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Strategic war on terror.. either no longer possible or never was possible

G

gdalton

Thank you gunny, as always you bring a vast amount of insight into a world that I, along with many, am ignorant of. I believe in listening to those who have experience in the topics I am trying to learn.


Robin, I will agree with you all day, every day, about border control issues, but I can't bring myself to agree that our fight in Iraq is futile. It may not the best strategy and it does show many flaws in our intel and our administrations plans for the war, that I will give you. As far as Mr. Kelly is concerned, I have shown you examples of his acknowledging the threat that Iraq represented before the war, yet you refuse to use anything but examples of how he changed his mind after we invaded. Hind sight is useless in changing the past. I believe you come off as quit abrasive with people who argue a point different from your own, then you turn around and accuse them of being closed minded for not agreeing with you. This type of behavior is not productive in changing someone’s mind. It's hard to get someone to agree with you when you keep telling them they are too stupid or bullheaded to understand your argument.
 

robin

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gdalton said:
Thank you gunny, as always you bring a vast amount of insight into a world that I, along with many, am ignorant of. I believe in listening to those who have experience in the topics I am trying to learn.
Yes his 'Fox News world view' is so informed & impartial isn't it :lol:
gdalton said:
Robin, I will agree with you all day, every day, about border control issues, but I can't bring myself to agree that our fight in Iraq is futile. It may not the best strategy and it does show many flaws in our intel and our administrations plans for the war, that I will give you. As far as Mr. Kelly is concerned, I have shown you examples of his acknowledging the threat that Iraq represented before the war, yet you refuse to use anything but examples of how he changed his mind after we invaded. Hind sight is useless in changing the past. I believe you come off as quit abrasive with people who argue a point different from your own, then you turn around and accuse them of being closed minded for not agreeing with you. This type of behavior is not productive in changing someone’s mind. It's hard to get someone to agree with you when you keep telling them they are too stupid or bullheaded to understand your argument.
You gave me an example of David Kay in 2004, not Dr David Kelly !
Dr David Kelly committed suicide in 2003
 
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G

gdalton

robin said:
You gave me an example of David Kay in 2004, not Dr David Kelly !
Dr David Kelly committed suicide in 2003

You are correct I did give you examples of Kay and not Kelly, sorry about that just let me pull my head out of my a…… Ok there we go, now lets see if I can find something for you, oh here we go.

British weapons expert David Kelly, who died in July 2003 from cuts to his wrist, said in October 2002 that Iraq had banned weapons and posed an immediate threat. In a BBC interview never aired, Kelly spoke only a month after the weapons dossier was delivered to Parliament.

Kelly's interview lies somewhere in the middle of Tony Blair's claim that Iraq WMDs could be deployed in 45 minutes and anti-war proponents who believe Iraq did not have any weapons at all. The late scientist said that he believed the weapons were there, and could be used in a matter of days or weeks.

"Yes there is," Kelly responded to the question of whether there was an immediate threat. "Even if they're not actually filled and deployed today, the capability exists to get them filled and deployed within a matter of days and weeks. So yes, there is a threat."

http://www.atsnn.com/story/30448.html
 

VTA

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robin said:
For christs sake gysgt... none the people that have set off bombs in our countries are from Iraq !!!!!
Holy **** I can't believe your intransigence !!!!
Have you read the link about Bush & spin on WMD ?
Do you ever look at things from another point of view other than that of a blinkered ex military man & patriotic fool ?

And neither are the majority of insurgents we are fighting in Iraq.
Stop thinking in simplistic terms of nationality and country of origin. It's a cultural war that, before we dictated the terms of the war, i.e. centralizing the enemy and killing him 100 - 1, was almost impossible to get a handle on.

To put it a little cold and rather tersely, we got to choose the battleground, and Iraq is it.

Put a period at the end of Sarge's posts; he hit the nail right on the head.
 

robin

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Never heard of your source ?????
I'm more inclined to trust the BBC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3088723.stm

"he said the government had "sexed-up" its dossier on Iraq to boost public support for the war."

