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Sticks and carrots, socialism and capitalism.

It's continuing failure to produce successful results in real life. "Smaller groups" and "a region in Spain" aren't a nation of 330 million people with a 17 trillion dollar economy.

I grow weary of the idea that because it works in Spain, Norway or some other tiny populated country it will naturally work here.

Yeah, it will work here, if the goal is to collapse our nation's economy. ;)
 
So you're for toll roads?

ALL roads, by the way, you need to pay a toll just to leave your driveway.
No half measures.
House on fire? Better hope you paid your "fire subscription" then, because I refuse to pay to put out the fire at your house.

These purity ponies are always gung ho until they are forced to abide by their own purity dogma.
 
I grow weary of the idea that because it works in Spain, Norway or some other tiny populated country it will naturally work here.

Yeah, it will work here, if the goal is to collapse our nation's economy. ;)
It's designed to fail. you know the old saying about a camel being a horse designed by committee? Well, a ****hole is an economy designed by Socialists. :cool:
 
What do you call the ideologue where the government wants to give their citizens freebies such as loan debt forgiveness and government subsidized health care?

Those are not freebies. We pay for those with our taxes.
 
I grow weary of the idea that because it works in Spain, Norway or some other tiny populated country it will naturally work here.

Yeah, it will work here, if the goal is to collapse our nation's economy. ;)

How exactly would it collapse our economy?

We haven't changed our economy since the banks collapsed our economy twice.
 
What do you call the ideologue where the government wants to give their citizens freebies such as loan debt forgiveness and government subsidized health care?

I know you are more intelligent than that. How exactly is the government going to give it's citizens "freebies" if nobody pays for it?
 
Socialism does not mean that the means of production and distribution are controlled by the government. You seem to be convinced that all forms of socialism are authoritarian, but there are many that are not authoritarian and some that go as far as to deny that the power of the state exists. Read Kropotkin, Bakunin or Chomsky. That seems to be a lie that you have been fed by Dennis Prager and other conservative sources. It is not my fault that you have been fed and have chosen to believe lies.

Social anarchism - Wikipedia

I swear to God this Dennis Pragerism is...how do I put it? It's almost like the new dildo or something.
I mean, dildos might be more closely regulated than Dennis Prager. He's not a university, he's not accredited, he doesn't even have any kind of bonafides that would even define him as anything but cheap revisionism dressed up as proto-factoidism.
(i.e. "Hitler was a leftist, USA is not a democracy, etc.)
 
And how would "social ownership" be implemented in real life? Remember we're talking national scale here.
So you agree it's social ownership and that government ownership is just a subset of that.

Public education is NOT a socialist invention. Not every service a government provides is "Socialist". People have banded together for mutual benefit since the dawn of time.

Public education is everyone giving taxes involuntarily to governments (state and federal), who then redistribute that money to educate everyone's children for free.
When it's convenient, you call it socialist, when you applaud it or want to ignore it, you call it "banding together"? Be consistent.
Do the same with healthcare is what many Democrats propose..., suddenly it's "socialism run!!!". Suddenly it's inherently evil and destined to fail, when not only do you applaud it for education, but its been implemented around the world with success?

It's stupid, and hurts us all to be inconsistent like this. Labels are for political parties to wedge issues and rule through manufactured consent. Don't be a puppet.

All good and well. And this may work well in small groups, but I can't see it scaling well to a country of 325 million people, with 10's of thousands of business. When the entity is small each member can easily express his views and the entire population can vote an issue. As it grows that becomes harder and decisions have to be deferred to governing class and pockets of experts are required to deal with the increasing complexities. Eventually, a permanent professional ruling class evolves. Sound familiar?

That's not what I'm communicating. I'm saying we use both capitalistic elements and socialist elements throughout our economy, to good effect. Companies often "go public" once they reach a certain size...evil? Hardly. Trying to label socialism as evil/bad is absurd in every meaningful way.
Remember, most of the historic negative association with communism and socialism involves dictatorships or single party tyrannical governments that used those labels...communism/socialism, to try and placate the people.
We're never giving up our multiple party, multiple branch, checks and balances, elected officials, rule of law (much of which Trump pisses on daily) way of life, any time soon.
I also don't know anyone suggesting we do.

