Special counsel: Trump’s ‘deception’ on classified docs distinguishes him from Biden, Clinton and Pence

[WorldWatcher]

Zero is a word like always or never. It doesn't always age well.

Very first charge is that of Willful Retention of Defense Information.

Willful retention, is not possession. Willful retention is failure to return when directred.

If this information is not classified, then what's the frenzy with getting it back? Does this underscore that it's about the information or about Trump?

FPOTUS#45 has made no claim to the court that any of the documents were declassified. To do so he would have to provide particulars: method, names of those to which the order was communicated, date, etc. Which can then be impeached by the prosecution. He will not open himself up to the perjury charge.

WW

 

[Callen]

Alright guys, I'm gonna take a break and get some chores done. I'll do my best to keep answering all of your questions.

First I think it best you read what he is actualy is charged with. You seem to be under a misunderstanding. Here is the actual statute. You will notice there is no mention of classification . The crime is not returning them when asked.
e)
Whoever having unauthorized possession of, access to, or control over any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, or note relating to the national defense, or information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation, willfully communicates, delivers, transmits or causes to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted, or attempts to communicate, deliver, transmit or cause to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted the same to any person not entitled to receive it, or willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it; or

 

[Athanasius68]

Why does the length of time involved make it "more egregious?"

Demonstrates a track record of carelessness.

"Possessing" classified documents is not itself a crime - the statute requires more than simple possession.

Carelessness

 

[Athanasius68]

Given neither was charged with mishandling classified information your point is irrelevant

Smith has to prove that Trump had the documents, that he was not allowed to have them, in order to prove he did not return them.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Some are say'n...

..... ..... Can't say who...

..... ..... ..... ..... But some...

..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... That President Biden used his Presidential Authority...

..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... to secretly and mentally declassify all the documents in his gargage...

..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... That means he wasn't in possession of classified documents.

..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... Just like FPOTUS#45 declassified his documents.

.WW

 

[ClaraD]

Demonstrates a track record of carelessness.


Carelessness

The carelessness is storing them in a bathroom even after being told to return them and REFUSING to obey the subpoena for 18 months

 

[Athanasius68]

Also? Who else was charged with possessing documents?

In order for Smith to prove Trump did not turn over the documents upon request, he has to prove Trump unlawfully had possession of the documents.

The reason why the DOJ didn't charge Trump specifically for that should be obvious.

 

[j brown's body]

Special counsel: Trump’s ‘deception’ on classified docs distinguishes him from Biden, Clinton and Pence

Stolen classified documents at Trumps Mar-a-Lago estate.



Trump-appointed Judge Aileen Cannon in Florida plans to hold a hearing next Thursday on Trump’s motion to toss out the case due to the Presidential Records Act and on another motion claiming the willful retention of classified documents charges against him are unduly vague. The U.S. National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) tried throuought 2021 to get Trump to return the classified government documents. Trump refused. The charges against him and two co-defendents are crystal clear and not vague in the least.

Sounds like obstruction of justice. Trump 's forte.

 

[Athanasius68]

Some are say'n...

..... ..... Can't say who...

..... ..... ..... ..... But some...

..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... That President Biden used his Presidential Authority...

..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... to secretly and mentally declassify all the documents in his gargage...

..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... That means he wasn't in possession of classified documents.

..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... Just like FPOTUS#45 declassified his documen

Litigate it in court.

 

[j brown's body]

In order for Smith to prove Trump did not turn over the documents upon request, he has to prove Trump unlawfully had possession of the documents.

The reason why the DOJ didn't charge Trump specifically for that should be obvious.

Lying about having turned them over sounds like obstruction of justice.

 

[j brown's body]

But he can make an argument that he did as President - and can do so just by uttering the words - and the special counsel will have to prove he absolutely didn't for every single document.

Can he make Air Force One his by uttering the words?

 

[Athanasius68]

The carelessness is storing them in a bathroom even after being told to return them and REFUSING to obey the subpoena for 18 months

The carelessness is storing them in a garage.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Litigate it in court.

They are.

(But you will note FPOTUS#45 has NOT claimed in court he declassified any of the documents recovered during the search warrant executed at MAL.)

WW

 

[Callen]

Smith has to prove that Trump had the documents, that he was not allowed to have them, in order to prove he did not return them.

Gee........that's a tough one.

 

[ClaraD]

The carelessness is storing them in a garage.

In a box Biden didn’t pack? It has to be willfully done and an investigation revealed that Biden cooperated and in fact called them to check for documents

 

[WorldWatcher]

Gee........that's a tough one.

Seeing as how court documents show he had classified documents in his personal desk drawer? Ya, not so tough.

WW

 

[Athanasius68]

FPOTUS#45 wasn't charged with taking the documents (just like VP Pence and Senator/VP/Biden). He was charged because as a private citizen her failed to return them to Officers of the United States (NARA, Courts, and FBI) when directed to do so.

