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Stem Cells...and BioMed

tecoyah

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After watching the State of the Union address, I sat back and thought of what was said, and though much of it was....disheartening, one thing said by the president was particularly important to me. Over the next ten years, there is likely to be a new revolution in Human Industry.....Bio-Medical advancement. We can already see the beginnings of this new industry taking hold, and future economic growth will depend partially on whether or not we are a part of the wave. Sadly....it now looks clear we as a country will not be moving in this direction.
I am deeply saddened to see the Religious mindset push the coutry I love backwards , rather than staying out of the state and doing as it has in the past.....helping people who are in need. Mark my words, we will live to regret this failure of vision by our leadership, while we watch the rest of the world advance this new frontier, and buy the resultiing medical advances from others.
 

talentoso

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The United States of America was found upon religious principles. Why should we discard our beliefs and morals now? If you don't like what's happening here in this great land called America, then get out of here. Go start your own country. Us people in America should put their religious beliefs before all else. Without morals, no country can sustain intself for too long. It would just be chaos. I'm glad to see that the United States has put that technology here on hold. May God be with us, and not against us.
 

tecoyah

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talentoso said:
The United States of America was found upon religious principles. Why should we discard our beliefs and morals now? If you don't like what's happening here in this great land called America, then get out of here. Go start your own country. Us people in America should put their religious beliefs before all else. Without morals, no country can sustain intself for too long. It would just be chaos. I'm glad to see that the United States has put that technology here on hold. May God be with us, and not against us.
Wow.....what an exceptional representation of America you have given us all here, Truly the understanding of Human nature is astounding, and your grasp of complex issues which define a society leave me in Awe. Your compelling argument for allowing our country to suffer economically is beyond reproach, as is the obvious Moral Highground from which you preach Gods words of compassion and understanding. This world needs more people like yourself, to guide us through these difficult times with such well thought out statements of critical thinking, and wisdom.

I bow down before such overpowering intellect, and beg forgiveness in the eyes of such a prophet of God.......Please allow me to stay in your country.
 

ngdawg

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talentoso said:
The United States of America was found upon religious principles.
Actually, it was invaded and taken over from the original inhabitants (and not very politely) by those seeking freedom from religious persecution. These same invaders-collectively called 'Puritans', while declaring their new-found religious freedom, did very UN-Christian like things to those they sought to displace. Eventually, as the new country became closer to reality, the basis of religious doctrine was kept, but the core was NOT one of specific religious outlooks. In fact, the idealogy even back then was one of a country where freedoms to forge ahead with new ideas in science and political arenas.
talentoso said:
Why should we discard our beliefs and morals now? If you don't like what's happening here in this great land called America, then get out of here. Go start your own country. Us people in America should put their religious beliefs before all else.
"Us people"? Do you mean those that failed basic English in High School? (it's 'we people' and more correctly, 'we the religious fundamentalists with the narrow-minded thinking') And the basis of morals, not bringing law to that stance, is one of a personal foundation one sets for his/her life. Science does not break the law. The fact that science does not meet your moral stance is totally unimportant and quite silly, really.
talentoso said:
Without morals, no country can sustain intself for too long. It would just be chaos. I'm glad to see that the United States has put that technology here on hold. May God be with us, and not against us.
And as long as there are people such as yourself who still see science as a bad B-movie corrupting the minds of those who view it, we will be stuck in a cave of confliction, fighting to stave off the ignorant views of those who think they 'speak for God' and spout the nonsense as seen above in a vain attempt to keep this country in the dark ages and behind in the technological race.
 

talloulou

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I don't think there is anything silly about wondering if we should remove eggs from the ovaries of an aborted fetus in order to play with them and clone them.

Furthermore we have the scientific wherewithall to do all kinds of research that many would find unethical and unacceptable. Is that silly?

I didn't realize the motto was if it can be done it should be done in regards to science.
 

tecoyah

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talloulou said:
I don't think there is anything silly about wondering if we should remove eggs from the ovaries of an aborted fetus in order to play with them and clone them.

I was wondering if maybe...you could be a bit more dramatic, and try to get baby Jesus to Cry a bit louder. Wait....lemme one up ya:

You know....they take the eggs from fetuses sucked out of nekkid womens, who have been tied to poles in a field of thorn bushes, after raping them with woodsaws rusted and festering with herpes.