"He accused the government of inserting a claim into the dossier that Saddam Hussein was capable of deploying weapons of mass destruction within 45 minutes"

On top of all this its' a disgrace the way a man of his integrity & intelligence, way above & beyond vulgar lying political slimeballs, was thrown into the bull pit at an enquiry like a sacrificial lamb.

G Dalton please be less naive & start showing contempt for your self serving lying ego tripping policiticans... or 'Trecherous cretins' as Frank Zappa referred to them.
As for Navy Pride & GY Sgt... they are beyond help. So naive & dumb & patriotic I think they see the world through black & white tinted spectacles with stars & stripes on.
Their years in military institutions is equivalent to them having a non invasive lobotomy :lol:
Mere cannon fodder for lying politicians & arms dealers & manufacturers.
 
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MSgt

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robin said:
For christs sake gysgt... none the people that have set off bombs in our countries are from Iraq !!!!!
Holy **** I can't believe your intransigence !!!!
Have you read the link about Bush & spin on WMD ?
Do you ever look at things from another point of view other than that of a blinkered ex military man & patriotic fool ?


IRAQ - IS - A - PART - OF - THE - MIDDLE - EAST!!!!!!!

I'm not an "ex-miltary" man. I've been in 13 years and 6 months. I have fought these extremists in Somalia. I have had conversations with Muslims in Egypt, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Oman, and Iraq. I have fought extremists in Iraq (two tours of 5 months and 8 months). I have talked to Muslims in Ethiopia. I have studied this garbage for over a decade. (12 years to be exact).

I know what I'm talking about.

Patriotism has nothing to do with it.

A fool is an individual that thinks he can fix the issues of terrorism by arresting individuals here and there, close down schools, and beefing up border securities, while ignoring their failing civilization.
 
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G

gdalton

robin said:
Never heard of your source ?????
I'm more inclined to trust the BBC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3088723.stm

"he said the government had "sexed-up" its dossier on Iraq to boost public support for the war."

"He accused the government of inserting a claim into the dossier that Saddam Hussein was capable of deploying weapons of mass destruction within 45 minutes"

On top of all this its' a disgrace the way a man of his integrity & intelligence, way above & beyond vulgar lying political slimeballs, was thrown into the bull pit at an enquiry like a sacrificial lamb.

G Dalton please be less naive & start showing contempt for your self serving lying ego tripping policiticans... or 'Trecherous cretins' as Frank Zappa referred to them as.
As for Navy Pride & GY Sgt... they are so naive & dumb & patriotic I think they see the world through black & white tinted spectacles with stars & stripes on :lol:

I have plenty of contempt for our politicians.

As for Kelly, the argument he had was not that Saddam didn't have WMD's but rather it would take days, not minutes for him to prepare those weapons for use. He believed Iraq to be a threat but he also believed the government was exaggerating the time it would take to deliver that threat. Notice how the story you posted mentions that Kelly was upset with government for reporting that it would take 45 minutes to launch an attack, they never say he believed there where no weapons at all.
 

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GySgt said:
IRAQ - IS - A - PART - OF - THE - MIDDLE - EAST!!!!!!!

I'm not an "ex-miltary" man. I've been in 13 years and 6 months. I have fought these extremists in Somalia. I have had conversations with Muslims in Egypt, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Oman, and Iraq. I have fought extremists in Iraq. I have talked to Muslims in Ethiopia. I have studied this garbage for over a decade. (12 years to be exact).

I know what I'm talking about.

Patriotism has nothing to do with it.

A fool is an individual that thinks he can fix the issues of terrorism by arresting individuals here and there, close down schools, and beefing up border securities, while ignoring their failing civilization.
No... a fool is someone that turns themself into a killer/hitman & sets themselves up as mere cannon fodder for lying politicians & arms dealers & manufacturers, by joining the military.
You've appear to have learned nothing from Vietnam, which served no purpose in the war on communism in the end. The reds didn't overun Asia after you got kicked out did they ?
Just another example of fly swatting in one place to try & resolve a worldwide problem. Only trouble is 2 million innocents got killed in the crossfire. I feel sorry for the men that fought & died in two WW's for freedom & morals & liberty then their country behaved like that. Dropping mutagenic substances on peasants. Carpet bombing cities. Another example of arms manufacturers rubbing their hands with glee. Torching villages just becuase 'there may have been communists there' ****ing blitkrieg in the name of freedom !