WW

In order for Smith to prove that Trump did not return the documents upon request, he has to prove that Trump HAD the documents and that the documents were lawfully subject to recall.

Possessing the documents carelessly is also a crime, which doesn't change if they are returned upon request.

 

[Athanasius68]

In a box Biden didn’t pack? It has to be willfully done and an investigation revealed that Biden cooperated and in fact called them to check for documents

Carelessness.
Biden cooperation simply matters when deciding upon other charges.

 

[Athanasius68]

They are.

(But you will note FPOTUS#45 has NOT claimed in court he declassified any of the documents recovered during the search warrant executed at MAL.)

WW

I believe the recommendation from Hurr was that Biden not be charged.

 

[TheDoctorWasIn]

In order for Smith to prove that Trump did not return the documents upon request, he has to prove that Trump HAD the documents and that the documents were lawfully subject to recall.

You don't think the whole FBI "raid" demonstrated all of that already?

Possessing the documents carelessly is also a crime, which doesn't change if they are returned upon request.

No, it isn't.

 

[Athanasius68]

Gee........that's a tough one.

Missing the point.
Having the documents themselves is a crime.
Regardless whether they were dutifully returned upon request.

 

[TheDoctorWasIn]

Missing the point.
Having the documents themselves is a crime.
Regardless whether they were dutifully returned upon request.

You keep repeating this, but that's not going to make it true.

Simple possession of classified documents is not a crime. Neither is "careless" possession of classified documents.

 

[WorldWatcher]

In order for Smith to prove that Trump did not return the documents upon request,

Let's see. Given 16 months of requests by the NARA to return the documents supported by dates, times, location, correspondence, and witness testimony,...

Two more months of combined NARA and FBI efforts to get the documents back supported by dates, times, location, correspondence, and witness testimony,...

Failure to comply with a court ordered subpoena to return the documents supported by dates, times, location, correspondence, and witness testimony,...

I don't think that will be a problem.

he has to prove that Trump HAD the documents and that the documents were lawfully subject to recall.

Not a problem, both the Presidential Records Act and the National Security provisions of the United States Code clearly show that Presidential Records and National Defense Information is the property of the United States Government and at the time that the time in question FPOTUS#45 was a private citizen and not a member of the government.

Possessing the documents carelessly is also a crime, which doesn't change if they are returned upon request.

Possessing classified documents in and of itself is not a crime. There has to be a proving of intent.

WW

 

[Elmo]

As long as said documents weren't statutorily protected, the argument will be that the President has very broad powers of declassification.

Listen, the system works one of two ways:

1. The President has ultimate authority on classification matters, but their decisions still need to be enacted. The security apparatus still has to be informed of the President's decisions, and it will take some time to implement those decisions. The process of classification is important. Classified markings are important.

2. The president can classify and declassify with a thought, and does not even need to tell anyone. The President's mere thoughts carry full legal weight, and therefore control consequences for ANYONE handling classified documents.

#2 is idiotic for countless reasons. As the most obvious, the President could unilaterally declare that all of YOUR personal documents are classified and have been classified for years. If it only takes a thought, no one can contradict that. Legally or otherwise. You're now on the hook for illegally possessing classified documents. You weren't informed and they were never properly marked? That's no excuse, tough shit.

Anyway, Donald Trump can argue #2 is the way things actually work. My point is that EVEN IF HE'S RIGHT, the documents he took WERE "statutorily protected". President Biden's DOJ had a right to demand and seize them because the President's whims are law. Private citizen Trump had no right to deny them.

The reason we are here is not because he had any information at all, it's because he thumbed his nose at them and was a dick about it. And most importantly lining up a run. Hillary set that precedent of nothing to worry about and it was cemented by Biden and Pence. If having classified documents that you shouldn't have were truly a problem, there we be a lot of ex-presidents worried. Not to mention probably everyone at the federal level that has likely stashed something intentionally or not.

You are mostly correct about the bolded. If Trump had just given the documents back when requested, we probably wouldn't have even heard about the incident.

That is how the system is SUPPOSED to work. Leniency is generally offered for reporting mistakes and cooperating. I'm sure the leniency is greater for bigwigs near the top, but this is true even for peons. Think about it: there are tens of thousands of people handling classified documents every day in this country. They may be well vetted and well trained, but mistakes still get made. If every mistake landed you in court, few would take those jobs and those that did would not destroy their own lives by reporting every mistake. National Security would suffer under those circumstances, so the rules are softened in practice to encourage self-reporting and cooperation.

 

[Callen]

Missing the point.
Having the documents themselves is a crime.
Regardless whether they were dutifully returned upon request.

Within certain qualifiers........but none the less he wasn't charged with having them.