But democrats suggesting part of our health care system that is not already "socially owned", should move more towards that...just like our education system, is not some radical crazy evil socialist doomed-to-fail idea. It's in a realistic and global context, quite ordinary and sensible. You can debate the specifics, sure, but this whole anti-socialist stuff is for suckers.
 
So you agree it's social ownership and that government ownership is just a subset of that.
No. I'm asking a question.


Mach said:
Public education is everyone giving taxes involuntarily to governments (state and federal), who then redistribute that money to educate everyone's children for free.
When it's convenient, you call it socialist, when you applaud it or want to ignore it, you call it "banding together"? Be consistent.
Have I ever called it "socialist"? I'm consistent
Mach said:
Do the same with healthcare is what many Democrats propose..., suddenly it's "socialism run!!!". Suddenly it's inherently evil and destined to fail, when not only do you applaud it for education, but its been implemented around the world with success?
What? The federal government running an entire sector of the economy, is a tad different that the feds role in education; which is primarily run on a local level.
Mach said:
It's stupid, and hurts us all to be inconsistent like this. Labels are for political parties to wedge issues and rule through manufactured consent. Don't be a puppet.
Ironic you'd accuse ME of being the puppet while spewing the prog party line.


Mach said:
That's not what I'm communicating. I'm saying we use both capitalistic elements and socialist elements throughout our economy, to good effect. Companies often "go public" once they reach a certain size...evil? Hardly. Trying to label socialism as evil/bad is absurd in every meaningful way.
Remember, most of the historic negative association with communism and socialism involves dictatorships or single party tyrannical governments that used those labels...communism/socialism, to try and placate the people.
We're never giving up our multiple party, multiple branch, checks and balances, elected officials, rule of law (much of which Trump pisses on daily) way of life, any time soon.
I also don't know anyone suggesting we do.
You're pulling the classic conflation of Socialism - which is primarily an economic system with other services our government, at various levels provides. Police, fire protection, infrastructure, etc. are NOT socialist, societies have been providing them in one form or another since people started banding together.
Mach said:
But democrats suggesting part of our health care system that is not already "socially owned", should move more towards that...just like our education system, is not some radical crazy evil socialist doomed-to-fail idea. It's in a realistic and global context, quite ordinary and sensible. You can debate the specifics, sure, but this whole anti-socialist stuff is for suckers.
Again MY education system is locally controlled, so your analogy collapses. Call it socialism or not the idea of thousands of unelected, virtually unassailable bureaucrats controlling nearly 15% of our economy is terrifying.
 
Capitalism relies on positive incentives. Create a better or cheaper product or service, and people will voluntarily give you their money in exchange for it. If enough people give you their money in exchange for what you are producing, you might get rich.

This is childlike, delusional ideology.

It's not what capitalism is. It's like saying that rabbits are like the one in "Alice in Wonderland" - nice to read, but not the truth.

Not understanding what capitalism is, is a big problem for many people. First and foremost, is understanding that it's a very broad term that prevents discussion of issues. Mom and pop shop selling candy, energy company destroying the atmosphere, blowing up mountains to make a buck, a group who sell crack cocaine to children, a dangerous factory filled with child workers paid very little - all "capitalism".

It would be like trying to discuss issues where the only word you could use was 'economic system'. So the US, Mao's China, Stalin's Russia, and Sweden - all just 'economic systems' as opposed to groups of people who have no economic system, like cavemen who live like animals. How useful for discussion of issues.

Spoiler alert: some forms of 'capitalism' are very good at creating wealth; whether that results in a 'good system' where people prosper like the two women in your photo, or in tyranny and things like the lower photo, depends on the TYPE of capitalism, not just being 'capitalism'.

