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A fake driver's license is a different issue from a fake ID. A fake driver's license can be used to illegally operate a motor vehicle. An 18 year old having a bogus ID for some college that says he's 21 for purpose of getting into a bar is a completely different matter.
He's an idiot for not looking at the actual person and their age on the ID first. Then doing his check if there is an issue. The ID wasn't fake, according to the story, so then what made him think the ID was fake? If you are getting a fake ID, you are likely going to memorize the info on there. That is the stupidest way to find an underage person trying to enter a bar/pub. It's an excuse.
OK, your opinion is noted. This guy OWNS the Pub, it is HIS liquor license, and therefore his entire investment in the business is on the line every day based on how well they screen out underage patrons. And according to the accounts I've seen, he has had few to no citations for serving underage kids at a club in the heart of a college campus full of smart, tech-savvy people with access to color printers etc. so it's odd you're questioning the methods he's using to weed out fakes. It's his pub, his method WORKS, and that's ultimately the bottom line for a Pub owner.
If you'd do it differently, great, but irrelevant.
And what's it an "excuse" for? I have no idea why you're working so hard to dismiss the owner's statement about his interaction with Johnson.
His ID was not fake.
There is no evidence that he was drunk
Exactly, rogue. The bottom line is, we have no idea, and we don't know anything, really. And his discussion with the bar bouncer and his status as an honor student have exactly zero to do with this.
You have multiple people including the bar owner say he didn't appear intoxicated.
He's an honor student.
He was CORDIAL to the bouncer.
It is NOT illegal to try to enter a public establishment, their "policy" is not enforcable law.
What was the officers REASONABLE suspicion to detain this gentleman.
again, honor student, no record, "leader", "cordial", apparently not intoxicated, broke no laws. ends up bloody on the ground being arrested.
But we do have some ideas - we have the witnesses who say he wasn't being belligerent. We have the bar owner seconds before he was apprehended stating the kid was polite, courteous, and showed no signs of intoxication, and that he calmly walked away from being denied entry. We have NO witnesses saying he was belligerent. All the available evidence points in one direction - he wasn't drunk or raising hell.
And we know that within minutes, perhaps 1 minute, he's tackled and bloodied. Is the assumption that this honor student, on the honor committee, student leader, a long history of respect for authority, transformed into stark raving thug in the few seconds between the Pub and being approached by ABC agents?
The ID was questioned by the owner of the pub, indicating to a law enforcement agent nearby that it was suspicious. This provides the LEO with a reasonable suspicion that it could be fake since he was refused entry into a bar because of his ID. (The LEO wouldn't know that the owner didn't even bother to first check the age/date on the ID and see that he wasn't of age according to that in the first place.) Second, not being drunk does not mean not drinking. The LEO claims he was drinking (hence why he was released upon being "sober" after he was arrested). Those underage cannot drink, not just can't drink til drunk.
According to the guy it was "moments" before, but that doesn't mean it actually was. There is absolutely no evidence that it was that immediate. Is "moments" seconds or a minute or more? How distracted was the guy? People don't necessarily always judge time correctly especially if they were distracted.
In Virginia, there is no legal requirement that customers entering a restaurant where alcohol is served must be over the age of 21. So Johnson had every right to attempt to enter Trinity so long as he was using his lawful identification. Trinity’s decision to enact a 21 and over policy after 10 p.m., for busy evenings, does not make Johnson’s attempt to enter illegal.
He was turned away from the pub because the bouncer/owner refused his ID. This would easily be suspicious to any LEO nearby and lead them to suspect that the ID he had might be fake. They couldn't know the other facts, that the owner/bouncer didn't even look at the age on the ID telling him that the person was underage, nor that the kid simply forgot his zip code change. That gives them reasonable suspicion though of something illegal, fake ID, and potentially that the ID had been used to obtain alcohol illegally. This was reason to detain the student and gather more information.
In Virginia, there is no legal requirement that customers entering a restaurant where alcohol is served must be over the age of 21. So Johnson had every right to attempt to enter Trinity so long as he was using his lawful identification. Trinity’s decision to enact a 21 and over policy after 10 p.m., for busy evenings, does not make Johnson’s attempt to enter illegal.
