Special counsel: Trump’s ‘deception’ on classified docs distinguishes him from Biden, Clinton and Pence

[Callen]

True, but that depends on whether their handling/storage was ‘grossly negligent’ or only ‘extremely careless’.

Why? The handling and storage is not a key element of the case and not part of the statute he is charged under, although it will surely play in .

 

[Artymoon]

Come on now. Even for a MAGA, there are a lot of other reasons to think otherwise. Sounds like you're dodging. Have you read the indictment?

Definitely not every single page but certainly the meat of it. My question is always if Trump had decided to fade into the sunset after 2020 and removed himself from politics do you think would be at this juncture?

Don't worry, it's rhetorical.

 

[Elmo]

But he can make an argument that he did as President - and can do so just by uttering the words - and the special counsel will have to prove he absolutely didn't for every single document.

He could make the argument, and it will be laughed out of court. The special counsel won't have to prove any such thing.

Further, if you believe the President can declassify without telling anyone, you must also believe the President can re-classify without telling anyone. The DOJ, enforcement branch of the CURRENT executive, demanded classified documents being held by private citizen Trump. They did so with the authorization of the current president. In your world, Presidents have magical telepathic classification powers. So private citizen Trump had ZERO right to lie, hide, delay, and deny those documents from the agents of President Biden. It does not matter if Trump thinks he declassified them during his term. They were classified when they were demanded and eventually seized, and they are classified now.

 

[samiam5211]

Yeah, he and slick Willy have nothing on each other in that regard. To be fair though, I think he was a Democrat at the time of that incident.

He was Donald Trump at the time of that incident.

 

[Loulit01]

He cannot declassify anything as a private citizen and that’s what he was when the documents were subpoenaed

Not even with his mind?

 

[hooligan]

if Trump had decided to fade into the sunset after 2020 and removed himself from politics do you think would be at this juncture?

Without a doubt.

 

[ClaraD]

Garland assigned Smith in this regard to the unlawful retention of National Defense secrets which apparently doesn't apply to anyone else. This is where the classified/declassified argument will play out.

Not even a president can declassify national defense secrets without it being given the free light by the Pentagon first

 

[ClaraD]

Definitely not every single page but certainly the meat of it. My question is always if Trump had decided to fade into the sunset after 2020 and removed himself from politics do you think would be at this juncture?

Don't worry, it's rhetorical.

We absolutely would. He had not even came close to announcing when the investigation started

 

[ClaraD]

Not even with his mind?

Nope

 

[Artymoon]

There is zero indication any of these docs were declassified.

Also, none of the charges against him in this case - unless there have been additional indictments - require the information in Trump's possession to be classified.

Zero is a word like always or never. It doesn't always age well.

Very first charge is that of Willful Retention of Defense Information. If this information is not classified, then what's the frenzy with getting it back? Does this underscore that it's about the information or about Trump?

 

[Artymoon]

We absolutely would. He had not even came close to announcing when the investigation started

He remained in the public eye and was not going way. It was pretty evident to everyone.

 

[reflechissez]

But he can make an argument that he did as President - and can do so just by uttering the words - and the special counsel will have to prove he absolutely didn't for every single document.

Sigh. Are you brand new to this topic?

 

[TheDoctorWasIn]

More potential for them to be discovered by others.

In Biden's garage?

I suspect many hundreds more people came and went from Mar-A-Lago in a year than have entered Joe Biden's garage in the last 40 years.

True, but that depends on whether their handling/storage was ‘grossly negligent’ or only ‘extremely careless’.

"Gross negligence" is not the required mens rea standard, as has undoubtably been explained to you many times.

But by all means, carry on. Far be it from me to expect intellectual honesty from a rightwinger.

 

[reflechissez]

Definitely not every single page but certainly the meat of it. My question is always if Trump had decided to fade into the sunset after 2020 and removed himself from politics do you think would be at this juncture?

Don't worry, it's rhetorical.

He took and kept documents. Nothing changes that.