One of the many issues with 'capitalism' is how it allows for some groups of people to be exploited to benefit other groups. If you can buy nice things cheaply because of a factory of slave workers overseas, what do you care? If you live nicely in the early US because of slave labor, who cares? If you're an owner of a large corporation that does a lot of harm to make money and it lets you live as a jet-setter, who cares?

Who doesn't care is "capitalism". None of these problems are solved by the system of capitalism - they're only solved by people having good values, and the public having the power to enforce those values against the people who want to profit by violating them, i.e., democracy and a free press to inform them.

Don't like the factories being filled with cheap child labor? It's laws, not capitalism, that prevents it. The only language capitalism speaks is "price", and if causing harm increases profit and reduces prices, it wins. It's a system with built-in huge incentives for harm and tyranny for most, and the only way to prevent the harm and tyranny are for there to be systems to limit capitalism - laws and democracy.

And you can see where these thing have worked in the past. Horrors of meat-packing plants were exposed, and a public backlash led to reform (including the FDA to regulate the industry). Environmental harm was exposed, and a public backlash led to reform (including the EPA to regulate the industry). Child labor was exposed and a public backlash led to reform (including labor laws to regulate the industry).

It's a very large topic, the topic of the types of capitalism - Democratic Capitalism, Predatory Capitalism, Unregulated Capitalism or 'Naked Capitalism', and many more issues, but let's not forget your other false, simplistic argument.

Socialism relies on negative incentives. People who work for the state are primarily interested in keeping their jobs. They are paid the same amount regardless of what they produce or how they produce it, because the money for their pay is taken from people coercively, via taxation.

Socialism is such a tortured word, it also means nothing and everything. A public water system the government runs to insure everyone has affordable if not free water, and the tyranny of Mao's China, are both just "socialism" to you.

But you're even worse than THAT, you are in the 'taxation = coercion, evil end it' group. Hint: every society that has ever existed and likely will ever exist, has taxation. Like the two words above that you simplistically use for broad things, there are 'good' uses of taxation, like those water systems, and 'bad' uses of taxation, and that's the issue, not 'taxes = coercion, evil'.

(And before you launch into yet another delusional rant about how much better we'd be if the wonderful, efficient private sector were in charge of water, not 'socialist' systems, no, we wouldn't. And in fact, water is beginning to be seen as a profitable commodity to try to control by predatory capitalists - as the people of Bolivia could tell you, where private companies bought the rights to control water, and created huge price increases many couldn't afford,which 'capitalism' didn't care about but the people did, and rioted, and there was still enough democracy to respond by undoing the move to privatization instead of just killing the people, which is what capitalism would have done because of its incentives.)

1/2
 
There is 'good socialism' and 'bad socialism'. The pure word 'socialism' means there are no privately owned industries. The 'means of production' are all 'owned by the state'. While in some imaginary world with a benevolent state - like imaginary worlds with a 'benevolent dictator' or 'benevolent capitalist owners' - this might work, we've seen - as we've seen in all three cases - where it doesn't, and you get 'tyranny'.

We could discuss how and why so-called 'socialist' attempts have 'gone wrong', but baby steps since you're far from being ready for that discussion.

As you leave the kindergarten of economic discussion, you should start to understand some basic ideas about just how critical 'the power of the public' is, and 'the power of the public interest', in getting your top picture and not your bottom picture, and how any system that looks more like the top picture doesn't fall into the simple words "capitalism" or "socialism", how those aren't the issues, really.

And before we could even start discussing THAT, we should mention the abuse of these words 'capitalism' and 'socialism' by interested parties to attack choices in which everyone does better - as JFK popularized, 'a rising tide lifts all boats' - instead of choices looking like your bottom picture but a few do well, where 'a rising tide lifts all yachts', by claiming that if you try to choose everyone doing better, the result is Maoist China (spoiler alert: it's a lie).

Really, I think discussing this is too much for what you're ready for, so let's try one idea to help you get started: yet another word that's used simplistically is power. Power is power, and that includes 'private' and 'government' power. You're likely, if you're like the common mistake ideologues, fixated on 'private power=good' and 'government power=bad'.