The only evidence you are using is "he hasn't been cited". That doesn't mean it works, only that they don't necessarily check inside the bar enough to ensure "it works".
And when we ignore laws such as drinking age or having a fake ID (which the suspicion involved here was having a fake license, not college ID), we see that other crimes go up. However, when the lesser laws are enforced (not necessarily with harsh punishment, just enforced), larger crime rates drop as well. Generally, this is seen as happening because it locks up those who would work there way up or because it catches those who have already done something and are wanted or suspected for something else, or can be identified by information gathered/had.
Wrong, two private citizens talking, and one walking away is not "REASONABLE SUSPICION"... again, the pubs policy is not state law, nor is it "Reasonable suspicion" a crime has taken place.
What was his BAC.?
Link to "released when he was sober" please.
OK, you sound like a Police spokesman.
This was a party night, in a college town, the pub was in the heart of campus, he's a college student. If they started vigorously enforcing drinking laws at UVa, half the school would graduate with a criminal record or on some kind of probation. So a little bit of time and place perspective is in order, even presuming the "broken window" school of policing is at all effective.
again, wrong.
or suspicious.
Yes, a private conversation that is still within an officer's hearing is able to be used as "reasonable suspicion".
And here is the bail statement.
The Cavalier Daily :: Johnson's warrant of arrest shows two misdemeanor charges
About the sixth or seventh document scanned. "Bail Set <can't determine the first few letters> $1500.00 when sober"
And the third one down has this checked: Other: release on an unsecured bond when sober
According to the guy it was "moments" before, but that doesn't mean it actually was. There is absolutely no evidence that it was that immediate. Is "moments" seconds or a minute or more? How distracted was the guy? People don't necessarily always judge time correctly especially if they were distracted.
A couple of years ago the Va ABC surrounded some college girls in plain clothes and drew guns on them after carrying "what appeared to be a case of beer" whole looking under age, except it was bottled water
Elizabeth Daly, 20, was arrested on April 11 after she and two classmates bought sparkling water, cookie dough and other supplies for a sorority fundraiser at the Harris Teeter in Barracks Road Shopping Center. ABC agents mistook the sparkling water for beer. Agents drew guns, swarmed Daly's car, and arrested her.
On the night of April 11, three young women left the Harris Teeter grocery store in Charlottesville’s Barracks Road Shopping Center. A female plainclothes ABC agent, looking for underage alcohol possession, observed the women and suspected they were underage and in possession of beer. The agent and her partner approached the vehicle the women entered, displayed their badges and requested identification. Four additional agents nearby, some of whom had just arrived from working another assignment, responded and surrounded the vehicle. As the events unfolded, one agent landed on the hood of the vehicle, one drew a handgun, and a third struck a window with a flashlight. Fortunately, no one was seriously injured.
His turning his ID away based on the kid not knowing his zip code does make it suspicious. If he had turned the kid away because his ID said "he is under 21", then it would not have been nearly as suspicious, if it could be at all.
That story was hilarious.
I just have to post it so we can all laugh again at the stupidity of some people:
Virginia ABC: Agents Violated Policy in Clash with UVA Students - NBC29 WVIR Charlottesville, VA News, Sports and Weather
All that for some for some supsected "beer"? :lol: :doh
So it's the same officers that first claimed he was acting "belligerent" to the bouncer, claiming "release when sober", yet don't check BAC nor charge him with underage intoxication.
He was arrested at 4:21, he was released at 6:01
The Cavalier Daily :: University student, Honor Committee member Martese Johnson arrested
So this "beligerent", "intoxicated" person "sobered" up to be released within an hour and a half?
**** doesn't happen like that.
They weren't enforcing the laws on campus or at private residences, but rather in public drinking establishments. And they should be enforcing fake ID laws everywhere they are suspected.
Within 6 hours of the actual incident. The incident happened at 12:30, not 4 something when the arrest happened. They had to take him to the hospital first.
Did they over hear that part of the conversation? DId they miss the very cordial conversation and explanation after that?
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