Incidently, that war was started on the basis of Tonkin gulf ruse just like Hitler pretended to be attacked by The Poles as an excuse to invade them... charming !
Truman should have listened to Minn's offer of friendship in 1945.
But as that opportunity to make Nam as sweet as S Korea was lost, then you should have kept your noses out when the French brutal colonial thugs deservedly got kicked out.
 
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gdalton

robin said:
No... a fool is someone that turns themself into a killer/hitman & sets themselves up as mere cannon fodder for lying politicians & arms dealers & manufacturers, by joining the military.

Watch your self, I have tried to keep an even keel in the face of your belligerency, but once you begin to disrespect the people who risk their lives to keep us safe I can no longer bight my tongue. So enjoy the view of your colon and I hope one day soon you get a chance to make the above statement to an individual who has volunteered to help instead of sitting around ******* and moaning and offering no real solutions.
 

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gdalton said:
Watch your self, I have tried to keep an even keel in the face of your belligerency, but once you begin to disrespect the people who risk their lives to keep us safe I can no longer bight my tongue. So enjoy the view of your colon and I hope one day soon you get a chance to make the above statement to an individual who has volunteered to help instead of sitting around ******* and moaning and offering no real solutions.
I stand by all my posts. Read them & learn. They are the truth of the matter. I showed respect for men that fought Hitler becuase they were fighting in the right place.
I show little respect, contempt in fact for many brainwashed US servicemen since then having read accounts of Vietnam & other post WWII century American fiascos abroad.
The stage was set in Post WWII American foreign policy by this asshole.. George Kennan........
U.S. State Department Policy Planning Study #23, 1948:
" Our real task... is to devise a pattern of relationships which will permit us to maintain this position of disparity [U.S. military- economic supremacy]... To do so, we will have to dispense with all sentimentality and day-dreaming... We should cease to talk about vague and...unreal objectives such as human rights, the raising of the living standards, and democratization... we are going to have to deal in straight power concepts. The less we are then hampered by idealistic slogans, the better."
George Kennan, Director of Policy Planning. U.S. State Department. 1948.

Not to mention the dictators the USA has supported.
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/US_ThirdWorld/dictators.html

What you are advocating in the Iraqi war is equivalent to saying the place to fight the Nazis was in outer Mongolia.
The terrorists are in & have come from Yorkshire, London, Bali, Morroco, Eritrea, Algeria, Hamburg, Suidi, Philipines, Pakistan etc etc....... oh look, Iraq is not on the list. Well I never. Can't seem to get it can you. Muslims bread like rats. There are hundreds of millions of them. How the hell is swatting them in one small country going to make one jot of difference ?
It's just serving to recruit more & more into their ranks when they see photos of your soldiers torturing them in Abu Ghrab.
 
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robin said:
No... a fool is someone that turns themself into a killer/hitman & sets themselves up as mere cannon fodder for lying politicians & arms dealers & manufacturers, by joining the military.
You've appear to have learned nothing from Vietnam, which served no purpose in the war on communism in the end. The reds didn't overun Asia after you got kicked out did they ?
Just another example of fly swatting in one place to try & resolve a worldwide problem. Only trouble is 2 million innocents got killed in the crossfire. I feel sorry for the men that fought & died in two WW's for freedom & morals & liberty then their country behaved like that. Dropping mutagenic substances on peasants. Carpet bombing cities. Another example of arms manufacturers rubbing their hands with glee. Torching villages just becuase 'there may have been communists there' ****ing blitkrieg in the name of freedom !

Incidently, that war was started on the basis of Tonkin gulf ruse just like Hitler pretended to be attacked by The Poles as an excuse to invade them... charming !
Truman should have listened to Minn's offer of friendship in 1945.
But as that opportunity to make Nam as sweet as S Korea was lost, then you should have kept your noses out when the French brutal colonial thugs deservedly got kicked out.