And that's a terribly wrong twisting of the issues. You need to learn to use other words and ideas for economic issues, such as 'public good', and how you can have more or less power for that public good - which is just one 'interest'. The owner who wants to have the factory of child workers to profit more has one incentive, and the 'public good' that doesn't want that has a different incentive, and power decided which one wins.

Instead of getting into that, either, yet another issue is the functioning of that 'democracy and free media' to play a critical role in limiting the harmful parts of capitalism: we're seeing challenges to both like never before in the US, with the creation of a massive opinion manipulation industry, consisting of propaganda factories who create messages designed to oppose the public interests, by organizations such as 'The Heritage Foundation' (though they're certainly on the side of some interests, like that owner of the child labor factory), and mass media to spread them - including with simplistic propaganda like the image you posted, because the propaganda worked against you; and the corruption of our democracy, where especially the Republican Party is 'wholly owned' by a small number of powerful and wealthy interests, instead of serving the interests of their constituents, who are manipulated to vote for them anyway.

Now, everything above is about how things have been.

We're now facing a whole new set of issues, in which the problem isn't things like limiting the exploitation by these interests, but where the economic 'need' for most people at all starts to disappear - where the interest of unregulated capitalism is simply to kill off many people, one way or another, in the face of things like automation.

The way I've longed explained is is a thought experiment. Imagine one person invented a machine that allowed them to create unlimited products for free. Suddenly, the whole system of creating products becomes unneeded, but you still have a public needing products. He could be a 'nice guy' and make everything everyone 'needs', or not so nice and just drive everyone else out of business, always able to make products to sell for lower prices than others, as he gradually accumulates all the wealth. How would you design economic and political systems in that case? The answers you come up with help show the sorts of 'balancing' needed for 'everyone to do well'.

And those systems are becoming more and more needed now, in the face of labor obsolescence. We're leaving the economic challenges of the past, in which everyone could either go farm, or go join the army of the powerful person to try to 'create wealth' by protecting them and plundering others, and the situation is very different, though the needs for a home, food, and medical care have not.

I've only been able to give hints at the issues here, but it should help point out some errors.

2/2
 
I swear to God this Dennis Pragerism is...how do I put it? It's almost like the new dildo or something.
I mean, dildos might be more closely regulated than Dennis Prager. He's not a university, he's not accredited, he doesn't even have any kind of bonafides that would even define him as anything but cheap revisionism dressed up as proto-factoidism.
(i.e. "Hitler was a leftist, USA is not a democracy, etc.)

Years ago, I made my 'signature' line in a forum, "Ideology is the enemy", to describe how people are so susceptible to becoming blinded by accepting simple, false ideology that makes them fervently defenders of wrong things. Much earlier, there was a saying, "A little knowledge is dangerous".

When you combine these weaknesses with the interests of powerful forces who want to take advantage of them to get people to support harmful things that benefit those powerful force, the result is things like the Prager propaganda and the people who fall for it. This is why better education is needed, and as Colbert said, 'facts have a liberal bias'.
 
Leftists have always been bloodthirsty. The good news is how often they end up murdering each other.



Those coops you mentioned exist for personal profit, not for the good of the community. If you're working for profit in a market economy in order to enrich yourself, then you're a greedy capitalist - end of story.

Okay, retard. Nice to see you still don't understand the difference between capitalism and trade.
 

Uh oh, you mad bro?

Nice to see you still don't understand the difference between capitalism and trade.

The term market socialism is as dumb and incoherent as the term state capitalism, which was also concocted by idiot leftists as they try to distance themselves from the miserable reality of socialist economies.

From that train wreck of an article:

wiki said:
In this sense, "market socialism" was first attempted during the 1920s in the Soviet Union as the New Economic Policy (NEP) before being abandoned.

The NEP was nothing more than Lenin allowing some capitalism in order to prevent too many people from starving to death. Calling the NEP "market socialism" is a complete crock of crap.

wiki said:
A number of market socialist elements have existed in various economies.

