cite please?

Since we do not expect healthy kids to die from other causes it is likely our estimate of the true IFR is more accurate in kids and young adults than it is for older and sicker people. It is in the older and sicker folks that we are getting a lot more deaths counted as "Deaths with CoVID-19" that would not have been counted as "Deaths with Flu". Why?

How do you explain the explosion in deaths from all causes?

[snipped a bunch of baseless garbage for brevity]

That's a series of incredibly ignorant statements or a lie. What you'd have us believe is that thousands of doctors and others are lying on death certificates, in a massive effort to engage in defrauding the federal government, and you have no evidence of this.

Tell us some more about RCTs where the study would knowingly put innocent bystanders at greater risk of death and disease. That's a great way to show us all you're arguing in good faith!! LOVE THOSE STORIES!! TELL US ANOTHER ONE!!!

 

[JasperL]

Well until we do RCT we simply cannot answer your question.

LOLOLOL!!!!! Tell us Mr. Researcher (or is it Dr. Researcher? ) how we're going to do an RCT when the non-mask group will intentionally put innocent bystanders at risk of death and disease.

 

[JasperL]

Well the CDC is assuming facts not in evidence. They are speculating that flimsy face masks protect others. That is not an evidence-based claim however. We simply do not have any credible evidence that wearing the flimsy paper surgical masks or cloth masks significantly cut the risk of catching COVID-19. The FDA requires RCT before a new drug is allowed to be sold? Why? Because the RCT are needed to establish the benefits outweigh the risk. The drug companies would love it if they did not have to do those expensive RCT trials. People who sell what they call food supplements do not have to prove safety and efficacy and the result is millions of Americans are wasting money of supplements that may not only not make them healthier but may actually hasten their deaths. For all we know some face masks my cause more harm than benefit?

Seriously, how are you going to do an RCT when the non-maskers will by definition need to be 1) infected, 2) the researchers know they're infected, and 3) then breath maskless on presumably innocent bystanders, and 4) the researchers would then test the innocent bystander, or perhaps dozens of them - even better!!! - to see if they were infected by a study participant who was required to not wear a mask as part of the research design. These maskless people willingly spreading COVID to innocents are a critical part of the study, in fact. The 'baseline' as it were, with which to compare those exposed to COVID-positive mask wearers, who'd you'd also willingly send out into the world versus, you know, quarantining them as required by ethics and health guidelines.

Should be a fascinating study to run!!! Will the funding include the settlement for the lawsuits the infected will file and win because the study intentionally exposed them to a maskless, COVID-positive participant, who was willingly not quarantined but instead, as per the study design, deliberately allowed to infect others? Might make it a tad more expensive than your average RCT I'd think.

 

[Jason Warfield]

Correlation still does not equal causation.

You do understand that your statement can be used against your position, right?

 

[jaeger19]

Reality Checker just asked you for evidence and you danced and pranced and made excuses because you want doctors' opinions and majority opinions to be accepted in the absence of science. There is a majority opinion in Islam that Mohammed was a prophet and in Christianity that Jesus rose from the dead and on MSM that it's OK to use their power to depose a president. None of that makes it true. Consensus opinion s often wrong and when you can't point to ONE state that has lower Covid deaths because of masks, you have a problem, not to mention no double-blind peer-reviewed studies that masks stop many people from getting infected.

Instead, you want to just bully everyone like Christians do and did into believing what you do by stomping your feet and pounding your chest that you are a doctor and I should believe you because of initials behind your name in the absence of real evidence.

Umm..I banged out ( linked) to three systematic reviews of tons of scientific studies that show masks are effective in source control..i.e. in preventing an infected person from infecting others.

The science is clear.
Which is why your medical providers are all pleading with you to follow the science and vaccinate and wear a mask.
But you know more right?
I mean..you were wrong about it being a hoax..wrong about it being the flu..wrong ..oh I don't know how many times about the epidemic " being over"
Wrong about masks..wrong about vaccines..wrong about just about everything..
But you know more.
You don't have a shred of valid scientific evidence..but you know more.
Now..if it was just you? Heh.
But you are on here and I am sure out in the community spouting things that will get people infected and in the hospital and maybe dead.
You need to stop.

 

[CLAX1911]

You do understand that your statement can be used against your position, right?

