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Special counsel: Trump’s ‘deception’ on classified docs distinguishes him from Biden, Clinton and Pence

Elmo said:
Listen, the system works one of two ways:

1. The President has ultimate authority on classification matters, but their decisions still need to be enacted. The security apparatus still has to be informed of the President's decisions, and it will take some time to implement those decisions. The process of classification is important. Classified markings are important.

2. The president can classify and declassify with a thought, and does not even need to tell anyone. The President's mere thoughts carry full legal weight, and therefore control consequences for ANYONE handling classified documents.

#2 is idiotic for countless reasons. As the most obvious, the President could unilaterally declare that all of YOUR personal documents are classified and have been classified for years. If it only takes a thought, no one can contradict that. Legally or otherwise. You're now on the hook for illegally possessing classified documents. You weren't informed and they were never properly marked? That's no excuse, tough shit.

Anyway, Donald Trump can argue #2 is the way things actually work. My point is that EVEN IF HE'S RIGHT, the documents he took WERE "statutorily protected". President Biden's DOJ had a right to demand and seize them because the President's whims are law. Private citizen Trump had no right to deny them.
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Agreed.

See this is what people that don't understand what "classified" shows. Documents are not "declassified" it is the information in the document that is declassified. The document is a piece of paper, it is the information that is important.

For example let’s say that there are 6 copies of a specific document containing specific classified information. One located in the White House, 5 located amongst various agencies which also need the document. In addition there are subordinate documents that contain (either in part of in whole some of the same classified information).

Under a normal process when the information contained in a highly classified documents is declassified (or downgraded) that impacts all copies of the document (its information, and subordinate documents containing the same information in whole or portions of a subordinate document).

So If the FPOTUS "declassified" a document, he is really declassifying the information in that document. If the FPOTUS, while acting as POTUS, "declassified" the information without telling anyone (either directly or in writing) for that specific document, you end up with:
  • One copy of the information located at the White House (or one of his Country Clubs) being "declassified", and
  • Five copies of the information located at the responsible agencies still being classified as the responsible agencies will not know the information was declassified because the FPOTUS (while POTUS) just mentally declassified the information in his head.
The result is someone could be prosecuted for improper handling of classified material for actions related to the 5 responsible agency documents, but not for improper handling of the exact same document if the source of the document was the White House. But they contain the same information! By this we are talking about the information in the document and subordinate information which sourced the document which can have even wider reaching impacts.

The national security infrastructure cannot function in a reasonable way if the same information is both classified and declassified at the same time simply because the POTUS chooses not to tell anyone.

Kind of a Schrodinger's Classified document where the same information is both classified and declassified at the same time until someone asks the FPOTUS to find out if he mentally and secretly declassified it without telling anyone while still POTUS. Normal people wouldn't know just by looking at the document.

WW
 
WorldWatcher said:
Let's see. Given 16 months of requests by the NARA to return the documents supported by dates, times, location, correspondence, and witness testimony,...

Two more months of combined NARA and FBI efforts to get the documents back supported by dates, times, location, correspondence, and witness testimony,...

Failure to comply with a court ordered subpoena to return the documents supported by dates, times, location, correspondence, and witness testimony,...

I don't think that will be a problem.
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Missing the point.

WorldWatcher said:
Not a problem, both the Presidential Records Act and the National Security provisions of the United States Code clearly show that Presidential Records and National Defense Information is the property of the United States Government and at the time that the time in question FPOTUS#45 was a private citizen and not a member of the government.
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Missing the point
WorldWatcher said:
Possessing classified documents in and of itself is not a crime. There has to be a proving of intent.
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gross neglience
WorldWatcher said:
WW
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ClaraD said:
He cannot declassify anything as a private citizen and that’s what he was when the documents were subpoenaed
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Records were already in his custody as President.
 
Linuxcooldude said:
Records were already in his custody as President.
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So what? Under the laws governing national defense documents he was legally required to return them when requested.
 
Linuxcooldude said:
Records were already in his custody as President.
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If Trump can de-classify without telling anyone, Biden can re-classify without telling anyone. Regardless of what Trump thinks he did while in office, those documents were classified when Biden's DoJ demanded and eventually seized them. Trump was in illegal possession of documents belonging to the US government.
 
ClaraD said:
No cooperation is what makes it not a crime
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Supposed to cooperate with law enforcement.
If you don't, that's what opens up allegations of obstruction.
Which is a separate crime.
 
Elmo said:
He could make the argument, and it will be laughed out of court. The special counsel won't have to prove any such thing.