Why do I even give an individual like you any time? Your whole views on history are so screwed up. It's like you have a personal text book that you study from.

We were not "kicked out" of Vietnam. We left. The same will happen with Iraq. We will simply leave.

Soviet Communism was not defeated by attacking Moscow. Instead it was combatted on battle fields like Korea and Vietnam. It was diplomatically backed off in Cuba. It was indirectly repelled in Afghanistan. It was held behind a cement wall with American troops stationed on the other side. Victory didn't come from a conventional surrender rather than an economic break down through several different levels of competition with the West.
 

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robin said:
I stand by all my posts. Read them & learn. They are the truth of the matter. I showed respect for men that fought Hitler becuase they were fighting in the right place. What you are advocating in the Iraqi war is equivalent to saying the place to fight the Nazis was in outer Mongolia.
The terrorists are in & have come from Yorkshire, London, Bali, Morroco, Eritrea, Algeria, Hamburg, Suidi, Philipines, Pakistan etc etc....... oh look, Iraq is not on the list. Well I never. Can't seem to get it can you.


You hold no truths. You are a pessimistic do-nothing that loves to bash America. As far as the countries that we all know about...What's your country doing about it? What's the rest of Europe doing about it? What's the EU doing about it? What's the UN doing about it? Oh I forgot...countries like yours have to have their hand held.

It's you who don't get it. All those places of attack have a root and that root is the Middle East and the Arab's fanatic version of Islam.
 

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robin said:
The terrorists are in & have come from Yorkshire, London, Bali, Morroco, Eritrea, Algeria, Hamburg, Suidi, Philipines, Pakistan etc etc....... oh look, Iraq is not on the list.

So? Should we have declared war on those places? Wouldn't it be better served to fight in the geographic heart of this evolutionally retarded ideology's birthplace?

Isn't strategy a main topic in your initial post...?
 

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VTA said:
So? Should we have declared war on those places? Wouldn't it be better served to fight in the geographic heart of this evolutionally retarded ideology's birthplace?

Isn't strategy a main topic in your initial post...?


I believe "roll back" is the answer. This ideology war is being fought on the fringes. Iraq is well and good. We got rid of Saddam, but if we are serious about dealing with these extremists, we have to start where they are waging war on the local populaces. What makes me right, is the fact that these fringe places have calmed down since Iraq. All of "Allah's" servants have been redirected. After Iraq, we will still have a problem with the violent spread of Islam, but at least with a hopeful successful Iraq, we will have a few tactical advantages in the heartland.

Going to war where ever an attack has occurred is senseless. We might as well go to war in New York.
 
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robin

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GySgt said:
Soviet Communism was not defeated by attacking Moscow. Instead it was combatted on battle fields like Korea and Vietnam.
No it wasn't, Vietnam made no difference as I've mentioned. The reds didn't overrun asia when you left.
GySgt said:
It was diplomatically backed off in Cuba. It was indirectly repelled in Afghanistan.
Where you armed Bin Laden & his cronies LOL
Soviet communism was defeated by the economic imperitives that faced Gorbi.
Same in China it's NOT the US military that's brought about change, it's spontaneous economic reforms that are bringing about change...

GySgt said:
It was held behind a cement wall with American troops stationed on the other side. Victory didn't come from a conventional surrender rather than an economic break down through several different levels of competition with the West.
What has the Berlin wall got to do with fly swatting in Iraq ?
They are two totally different types of situations. One with a clear cut front line & the other with no front line or borders.

GySgt said:
You hold no truths. You are a pessimistic do-nothing that loves to bash America. As far as the countries that we all know about...What's your country doing about it? What's the rest of Europe doing about it? What's the EU doing about it? What's the UN doing about it? Oh I forgot...countries like yours have to have their hand held.
Not quit right old chap actually. That should read as follows.... I am realist do-nothing that is of no use that loves to bash America or anyone else for that matter when they are completely in the wrong.

GySgt said:
As far as the countries that we all know about...What's your country doing about it?
Completely the wrong thing... off on a crusade 3,000 miles away in a country that had nothing to do with 911 & when the London bombers were right on our doorstep... worse in fact... in our living room.