Not really my positions based on absolute fact.

If you need a vapor respirator that seals against your face to block vapor. Holding a piece of fishnet in front of your face loosely so that when you exhale it goes all around it doesn't quite meet that standard

 

[Daddyo]

But they want to blame the governor, even though Louisiana has a higher rate yet.

They worry about rates. As if it matters. As long as there are hospital beds to care for the sick we are headed in the right direction. We are over 85 percent either vaxxed or natural immunity. Very soon this thing is over. Future infection will mostly be mild flu like deals.

Two of my employees just went through it. No vax and very mild symptoms. My sons ex girlfriend and her sister just got off quarantine from it. Both of them were vaxxed. Mild and moderate symptoms for them. Florida is currently having a high number of vaxxed people getting it! Mild but positive.

 

[Daddyo]

Just stop. You look supremely stupid at this point.

Trust me everyone who I have shared our back and forths with sees it the exact opposite! Frankly they think you are punking me.

Looking stupid to you means I'm absolutely correct and you can't rebut or refute what was said!

Which is why you didn't point out the mistakes in MY pants pee analogy and instead opted to attack me yet again.

 

[Paradoxical]

Umm..I banged out ( linked) to three systematic reviews of tons of scientific studies that show masks are effective in source control..i.e. in preventing an infected person from infecting others.

The science is clear.
Which is why your medical providers are all pleading with you to follow the science and vaccinate and wear a mask.
But you know more right?
I mean..you were wrong about it being a hoax..wrong about it being the flu..wrong ..oh I don't know how many times about the epidemic " being over"
Wrong about masks..wrong about vaccines..wrong about just about everything..
But you know more.
You don't have a shred of valid scientific evidence..but you know more.
Now..if it was just you? Heh.
But you are on here and I am sure out in the community spouting things that will get people infected and in the hospital and maybe dead.
You need to stop.

If you had any evidence at all, you would keep it in a folder or bookmark like I do and post it, but you don't. You have anecdotal stuff and crap that shows masks stop coughs and sneezes. You need to stop lying that you have evidence. You have opinions and recommendations from doctors is all. Instead of doing this BS you should be honest and tell everyone the truth, which is that cloth and surgical masks do NOT effectively stop Covid because the public doesn't wear them properly AND the material (as shown by science) stop only less than half of Covid on an optimal basis.

instead, YOU, Fauci, the CDC, and others in your similar profession lie to placate the masses that masks are OK while people continue to get sick and die from Covid. Be a man....recommend only the N95 masks. Break away from the tribal mentality that is destroying humanity.

 

[Fledermaus]

Trust me everyone who I have shared our back and forths with sees it the exact opposite! Frankly they think you are punking me.

What did your cat say?

Looking stupid to you means I'm absolutely correct and you can't rebut or refute what was said!

Everything you have regurgitated has been debunked many, many times.

At this point your position on masks deserves nothing more than mockery.

Which is why you didn't point out the mistakes in MY pants pee analogy and instead opted to attack me yet again.

I tend to attack your message as repetitious rote regurgitation.

"Your" pee analogy was actually someone else's you mutated due to your inability to understand the message.

You still haven't answered (intelligently and logically) why medical professionals world wide recommend masks and reject HCQ and Ivermectine.

You have complained about some nebulous "control" you imagine these unrelated entities are trying to force one you. That is supremely laughable as the WHO, the CDC, the FDA really don't give a damn about "controlling" you and do care about the heath of the world/America.

 

[Fledermaus]

They worry about rates. As if it matters. As long as there are hospital beds to care for the sick we are headed in the right direction.

Except (as has been posted repeatedly on this forum) hospital beds are at a premium.

We are over 85 percent either vaxxed or natural immunity.

Incorrect as usual.

Very soon this thing is over. Future infection will mostly be mild flu like deals.

Thank you Doctor... You are a doctor, right?

Two of my employees just went through it. No vax and very mild symptoms. My sons ex girlfriend and her sister just got off quarantine from it. Both of them were vaxxed. Mild and moderate symptoms for them. Florida is currently having a high number of vaxxed people getting it! Mild but positive.

Anecdotal at best.