As it is obvious you have absolutely no Idea how this science works...you can be forgiven for ignorance, but not for grandstanding propaganda. I would recommend, for your own sake that you refrain from commenting on this subject until perhaps, you actually understand it.
 

talentoso

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According to your beliefs (if it can be done it should be done), since the U.S. has the ability to overpower and take advantage of lesser countries than ourselves, we than have all rights to conquer and enslave anybody we can so we can benefit Why not try to take over the entire world? Since we have the ability to do immense things, that doesn't mean that we should do it.

Let me know when you take over the world Hitler.
 

vergiss

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Don't worry, tecoyah. Europe will fund research and development into these areas of science.

Talentoso - ever heard of the Enlightenment? You know, when people stopped living in the Middle Ages?
 

ngdawg

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talentoso said:
According to your beliefs (if it can be done it should be done), since the U.S. has the ability to overpower and take advantage of lesser countries than ourselves, we than have all rights to conquer and enslave anybody we can so we can benefit Why not try to take over the entire world? Since we have the ability to do immense things, that doesn't mean that we should do it.

Let me know when you take over the world Hitler.
Whose beliefs? Who said the US has the ability to overpower and take advantage? Are you in the right thread? *edited as too insulting*
Invoking Godman's Rule so soon? Not much good at debating, eh?
I still don't get how so many of you read words that simply haven't been placed:roll: But then again, if you can't comprehend simple english, how could you possibly comprehend the complexities of stem cell research?
As mentioned earlier to another, I would recommend you refrain from posting until you have some level of understanding what exactly is being discussed. And ditch the Godman rule...it unbecomes you.
 

talentoso

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ngdawg said:
Do you mean those that failed basic English in High School?
How about you quit complaining about my typographical and grammatical errors and concern yourself with the content of my writings, so you can actually type something that is worth my time reading.

President Bush does not have a problem with the transdifferentiation of adult stem cells. It is very safe for the individual since immunogenic rejections are averted. Hopefully scientists can find more multipotent stem cells within the human body. Cord blood stem cells have done amazing things by saving many children. There has been extensive research in this field beginning in the ‘60s and greatly expanding in today’s technological age.

I along with President Bush do have a problem with embryonic stem cell research. They are pluripotent, so they have the potential to do immense things. The problem lies in that to obtain the embryonic stem cell; a human embryo has to be destroyed. Potential human beings are being destroyed. I believe that life is a special gift and it should be protected at all costs. I can see using blastocyst-stage embryos that after in vitro fertilization though because they would usually be destroyed after the in vitro fertilization is successful. I just don’t believe in using any more embryos than those.
 

ngdawg

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talentoso said:
How about you quit complaining about my typographical and grammatical errors and concern yourself with the content of my writings, so you can actually type something that is worth my time reading.
How about you lighten up a little...I DID go back to the rest of your post, but you conveniently put that aside....:roll:
talentoso said:
President Bush does not have a problem with the transdifferentiation of adult stem cells. It is very safe for the individual since immunogenic rejections are averted. Hopefully scientists can find more multipotent stem cells within the human body. Cord blood stem cells have done amazing things by saving many children. There has been extensive research in this field beginning in the ‘60s and greatly expanding in today’s technological age.

I along with President Bush do have a problem with embryonic stem cell research. They are pluripotent, so they have the potential to do immense things. The problem lies in that to obtain the embryonic stem cell; a human embryo has to be destroyed. Potential human beings are being destroyed. I believe that life is a special gift and it should be protected at all costs. I can see using blastocyst-stage embryos that after in vitro fertilization though because they would usually be destroyed after the in vitro fertilization is successful. I just don’t believe in using any more embryos than those.
So destroying embryos from a freezer is ok, but destroying them from a uterus is not?
Since you are unaware of the fertility chain of events, allow me to enlighten you.
The embryos are NOT destroyed after IV. They are frozen, checked after 3 months to see if they have survived the freezing process and then put back into the deep freeze. Ownership stays with the parents. There are legal forms one must sign regarding ownership and/or reliquishment of the embryos.
Now, personally, I first signed mine over to my sister-in-law, then later reassigned them to be used in 'research only'.
Got it now? They are not destroyed unless the ownership, by legal document, deems it so.
Now, on to embryonic stem cell research. No one is suggesting that embryos be aborted FOR that reason. If something great can come from something bad, the something great trumps. Also, stem cell research, in addition to adult stem cell, includes umbilical stem cell, fetal stem cell and stem cells from miscarried embyonic tissue and fetal tissue provided death hasn't decomposed the cells beyond logical use.
This isn't some bad science fiction horror film where embryos and fetuses are stolen to save the pretty blonde woman. It's called 'research', it's not TAKING life away, but using what otherwise would have been in your local landfill anyway and putting it to use for the betterment of mankind.
I URGE you to read up on it. Your comments do nothing but cement the ignorance about this potentially life saving and important research.
 