The economy of the former Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia is widely considered to be a model of market-based socialism,

Yugoslavia under Tito was not "market socialism". Tito was a filthy communist who for years was loyal to Stalin. Yugoslavia under Tito still had central planning, nationalizations, secret police, and all of the socialist "sticks" needed to force people to work.

wiki said:
The modern Cuban economy under the rule of Raúl Castro has been described as attempting market socialist reforms

lol, I'll let the reader research what kind of standard of living Cubans have. Hint: it ain't pretty.
 
Uh oh, you mad bro?

Not at all. Believing that capitalism = markets is simply retarded. Markets have existed for as long as mankind has, while capitalism is a very specific system of investment and private ownership that has only existed for about half of a millennium.
 
Capitalism relies on positive incentives. Create a better or cheaper product or service, and people will voluntarily give you their money in exchange for it. If enough people give you their money in exchange for what you are producing, you might get rich.

Socialism relies on negative incentives. People who work for the state are primarily interested in keeping their jobs. They are paid the same amount regardless of what they produce or how they produce it, because the money for their pay is taken from people coercively, via taxation.



View attachment 67264214

A commune of Heaven on Earth can only be achieved through social morals for free not capital morals at any price.
 
Believing that capitalism = markets is simply retarded.

I don't believe that capitalism = markets. It's not my problem you can't follow a simple argument. I believe markets are incompatible with socialism. The only reason people trade is because they believe the trade will make them better off, i.e. richer. People trade in order to profit, not in order to benefit the community.
 
I don't believe that capitalism = markets. It's not my problem you can't follow a simple argument. I believe markets are incompatible with socialism. The only reason people trade is because they believe the trade will make them better off, i.e. richer. People trade in order to profit, not in order to benefit the community.

It is why we have mixed market economies; Government is socialism and the private sector is "capitalism".
 
There is 'good socialism' and 'bad socialism'. The pure word 'socialism' means there are no privately owned industries. The 'means of production' are all 'owned by the state'. While in some imaginary world with a benevolent state - like imaginary worlds with a 'benevolent dictator' or 'benevolent capitalist owners' - this might work, we've seen - as we've seen in all three cases - where it doesn't, and you get 'tyranny'.

Capitalism doesn't rely on benevolence, it relies on self-interest. The bread in the upper part of the image wasn't produced because the capitalist bakers were benevolent, it was produced because the bakers want to profit from selling bread.

In the lower part of the image producing bread for a profit is illegal. Instead, the state has taken over the production of bread in order to eliminate the greedy bakers. The state produces bread for the common good, seeking an egalitarian outcome of bread distribution. That goal is typically achieved, as long as the people in the bread line are equally starving.

We could discuss how and why so-called 'socialist' attempts have 'gone wrong', but baby steps since you're far from being ready for that discussion.

You're right, I'm not ready for the "not real socialism" argument.

The way I've longed explained is is a thought experiment. Imagine one person invented a machine that allowed them to create unlimited products for free.

That would be great.

Suddenly, the whole system of creating products becomes unneeded, but you still have a public needing products. He could be a 'nice guy' and make everything everyone 'needs', or not so nice and just drive everyone else out of business, always able to make products to sell for lower prices than others, as he gradually accumulates all the wealth. How would you design economic and political systems in that case?

It doesn't matter if he's a nice guy or not. If he sells goods cheaper, then he makes the world a better place, especially for poor people.

Walmart sells sporting goods. They have buying power to undercut just about any other sporting good store. Yet note that there are still plenty of other stores selling sporting goods for a profit.

What your thought experiment fails to take into consideration is opportunity costs.
 
I don't believe that capitalism = markets. It's not my problem you can't follow a simple argument. I believe markets are incompatible with socialism. The only reason people trade is because they believe the trade will make them better off, i.e. richer. People trade in order to profit, not in order to benefit the community.

You're factually incorrect when you say that markets are incompatible with socialism, and demonstrably so. Trade is also a direct and self-evident benefit to a community when it is conducted among equals, which capitalism abhors; profit under capitalism is achieved by paying workers a fraction of their value in exchange for the privilege of being productive. Much as you love to pretend otherwise, socialism is and always has been about workers' ownership of production, so that they can cut the unneeded and unwanted middleman of capitalists out of their lives - nothing more, and certainly nothing less.
 