 

[Fledermaus]

If you had any evidence at all, you would keep it in a folder or bookmark like I do and post it, but you don't. You have anecdotal stuff and crap that shows masks stop coughs and sneezes. You need to stop lying that you have evidence. You have opinions and recommendations from doctors is all. Instead of doing this BS you should be honest and tell everyone the truth, which is that cloth and surgical masks do NOT effectively stop Covid because the public doesn't wear them properly AND the material (as shown by science) stop only less than half of Covid on an optimal basis.

instead, YOU, Fauci, the CDC, and others in your similar profession lie to placate the masses that masks are OK while people continue to get sick and die from Covid. Be a man....recommend only the N95 masks. Break away from the tribal mentality that is destroying humanity.

 

[snakestretcher]

Then show us the quality scientific research demonstrating the efficacy of paper surgical masks and/or cloth face masks for preventing the spread of SARS-CoV2 from infected people to uninfected people?

I am a seeker of truth and justice and a big fan of individual liberty and personal responsibility.

I worked as licensed health professional for decades. Part of my job was to critically assess scientific evidence and determine what is and is not most likely true or reality.

People who live in glass houses ought not be throwing stones at others.

I have not seen it and as far as I know there is not a single randomized controlled clinical trial proving that cloth and/or paper surgical masks actually significantly reducing the risk of people with an active Wuhan virus infection spreading it to others. If it is not too much trouble perhaps you could simply post what you believe is the most compelling data from an article published in a peer reviewed medical or scientific journal proving the efficacy of cloth masks or paper surgical masks for preventing contagion of SARS-CoV2 (or any other respiratory virus spread in the same way as SARS-CoV2) from an infected person to uninfected people?

No. Are you a troll of some sort?

I am not a member of any tribe or ideological cult. Indeed, I have spent a lot of time and energy exposing the the irrational beliefs of zealots. Have I posted something that was clearly based on faith and not based on my understanding of what the objective scientific evidence does and does not support? If so please point that out. Absent any credible evidence to support your opinion I am not inclined to believe your opinion has any credibility.

What formal scientific training have you had in any given field?

 

[snakestretcher]

Actually, the flaw in your argument is not recognizing the CDC's mask recommendation were based on no credible evidence that respiratory virus contagion can be effectively reduced by wearing any old face mask. Nor was there any credible evidence that 6 feet of social distancing worked either. Maybe instead of making recommendations without credible research data to support them they should have been funding RCT to determine what does and does not actually work in the real world. It is clear that even mandating people wear any old mask led a lot of people to believe they worked far better than the best data even today suggests they do. The result was many people wore those flimsy masks and put themselves at far greater risk of catching the Wuhan virus. That was bad public policy then and remains so today.

Public policy ought be based on credible data and not perhaps politically motivated speculation.

There's no scientific proof that gravity exists either, but we know it works...

Gravity: It's Only a Theory | National Center for Science Education

[Textbook disclaimers are down, but not out. This satirical look at "only a theory" disclaimers imagines what might happen if advocates applied the same logic to the theory of gravitation that they do to the theory of evolution.]

ncse.ngo

 

[snakestretcher]

Not really my positions based on absolute fact.

If you need a vapor respirator that seals against your face to block vapor. Holding a piece of fishnet in front of your face loosely so that when you exhale it goes all around it doesn't quite meet that standard

Better let every surgeon on the planet know they've been doing it wrong for as long as they've been wearing those ill-fitting paper masks. I'm sure you'll be respectfully received.

 

[CaughtInThe]

never forget who wasn't safe, preached to not be safe, helped spread this virus more and KILLED more kids than should have died.

 

[CaughtInThe]

Better let every surgeon on the planet know they've been doing it wrong for as long as they've been wearing those ill-fitting paper masks. I'm sure you'll be respectfully received.

there's really only a few reasons for people to preach to NOT be safe during a pandemic...

• they're stupid
• they're politically dug in
• they don't care about killing...
  • kids
  • teens
  • adults
  • seniors
• they're paid
• they're people from other countries (Iran, Russia, etc)

 

[Mach]

"Deaths with COVID-19" may not be primarily caused by the Wuhan virus.