talentoso

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The question that lies in all of this is when does life begin? Is it when the two haploid cells combine or is it much later on? Nobody will ever know the real answer to this.
When we use embryos in this research, if the embryo is the first stage of life, we might be destroying human beings. If the embryo is not the first stage of life then we may be doing nothing wrong at all.

It all depends on when life begins and if the embryo is the first stage of life or not. If the embryo is not the first stage of life, then when does life begin?
 
F

FallingPianos

talentoso said:
The question that lies in all of this is when does life begin? Is it when the two haploid cells combine or is it much later on? Nobody will ever know the real answer to this.
well, in human development there is no point where life "began". the gamates are just as alive as the zygote. what happens is that they fuze together and go from 2 lives to 1 life.

a more relevant question is "when does it become an individual?" Something I find interesting, is that conjoined twins are considered 2 people if they both have a fully functioning brain, but a two headed snake is just a two headed snake, not 2 snakes.
 

ngdawg

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I don't think the question of 'when does life begin' has any bearing. As I stated, no one is going to stop it simply FOR stemcell research except in those cases where the zygotes and early stage embryos have been donated for such. Life begins when it's distinguishable as having begun-that would seem to mean after cellular division has begun. Even ameobas are life in the simplest form; I don't think zygotes are less than such.
My beef comes with the notions that a)abortion would happen to facilitate research(totally false) and b) somehow it's better that medically and naturally aborted embryos and fetuses are somehow better off in the landfill.
By stating your abhorence to stemcell research, this is, quite frankly, what you're stating. That it's better to be medical waste than scientific wonder.
That I just don't understand at all.
 

talloulou

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tecoyah said:
I was wondering if maybe...you could be a bit more dramatic, and try to get baby Jesus to Cry a bit louder. Wait....lemme one up ya:

You know....they take the eggs from fetuses sucked out of nekkid womens, who have been tied to poles in a field of thorn bushes, after raping them with woodsaws rusted and festering with herpes.


As it is obvious you have absolutely no Idea how this science works...you can be forgiven for ignorance, but not for grandstanding propaganda. I would recommend, for your own sake that you refrain from commenting on this subject until perhaps, you actually understand it.
Excuse me but what am I not understanding? Are fetal females ovaries not a great source of eggs? Does planned parenthood not have a whole section on their website that attempts to convince aborting mothers of the great value of fetal tissue research?
 

talloulou

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ngdawg said:
So destroying embryos from a freezer is ok, but destroying them from a uterus is not?
Well what about the process of creating embryos just so they can be used as research and then later destroyed? What about the ethics of removing eggs from a dead fetal female, then fertilizing the eggs to create embryos which will later be destroyed?
 

Sir_Alec

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What I don't think talentoso realizes is that in America the law is not based around God's law. America is the land of the free (not really) and if I don't want to say the 'god' part of god bless America I should not have to.
 

talloulou

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Sir_Alec said:
What I don't think talentoso realizes is that in America the law is not based around God's law. America is the land of the free (not really) and if I don't want to say the 'god' part of god bless America I should not have to.

hmmmm since when is GOD or organized religion a prerequisite for ethics and morals?
 

ngdawg

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While research has posted trials on removing fetal ovaries from mice and transplanting to adult mice with some success, there's a huge different in species (yea, duh). Mice, compared to humans, grow at an excelerated rate, but do not grow to their adult size proportionately to humans.
Rather than try to explain, I'll just c&p it:

A baby girl is born with egg cells (oocytes) in her ovaries. Between 16 and 20 weeks of pregnancy, the ovaries of a female fetus contain 6 to 7 million oocytes. Most of the oocytes gradually waste away, leaving about 1 to 2 million present at birth. None develop after birth. At puberty, only about 300,000—more than enough for a lifetime of fertility—remain. Only a small percentage of oocytes mature into eggs. The many thousands of oocytes that do not mature degenerate. Degeneration progresses more rapidly in the 10 to 15 years before menopause. All are gone by menopause.