GySgt said:
It's you who don't get it. All those places of attack have a root and that root is the Middle East and the Arab's fanatic version of Islam.
Or Yorkshire or London mosques.
 

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Originally posted by Robin:
'Patriotism' is the dangerous psychological phenomenon whereby people become convinced everything their country does abroad is right... for no better reason than it's their country that's doing it... Robin 9/11/05
Robin, you're a better Patriot than all the neo's combined! Have you ever thought of dual citizenship?
 

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robin said:
No it wasn't, Vietnam made no difference as I've mentioned. The reds didn't overrun asia when you left.
Where you armed Bin Laden & his cronies LOL
Soviet communism was defeated by the economic imperitives that faced Gorbi.
Same in China it's NOT the US military that's brought about change, it's spontaneous economic reforms that are bringing about change...


What has the Berlin wall got to do with fly swatting in Iraq ?
They are two totally different types of situations. One with a clear cut front line & the other with no front line or borders.

Not quit right old chap actually. That should read as follows.... I am realist do-nothing that is of no use that loves to bash America or anyone else for that matter when they are completely in the wrong.

Completely the wrong thing... off on a crusade 3,000 miles away in a country that had nothing to do with 911 & when the London bombers were right on our doorstep... worse in fact... in our living room.

Or Yorkshire or London mosques.

Complete absurdity.

Yorkshire or your London mosques preach the teachings of the Middle Eastern Arab. They are not just doing their own thing. WAKE UP! As long as the Middle East continues it's ideology, all those places you mentioned will be targets. You cannot kill the flow of drugs if the drug lords are left alone! This means Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Afghanistan, and Pakistan. America's attacked two. What's anybody else doing? Closing up their local mosques?

With regards to Soviet Communism....wars cost money. This means their side too. They could not keep up with us after so many years of funding their need to spread and the need for Asian coimmunists to spread. The "STAR WARS" program was the last nail.

Who said the Berlin Wall had anything to do with Iraq? I didn't. I was talking about communism, since you brought that up too.

Why do you care what we do anyway? Be mad at your own country.
 
G

gdalton

Gunny, I believe we are wasting our time arguing with batmans butt buddy over here.

Roby, have you ever heard the analogy that if you believe everyone around you to be a-holes, then most likely you are the a-hole. Does that about some up your interactions with others?
 

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GySgt said:
Yorkshire or your London mosques preach the teachings of the Middle Eastern Arab.
duhhhh uhhh um I think I knew that already. So you think invading Iraq is going to stop Muslim extremists in Britain WTF !
How ludicrous & the opposite of the truth. The truth is Iraq is one reason they gave for their bombing of London, not that that justifies what he evil morons did.
GySgt said:
They are not just doing their own thing. WAKE UP! As long as the Middle East continues it's ideology, all those places you mentioned will be targets. You cannot kill the flow of drugs if the drug lords are left alone! This means Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Afghanistan, and Pakistan. America's attacked two. What's anybody else doing? Closing up their local mosques?
They can torch them, for all I care. I ****ing sick of UK muslims.

"Star wars was the last nail" !!!! WTF. You aren't too bright are you GY ? They nearly scuppered the Nuclear arms talks. Go read this to see just how completely wrong you are..... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/summit/archive/oct86.htm

GY You just want spout your neo religious view of your glorious America... that is a view that America never ever does anything wrong & you make sure you never really read anything or take on board anything, unless it supports that narrow view.

GySgt said:
Why do you care what we do anyway? Be mad at your own country.
I am mad at Blair.

Thanks Billo ;)
 
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robin said:
Never heard of your source ?????
I'm more inclined to trust the BBC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3088723.stm

"he said the government had "sexed-up" its dossier on Iraq to boost public support for the war."

"He accused the government of inserting a claim into the dossier that Saddam Hussein was capable of deploying weapons of mass destruction within 45 minutes"

On top of all this its' a disgrace the way a man of his integrity & intelligence, way above & beyond vulgar lying political slimeballs, was thrown into the bull pit at an enquiry like a sacrificial lamb.