Based on all your peer-reviewed research right? Covid's case mortality rate is significantly higher than the flu (and that's with a shut-down, masking, and social distancing in 2020 before vaccination!) and its being treated as a national health crisis accordingly.
You, like many conservatives, for whatever sadistic reason, seek to confuse and gaslight, spread misinformation and otherwise hurt confidence in our national healthcare strategy. It's insane.

 

[jaeger19]

If you had any evidence at all, you would keep it in a folder or bookmark like I do and post it, but you don't. You have anecdotal stuff and crap that shows masks stop coughs and sneezes. You need to stop lying that you have evidence. You have opinions and recommendations from doctors is all. Instead of doing this BS you should be honest and tell everyone the truth, which is that cloth and surgical masks do NOT effectively stop Covid because the public doesn't wear them properly AND the material (as shown by science) stop only less than half of Covid on an optimal basis.

instead, YOU, Fauci, the CDC, and others in your similar profession lie to placate the masses that masks are OK while people continue to get sick and die from Covid. Be a man....recommend only the N95 masks. Break away from the tribal mentality that is destroying humanity.

I provided three links to systematic reviews of mask research.
This is the highest level of evidence there is on the hierarchy of evidence..
The studies I linked to are far from " anecdotal ".
A systematic review is the highest level of evidence because it statistically takes the results of multiple a studies..which increases the N .and .reduces the chance of selection bias.. .
And the studies included research of community mask wearing...which by virtue of this means it includes people who do not wear the masks correctly.
And the overwhelming scientific evidence is that masks work as source control.
They reduce the rate of covid spread in real world population.

I realize that you cannot understand the science.
So I appealed to common sense.
Your medical providers. The ones you rely on to help you when you hurt yourself and when you get sick overwhelmingly recommend you get vaccinated and wear a .mask when in indoor public places.
These are people you HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE HAVE MORE EXPERTISE IN MEDICINE THAN YOU.
And yet you cannot even bring yourself to question why you know more than these experts.

Tell us all why we recommend vaccination and masks to '" placate" the masses?
What is the goal of your local medical community.?

Please explain.

 

[Paradoxical]

I provided three links to systematic reviews of mask research.
This is the highest level of evidence there is on the hierarchy of evidence..
The studies I linked to are far from " anecdotal ".
A systematic review is the highest level of evidence because it statistically takes the results of multiple a studies..which increases the N .and .reduces the chance of selection bias.. .
And the studies included research of community mask wearing...which by virtue of this means it includes people who do not wear the masks correctly.
And the overwhelming scientific evidence is that masks work as source control.
They reduce the rate of covid spread in real world population.

I realize that you cannot understand the science.
So I appealed to common sense.
Your medical providers. The ones you rely on to help you when you hurt yourself and when you get sick overwhelmingly recommend you get vaccinated and wear a .mask when in indoor public places.
These are people you HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE HAVE MORE EXPERTISE IN MEDICINE THAN YOU.
And yet you cannot even bring yourself to question why you know more than these experts.

Tell us all why we recommend vaccination and masks to '" placate" the masses?
What is the goal of your local medical community.?

Please explain.

There are NO scientific studies on mask-wearing....NONE. The best they have are phone surveys. NO ONE follows people around 24/7 to determine their mask-wearing habits. Stop the lying Jaeger. I am tired of it. Your title as doctor does not give you a license to lie and act as an apologist. Initials behind your name does not make you an expert because in today's internet age, people can learn MORE than you know about this field. I have presented you with reams of links from OTHER experts anyway which you just dismiss out of hand.

 

[jaeger19]

There are NO scientific studies on mask-wearing....NONE. The best they have are phone surveys. NO ONE follows people around 24/7 to determine their mask-wearing habits. Stop the lying Jaeger. I am tired of it. Your title as doctor does not give you a license to lie and act as an apologist. Initials behind your name does not make you an expert because in today's internet age, people can learn MORE than you know about this field. I have presented you with reams of links from OTHER experts anyway which you just dismiss out of hand.

Yeah..I linked to three systematic reviews.
Verifiable scientific evidence from studies on mask effectiveness.


You haven't provided a link of valid scientific evidence against the plethora of evidence I and others have linked to.

But I think it's interesting that you think that you know more about medicine than a medical expert because " you have the internet".
But please answer.. why do you think your community medical providers are recommending vaccination and masks to placate you?
What is the goal of your local medical community. ?
Please explain.