Only about 400 eggs are released during a woman's reproductive life, usually one during each menstrual cycle. Until released, an egg remains dormant in its follicle—suspended in the middle of a cell division. Thus, the egg is one of the longest-lived cells in the body. Because a dormant egg cannot perform the usual cellular repair processes, the opportunity for damage increases as a woman ages. A chromosomal or genetic abnormality is thus more likely when a woman conceives a baby later in life.

Source: http://www.merck.com/mmhe/sec22/ch241/ch241c.html

So while the matter of 'taking fetal ovaries from aborted fetuses' might scare you and you think it'll happen tomorrow, it won't.
And like I stated earlier, regardless of how one feels about abortion, being researched upon (which is no different than any other human-based research or autopsy) is certainly better than being trashed. One needs to get past the fact that it's a baby-no one gets all emotional when some old man's liver gets disected after he dies....whether fetal stem cell research is from donated embryos, miscarried fetuses or abortion, it's for science and I truly doubt some scientist is going to be knocking on doors asking for your fetus.
Planned Parenthood is offering the woman who seeks their service a chance to do some good out of her situation. You prefer the medical waste bin then?
 

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ngdawg said:
So while the matter of 'taking fetal ovaries from aborted fetuses' might scare you and you think it'll happen tomorrow, it won't.
You don't know when any of this craziness will happen. They are creating mice with human brain cells and calling them chimeras....part mice/part human DNA. That's happening right now. To suggest people should just stick their head in the sand and ignore any bioethical questions is absurd. They are fertilizing the eggs they take from the ovaries of dead fetal females for embryonic stem cell research right now! They could implant one of those eggs in a woman and she could give birth to a child whose biological mother was never born!


And like I stated earlier, regardless of how one feels about abortion, being researched upon (which is no different than any other human-based research or autopsy) is certainly better than being trashed.
Depends on the research being done in my opinion.

One needs to get past the fact that it's a baby-no one gets all emotional when some old man's liver gets disected after he dies....whether fetal stem cell research is from donated embryos, miscarried fetuses or abortion, it's for science and I truly doubt some scientist is going to be knocking on doors asking for your fetus.
That's not the point at all. The point is they are using eggs obtained from fetal ovaries to create new life and some of that life is questionable....such as the mice with human brain cells.

Planned Parenthood is offering the woman who seeks their service a chance to do some good out of her situation. You prefer the medical waste bin then?
Women need to be fully aware of what donating to research means. Most of them aren't. Furthermore you aren't generally told to what type of research you are donating. I think if a girl was told we are going to take your dead female fetus and obtain the eggs from her ovaries so we can fertilize them......more women might question the research donation. If they say hey we are going to use this fetus to create a mouse with human brain cells.....how do you feel about that? More women might say WTF.....No friggen way!
 

ngdawg

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You seem to be really stuck with one possible scenario that hasn't even happened yet-where are you getting this idea that human fetal eggs(which is a misnomer as pointed out in the earlier link) are being harvested as we speak and even if they are, here's a newsflash: The embryo or fetus they're from aren't living.
As someone who went through 10 years of infertility treatments and then signed over her extra embryos for research,I can tell you you are barking up the wrong tree.
As for the human dna in mice-this has been done for a few years in one regard or another-a human ear was grown on the back of a mouse a few years back.
If you don't have disabilities or health issues that depend on research to find a solution for you, you should be on your knees in thanks. Those of us who depended on science for cures and solutions thank the stars for people so dedicated to discovering new cures. These, at least the vast majority, are not unethical mad scientists in basement labs. They want to help mankind and I, for one, would rather see good come out of something dire than see everything just go to waste.
 
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