 

[TheDoctorWasIn]

My question is always if Trump had decided to fade into the sunset after 2020 and removed himself from politics do you think would be at this juncture?

Yes, absolutely.

 

[Artymoon]

He could make the argument, and it will be laughed out of court. The special counsel won't have to prove any such thing.

Further, if you believe the President can declassify without telling anyone, you must also believe the President can re-classify without telling anyone. The DOJ, enforcement branch of the CURRENT executive, demanded classified documents being held by private citizen Trump. They did so with the authorization of the current president. In your world, Presidents have magical telepathic classification powers. So private citizen Trump had ZERO right to lie, hide, delay, and deny those documents from the agents of President Biden. It does not matter if Trump thinks he declassified them during his term. They were classified when they were demanded and eventually seized, and they are classified now.

As long as said documents weren't statutorily protected, the argument will be that the President has very broad powers of declassification. The reason we are here is not because he had any information at all, it's because he thumbed his nose at them and was a dick about it. And most importantly lining up a run. Hillary set that precedent of nothing to worry about and it was cemented by Biden and Pence. If having classified documents that you shouldn't have were truly a problem, there we be a lot of ex-presidents worried. Not to mention probably everyone at the federal level that has likely stashed something intentionally or not.

 

[TheDoctorWasIn]

Very first charge is that of Willful Retention of Defense Information. If this information is not classified, then what's the frenzy with getting it back?

You understand that the word "classified" does not appear in the statute, right?

Even if Trump cast a magic spell to "declassify" them, he cannot magically transform them from "information related to national defense."

 

[WorldWatcher]

But he can make an argument that he did as President - and can do so just by uttering the words - and the special counsel will have to prove he absolutely didn't for every single document.

He would have to prove "he muttered the words" as an affirmative defense.

Interesting point. FPOTUS#45 has never made a claim in court documents that he declassified the information in question.

WW

 

[Artymoon]

Alright guys, I'm gonna take a break and get some chores done. I'll do my best to keep answering all of your questions.

 

[TheDoctorWasIn]

As long as said documents weren't statutorily protected, the argument will be that the President has very broad powers of declassification

But they are statutorily protected.

The reason we are here is not because he had any information at all, it's because he thumbed his nose at them and was a dick about it.

Yes. Law Enforcement usually calls that "Obstruction of Justice."

 

[WorldWatcher]

Garland assigned Smith in this regard to the unlawful retention of National Defense secrets which apparently doesn't apply to anyone else. This is where the classified/declassified argument will play out.

FPOTUS#45 wasn't charged with taking the documents (just like VP Pence and Senator/VP/Biden). He was charged because as a private citizen her failed to return them to Officers of the United States (NARA, Courts, and FBI) when directed to do so.

WW

 

[SNOWFLAKE]

What distinguishes him is he was President and no one else was.

Ummm, hello??
He was NOT the President when the National Archives requested they be returned and when he was subpoenaed to return them.

 

[Callen]

As long as said documents weren't statutorily protected, the argument will be that the President has very broad powers of declassification. The reason we are here is not because he had any information at all, it's because he thumbed his nose at them and was a dick about it. And most importantly lining up a run. Hillary set that precedent of nothing to worry about and it was cemented by Biden and Pence. If having classified documents that you shouldn't have were truly a problem, there we be a lot of ex-presidents worried. Not to mention probably everyone at the federal level that has likely stashed something intentionally or not.

Trump has not been charged with possessing classified documents. I don't think you know or understand what he is charged with.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Definitely not every single page but certainly the meat of it. My question is always if Trump had decided to fade into the sunset after 2020 and removed himself from politics do you think would be at this juncture?

Don't worry, it's rhetorical.

For the classified documents case?

Ya we would, it has nothing to do with him running for office.

WW

 

[SNOWFLAKE]

Ha ha. Sure you are. Have you read the indictment? Give it a try. It's very clear.

Read?? You expect that lot to read? They just listen to Fox for their talking points, didn't ya know?