G Dalton please be less naive & start showing contempt for your self serving lying ego tripping policiticans... or 'Trecherous cretins' as Frank Zappa referred to them.
As for Navy Pride & GY Sgt... they are beyond help. So naive & dumb & patriotic I think they see the world through black & white tinted spectacles with stars & stripes on.
Their years in military institutions is equivalent to them having a non invasive lobotomy :lol:
Mere cannon fodder for lying politicians & arms dealers & manufacturers.


So you're inclined to trust BBC huh? It was the slimebag reporting by Andrew Gilligan that drove Dr. David Kelly to his suicide. After the inquiry Gilligan was forced to resign from BBC AND the two top execs of BBC were also forced to resign because they supported Gilligan. They were mad drunk with power thinking they could bring down PM Blair with their biased reporting.

Now let's deal with the wrongheaded signature of yours about patriotism. You have patriotism confused with Nazi style NATIONALISM. Nationalism can be evil as it was when Hitler was trying to conquer the world.

Patriotism is being proud of the values that the citizens of any particular country share........it does not mean my country right or wrong as you so wrongly have stated.

You should show a little more respect for the members of this forum. As it is you are making a fool of yourself because of your blind arrogance.
 

cnredd

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gdalton said:
Gunny, I believe we are wasting our time arguing with batmans butt buddy over here.

Roby, have you ever heard the analogy that if you believe everyone around you to be a-holes, then most likely you are the a-hole. Does that about some up your interactions with others?

:naughty

Could we start using a little more civility please?

Don't make me break out the Moderator robes....
 

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hawk2 said:
Now let's deal with the wrongheaded signature of yours about patriotism. You have patriotism confused with Nazi style NATIONALISM. Nationalism can be evil as it was when Hitler was trying to conquer the world.
or the USA running half the world & behaving like Nazis in the process of supporting the interests of her multi national corps at the expense of anyone that happens to get in the way.
http://www.omnicenter.org/warpeacecollection/dictators.htm
http://home.iprimus.com.au/korob/fdtcards/Cards_Index.html
http://www.notinourname.net/war/911-context-white-28oct03.htm
http://www.soaw.org/new/

hawk2 said:
Patriotism is being proud of the values that the citizens of any particular country share........it does not mean my country right or wrong as you so wrongly have stated.
If you share such noble moral values then why do you turn a blind eye to the crimes of the USA ?
Why do people like you & GYsgt just want spout your neo religious view of your glorious America... that is a view that America never ever does anything wrong & you make sure you never really read anything or take on board anything, unless it supports that narrow view ?

hawk2 said:
You should show a little more respect for the members of this forum. As it is you are making a fool of yourself because of your blind arrogance.
People get respect from me when they earn it or deserve it. You have started at -10 on the scale.
 
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gdalton

cnredd said:
:naughty

Could we start using a little more civility please?

Don't make me break out the Moderator robes....

Sorry there redman, I lost my cool, I will try harder to not let others agitate me so much.
 

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Robin

Why didn't you deal with my response to your lie about the BBC and Dr. Kelly. Is it because you know your lie is indefensible? You said you stand by ALL your posts.........I have just spotlighted one of your lies for all to see.

You will not receive any further responses from me because I have nothing but contempt for your bullying arrogance, complete lack of integrity, and your failure to comply with the rules of civil discourse
 

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hawk2 said:
So you're inclined to trust BBC huh? It was the slimebag reporting by Andrew Gilligan that drove Dr. David Kelly to his suicide.
That doesn't take away the fact that the drubbing Kelly was given in the public enquiry by politicians was a major factor in his suicide. In other words the scurrilous way they treated him lead to his suicide.

It also doesn't mean the BBC was factually wrong. It was right in it's facts about Kelly... even if it was trecherous of one individual in the BBC to have released the facts.

So the facts from the BBC are not lies are they & I'm not a liar am I & I'm not wrong to trust the BBC from a purely factual point of view am I ?

Your calling me 'arrogant' & a 'liar' is simply not true & means you are failing to comply with rules of civil discourse so please don't reply. I don't want one from you.
 
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