You're factually incorrect when you say that markets are incompatible with socialism, and demonstrably so.

I addressed the examples of "market socialism" in that dumb article. Lenin's NEP, Yugoslavia under Tito, and Cuba. In all of these cases, you have a brutal, socialist country that sometimes allows a tiny bit of capitalism in order to keep the people from starving to death.

Trade is also a direct and self-evident benefit to a community when it is conducted among equals,

Provide a hypothetical example of a trade among equals that benefits the community.
 
Provide a hypothetical example of a trade among equals that benefits the community.

Specialization of labor is a necessity for large populations and complex societies. If Og gets really good at making arrows, he directly benefits the rest of his tribe when he gives them arrows in exchange for the food he's too busy to hunt or grow.
 
Specialization of labor is a necessity for large populations and complex societies.

Specialization of labor is promoted by supporters of capitalism, e.g. von Mises and Adam Smith.

Marx believed specialization of labor leads to alienation.

If Og gets really good at making arrows, he directly benefits the rest of his tribe when he gives them arrows in exchange for the food he's too busy to hunt or grow.

Right, but when he's hungry he has to go out and find someone who both wants arrows and has food to trade. This why barter markets are so inefficient, and why money is used instead. If he's really good at making arrows he can sell them to other tribes, and then he will start to accumulate capital for himself.

There are no socialist ideals here.
 
Capitalism doesn't rely on benevolence, it relies on self-interest. The bread in the upper part of the image wasn't produced because the capitalist bakers were benevolent, it was produced because the bakers want to profit from selling bread.

You completely missed the explanation of these issues in my posts. Sad.

So, let's ask you some basic questions. How do you protect the public good under capitalism, when it's not a baker making bread, but in conflict with the public interest? Say a company wants to profit by polluting a river. How do you prevent them from doing so under capitalism? If a restaurant or hotel want to refuse black customer, and they think they'll profit more by doing so, how do you require them to serve all races under capitalism?

In the lower part of the image producing bread for a profit is illegal. Instead, the state has taken over the production of bread in order to eliminate the greedy bakers. The state produces bread for the common good, seeking an egalitarian outcome of bread distribution. That goal is typically achieved, as long as the people in the bread line are equally starving.

False and propagandistic. And no one here is advocating having the neighborhood bakery be taken over by the government, so a straw man as well. You're clearly not informed regarding the actual factors in these issues - including things like economic warfare in sanctions - as I said many are not in my previous posts.

That would be great.

It doesn't matter if he's a nice guy or not. If he sells goods cheaper, then he makes the world a better place, especially for poor people.

Would it now. And where would anyone get any money to pay even his lower prices? How would you resolve it if his undercutting everyone just destroyed the ability of any other creators to create any manufacturing? Think of ot a little like how now, many poor areas don't even support a good grocery - much less, say, building their own cars. Nevermind, you clearly aren't interested in actually benefiting from the thought experiment.

Walmart sells sporting goods. They have buying power to undercut just about any other sporting good store. Yet note that there are still plenty of other stores selling sporting goods for a profit.

What your thought experiment fails to take into consideration is opportunity costs.

And yet, Wal-mart shuts down many stores for everyone it opens, kills more jobs than it offers. It is very successful at something - being a parasite extracting wealth for the wealthiest family in the world. You're the one not looking at the opportunity costs from its 'cheap products'.
 
Capitalism relies on positive incentives. Create a better or cheaper product or service, and people will voluntarily give you their money in exchange for it. If enough people give you their money in exchange for what you are producing, you might get rich.

Socialism relies on negative incentives. People who work for the state are primarily interested in keeping their jobs. They are paid the same amount regardless of what they produce or how they produce it, because the money for their pay is taken from people coercively, via taxation.

View attachment 67264214

Some good points.

A mix of sorts is best.
 
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