Further, if you believe the President can declassify without telling anyone, you must also believe the President can re-classify without telling anyone. The DOJ, enforcement branch of the CURRENT executive, demanded classified documents being held by private citizen Trump. They did so with the authorization of the current president. In your world, Presidents have magical telepathic classification powers. So private citizen Trump had ZERO right to lie, hide, delay, and deny those documents from the agents of President Biden. It does not matter if Trump thinks he declassified them during his term. They were classified when they were demanded and eventually seized, and they are classified now.
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A President can literally declassify information just talking about it publically or spoken to a foreign dignitary.
 
As with everything when it comes to Trump, this is a result of Trump's own decisions and actions. He had to pretend to be a big bad Don, and instead of cooperating and returning docs, he resisted.
 
Linuxcooldude said:
A President can literally declassify information just talking about it publically or spoken to a foreign dignitary.
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Did Trump talk about the information in those documents in public while President?
 
Linuxcooldude said:
A President can literally declassify information just talking about it publically or spoken to a foreign dignitary.
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The fact they were or were not classified is irrelevant to the most serious charges
 
Artymoon said:
Zero is a word like always or never. It doesn't always age well.

Very first charge is that of Willful Retention of Defense Information. If this information is not classified, then what's the frenzy with getting it back? Does this underscore that it's about the information or about Trump?
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Zero is actually like none. Which is accurate. None of the charges Trump is facing require any of the information to be classified, unless they added charges to the original indictment.

"What's the frenzy with getting them back?" is a nonsense question. He had no authorization to have the documents. He knew it. He lied about having returned all the documents that he shouldn't have, and he apparently intentionally took actions to attempt to hide the fact that he still had these documents from the authorities tasked with retrieving them.

A better, more reasonable question would be - why are you defending those actions?
 
Elmo said:
If Trump can de-classify without telling anyone, Biden can re-classify without telling anyone. Regardless of what Trump thinks he did while in office, those documents were classified when Biden's DoJ demanded and eventually seized them. Trump was in illegal possession of documents belonging to the US government.
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That would go to intent. Trump would have to know Biden reclassified the documents, which can’t be done by not telling anyone. So to throw some kind of charge to these newly reclassified documents would require Trump knowing that they were reclassified.

Which goes to exactly what documents are reclassified? You simply can’t say the documents taken out of the White House. Which could include private papers, letters or other.
 
Linuxcooldude said:
A President can literally declassify information just talking about it publically or spoken to a foreign dignitary.
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Correct, for nearly everything. However, there is still a declassification process that needs to happen after the President takes that action. There is no indication that ever happened for any of the information in question, as far as the public is aware.
 
ClaraD said:
In a box Biden didn’t pack? It has to be willfully done and an investigation revealed that Biden cooperated and in fact called them to check for documents
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Too late now….Biden already mentioned during the HUR investigation he knew he had classified material in his possession, but kept them anyway. Which is willful intent in which HUR noted in his report. As duly noted by the ghost writer he was shown classified material as well.
 
Linuxcooldude said:
That would go to intent. Trump would have to know Biden reclassified the documents, which can’t be done by not telling anyone. So to throw some kind of charge to these newly reclassified documents would require Trump knowing that they were reclassified.
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Trump was told for months that he was in illegal possession of classified documents. He lied and denied. Intent is not difficult to prove. Trump's ignorance of the law does not protect him
Linuxcooldude said:
Which goes to exactly what documents are reclassified? You simply can’t say the documents taken out of the White House. Which could include private papers, letters or other.
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Why not? Because you say so? In the idiotic world where classification is controlled solely by the President's thoughts, ANYTHING can be classified at ANY time. You think private documents can't be a national security threat? You think they're immune to the whims of a telepathic president?
 
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Linuxcooldude said:
That would go to intent. Trump would have to know Biden reclassified the documents, which can’t be done by not telling anyone. So to throw some kind of charge to these newly reclassified documents would require Trump knowing that they were reclassified.

Which goes to exactly what documents are reclassified? You simply can’t say the documents taken out of the White House. Which could include private papers, letters or other.
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He received a subpoena telling him he had them and that they were NDI which is always top secret and not able to be magically declassified
 
Elmo said:
In the idiotic world where classification is controlled solely by the President's thoughts, ANYTHING can be classified as ANY time.
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The people who go down this road obviously have zero understanding about how the classification process works or why it's needed.
 
ClaraD said:
They determined his case wasn’t criminal so stop yammering and start worrying about what Trump promotes to Russia if he wins
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Stop moving the goalposts. First you said it had to be willfully done, which it was. Now a knee jerk response once you find out you were wrong.
 
Athanasius68 said:
Sec f

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This has been explained to you numerous times, but I guess it hasn't quite sunk in yet.

"Gross negligence" and "carelessness" are not synonyms in the legal world - gross negligence is a significantly higher standard. More importantly, it's a moot point, because the Supreme Court ruled decades ago that it is unconstitutional for a civilian to be convicted of violating Section (f.) without intent being proven.
 
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