• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Sticks and carrots, socialism and capitalism.

So you're going to use violence against the owners and against any other employees who wish to work for the company. Nice to see your true colors showing.

You saw my colors when I said nation-states get the guillotine too. Violence is inherent to virtually every great movement in human history, including the birth of America as a nation. It is an inescapable and inevitable aspect of change.


No, they aren't. Socialist ideals revolve entirely around the democratic ownership of production by workers. Capitalism does not refer to all trade, any more than a command economy refers to all regulatory agencies.
 

Unions are a product of the workers banding together so they have more power as a group than they do individually. The state didn't create the unions, so drop the libertarian apologetics.
 
The individual people are capitalist in a market economy but the business itself is socialist. Details matter.

Oxford and American heritage were some of the very few got the definition correct.

You missed this definition because I doubt that you knew that the Stabndofrd dictionary exists, https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/socialism/
 
The individual people are capitalist in a market economy but the business itself is socialist.

lol, you have got to be kidding. Greedy capitalists running a socialist business? Good grief.
 

Maybe you need a little education; put down the textbook, step out of the ivory tower and look at the real world manifestations of socialism and other collectivist forms of government.
 
lol, you have got to be kidding. Greedy capitalists running a socialist business? Good grief.

It isn't my problem that you don't understand facts. I have tried to educate you but you want binary answers that are easy to understand. Market socialism is a hybrid economic system.
 
A market economy and socialism are incompatible.
 

Well said. I'd add only that a person is free to move as far up the ladder as his abilities, motivations, and ambition takes him.
 
lol, you have got to be kidding. Greedy capitalists running a socialist business? Good grief.

What's so hard to understand? A business can be collectively owned by its workers and yet still turn a profit.
 
Not necessarily. A collectively owned and operated business can still function in a market economy.
Sorry, I don't think so. Socialism isn't about a gathering of collectives, it's about the government controlling production and distribution. The presumes it sets prices and production - the antithesis of a free market.
 
You saw my colors when I said nation-states get the guillotine too.

Leftists have always been bloodthirsty. The good news is how often they end up murdering each other.

No, they aren't. Socialist ideals revolve entirely around the democratic ownership of production by workers. Capitalism does not refer to all trade, any more than a command economy refers to all regulatory agencies.

Those coops you mentioned exist for personal profit, not for the good of the community. If you're working for profit in a market economy in order to enrich yourself, then you're a greedy capitalist - end of story.
 
Maybe you need a little education; put down the textbook, step out of the ivory tower and look at the real-world manifestations of socialism and other collectivist forms of government.

I don't have panic attacks discussing collectivist ideas because civilization is part of a very interconnected and interdependent society in the same way that a forest is not just a group of trees but an interconnected and interdependent biological organism. This is a basic building block of human civilization. if we are not an interconnected civilization that forms a society then we would not need to create a constitution on how the society is oragnized, the rights of the people, plus their responsibilities toward others. You should have been exposed to this concept in grade school social studies class because it is the foundation of a stable society. The more advanced we as a society are and the more people that live on earth the more collectivist the society must become if it is to be stable.

Our rights cannot be unlimited because that would destroy the society that we live in. The critical aspect is where we draw the lines between the individual rights of the people and their responsibilities to others and the power of the state to enforce them and to protect the rights of minorities from being trampled by any other group.
 
What's so hard to understand? A business can be collectively owned by its workers and yet still turn a profit.
Only if it exists within a capitalist free market.
 
Unions are a product of the workers banding together so they have more power as a group than they do individually.

Sure, and the company has a right to fire all of them at once.
 
Sorry, I don't think so. Socialism isn't about a gathering of collectives, it's about the government controlling production and distribution. The presumes it sets prices and production - the antithesis of a free market.

Thete are some things the free market is horrible at
 
None of which addresses my point.
 
What's so hard to understand? A business can be collectively owned by its workers and yet still turn a profit.

It can also be cooperatively owned by the customers as well as the employees. I am a member of a small organic market that operates in this way. It's $15.00 a year and the members get a 10% discount on the total, even when it is open to the public, but they don't get the discount. There are member meetings every 90 days to discuss ideas and new products to be carried.
 
Last edited:
May an ABSOLUTELY FREE MARKET, but those haven't existed for a long time.

I would never live in a country that had no socialism....or no capitalism
 
None of which addresses my point.

You have an idea that anything that is socialist must be owned by an authoritarian state and probably funded with tax dollars, which is not true. there are others who have attempted to educate you but you refuse to learn because you have an idea in your head that you refuse to both admit is wrong and learn.
 
Sorry, I don't think so. Socialism isn't about a gathering of collectives, it's about the government controlling production and distribution. The presumes it sets prices and production - the antithesis of a free market.

You're thinking of state capitalism, not socialism. Collective ownership can still exist in a market economy, obviously, because there are businesses that operate on this plan in the United States. I don't see why anyone would bother trying to deny that.
 
Sure, and the company has a right to fire all of them at once.

No, the unions have a right to organzine. The courts have ruled that is part of the free association clause in the First Amendment. They are not slaves to your business. A business that can bust unions in the name off additional greed is bad for the stability of the society.
 
Cookies are required to use this site. You must accept them to continue using the site. Learn more…